Ange in or out?

[thfcsteff]

Just to be clear Steff, always a pleasure "talking" to you. If talking to me becomes exhausting or repetitive I'm sorry.

Fully agree on where we are today. There are reasons why we ended up here, we may disagree on what they are.

Us being short and fatigued after almost two months of severe injury issues was going to be the case no matter what happened in the summer (within reason) imo. Or at any time since Ange came in.

I maintain that our actual squad is better than it's been for years and years. Spence, Gray and Bergvall stepping up has added to an already good squad and plugged holes. I think Odobert will too. Kinsky has too. There are more holes to fill, but they're getting fewer window by window.

The same mate. And absolutelty not! If anyone can be exhaustive on these forums, I'm guilty as charged LOL!

 

[braineclipse]

I did pick up on something Ange said in this pre-match presser. It is about 5 mins 30.

The words were "we don't really have many options apart from throwing untried youngsters in but I don't want to do that TO THEM"

It's an interesting thing to say. Ange is leaving his own 1st teamers in the red zone late in second halves and not relieving them by using his chosen bench to protect them. That is knowing that Ange along with his U21/U18 coaches have agreed a very young profile of bench. As an example, we didn't even put Max Robson 22 in the EL squad. We have a full-back who can play centre half Tyrell Ashcroft 20 who has played well against the men in the national league cup. Cassanova 20 is another. Core U21 players.

I think what we might be seeing is that Wayne Burnett has the normal group that statistically won't ever be 1st team. That means they become important to him in the current situation the U21s find themselves in. They don't therefore logically fill in during a 1st team crisis. That opportunity falls to the younger group because they might eventually be 1st team. However, they are mostly there to make up the numbers in training only as the 1st team manager won't even give them time from the bench. That, in turn, adds to the workload on the available, fit seniors.

I just wonder whether the club has its strategy right here. There is something that doesn't feel optimal.

Most of the players who could perhaps do a job from the academy and U21 team that did so well last season are out on loan.

Those who are left are probably either not good enough or not far enough in their development.

Loaning them out to get them regular game time for their development probation is the right strategy.

Not sure how good those 20 something U21 players are. If they were good enough to do a useful job I assume Ange would have used them by now?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Most of the players who could perhaps do a job from the academy and U21 team that did so well last season are out on loan.

Those who are left are probably either not good enough or not far enough in their development.

Loaning them out to get them regular game time for their development probation is the right strategy.

Not sure how good those 20 something U21 players are. If they were good enough to do a useful job I assume Ange would have used them by now?

We don’t know
In reality he doesnt know either but he is using his experience to make those calls
He did say yesterday he wouldn’t use the kids because it’s unfair on them

 

[Legohamster]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1882359685640020101

 

[braineclipse]

We can include the keeper situation in that. I think that far from getting hammered for not using Spence earlier, Ange deserves respect for bringing him on pre-season and giving him a chance once he realised that he likely was not getting anyone else in those positions in.

Yes, this is Milo's 'floor/ceiling' theory.

He says we had to first raise the floor in the last two windows before working on raising the ceiling now and in the summer (I might be slightly off with timings but essentially you get it). My argument was that if you don't work on both proportionately, you end up repeatedly hitting your head on the ceiling. Which I believe is what we're doing right now.

Yes, there are and were several.

We sold Emerson. I don't think we did that with a plan not to replace him in the squad. Spence replaced him because he impressed Ange in preseason imo.

Not sure I fully understand the floor/ceiling thing...

To me the current situation is primarily because of injuries and fatigue. And our second choice (floor) players not being good enough. Meaning that our ceiling players have been overplayed and thus performing worse.

Of course add Eze (for example) to the current squad without losing out on any other signing and we would be better off. Raising the ceiling and the floor for sure. Add another good enough defender and a good backup GK in the summer instead of in January and we would be even better. Give Lange, Munn and Ange another 100-120m to spend in the summer along with 300k p/we in wages and we would have been better.

But if we hadn't also raised the floor we'd still be in massive trouble. If we hadn't also added top level young players with loads of potential we'd be paying the opportunity cost for years.

We have been working on both floor and ceiling. Should the balance have been different. Should the balance between youth and here and now been different. Maybe. But unless we spent a lot more money there would still be big holes that a two month severe injury crisis would have exposed.

 

[Muttley]

Most of the players who could perhaps do a job from the academy and U21 team that did so well last season are out on loan.

Those who are left are probably either not good enough or not far enough in their development.

Loaning them out to get them regular game time for their development probation is the right strategy.

Not sure how good those 20 something U21 players are. If they were good enough to do a useful job I assume Ange would have used them by now?

No, I don't think it is your last sentence. I don't think Ange is interested in using any player in his first team that can't eventually make the grade. He'd rather have a 16 year old on the bench. He has not adjusted that thinking in extreme circumstances, potentially to the detriment of the welfare of 1st team players. He won't pick the oldest U21s as they've got a foot in the departure lounge. He'll pick the 16/17 year olds but won't put them on the pitch as he's protecting them.

In PL2, we are currently in 23rd place out of 26. There is no relegation though. It is about Cat 1 training facilities I believe. So there shouldn't be a reason not to promote an U21 for that reason.

By the way, this is not me saying I have an answer. I actually don't. What I see is a perpetuating injury problem with one of the root cause being that we never fully utilise the bench. That leaves our on-pitch players in the red zone.

 

[braineclipse]

No, I don't think it is your last sentence. I don't think Ange is interested in using any player in his first team that can't eventually make the grade. He'd rather have a 16 year old on the bench. He has not adjusted that thinking in extreme circumstances, potentially to the detriment of the welfare of 1st team players. He won't pick the oldest U21s as they've got a foot in the departure lounge. He'll pick the 16/17 year olds but won't put them on the pitch as he's protecting them.

In PL2, we are currently in 23rd place out of 26. There is no relegation though. It is about Cat 1 training facilities I believe. So there shouldn't be a reason not to promote an U21 for that reason.

By the way, this is not me saying I have an answer. I actually don't. What I see is a perpetuating injury problem with one of the root cause being that we never fully utilise the bench. That leaves our on-pitch players in the red zone.

I don't know how good those older U21 players are.

League one/two quality? Worse?

Putting them on towards the end of games, with just about all of our games having been in the balance towards the end of the second half recently. I'm not sure that's a good option.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yes, there are and were several.

We sold Emerson. I don't think we did that with a plan not to replace him in the squad. Spence replaced him because he impressed Ange in preseason imo.

Not sure I fully understand the floor/ceiling thing...

To me the current situation is primarily because of injuries and fatigue. And our second choice (floor) players not being good enough. Meaning that our ceiling players have been overplayed and thus performing worse.

Of course add Eze (for example) to the current squad without losing out on any other signing and we would be better off. Raising the ceiling and the floor for sure. Add another good enough defender and a good backup GK in the summer instead of in January and we would be even better. Give Lange, Munn and Ange another 100-120m to spend in the summer along with 300k p/we in wages and we would have been better.

But if we hadn't also raised the floor we'd still be in massive trouble. If we hadn't also added top level young players with loads of potential we'd be paying the opportunity cost for years.

We have been working on both floor and ceiling. Should the balance have been different. Should the balance between youth and here and now been different. Maybe. But unless we spent a lot more money there would still be big holes that a two month severe injury crisis would have exposed.

The key is the ins and outs haven’t increased against the quantity of games
The squad last heat didn’t have the right quality for Ange ball and was short or quantity
We have hope stage quality in swaps but still haven’t upped the quantity
Arguably the only additional body we have from last season is Solanke and now Kinky
It can be argued the following
Lo Celso - replaced by Bervall
Hojberg - gray
Royal - Spence
Dier - Drago
Gil - Odobert

Who is replacing Skipp? He played in 24 games for us last season and we only played 41 (YTD tonight’s is our 33rd game I think)

And there are others who played last season too who I haven’t mentioned because it was small minutes

 

[Muttley]

Yes, there are and were several.

We sold Emerson. I don't think we did that with a plan not to replace him in the squad. Spence replaced him because he impressed Ange in preseason imo.

Not sure I fully understand the floor/ceiling thing...

To me the current situation is primarily because of injuries and fatigue. And our second choice (floor) players not being good enough. Meaning that our ceiling players have been overplayed and thus performing worse.

Of course add Eze (for example) to the current squad without losing out on any other signing and we would be better off. Raising the ceiling and the floor for sure. Add another good enough defender and a good backup GK in the summer instead of in January and we would be even better. Give Lange, Munn and Ange another 100-120m to spend in the summer along with 300k p/we in wages and we would have been better.

But if we hadn't also raised the floor we'd still be in massive trouble. If we hadn't also added top level young players with loads of potential we'd be paying the opportunity cost for years.

We have been working on both floor and ceiling. Should the balance have been different. Should the balance between youth and here and now been different. Maybe. But unless we spent a lot more money there would still be big holes that a two month severe injury crisis would have exposed.

I'm not sure I understand the floor-ceiling thing either. Don't you just buy above your ceiling and sell your floor? Your previous ceiling then becomes your floor. That equates to buying someone that gets into your 1st team at the expense of a quality player that moves to your bench. You should never be worried about hitting your head though. You want your floor and ceiling as close together as possible so the impact of rotation is minimal.

In this period, I feel that's what we're doing. Austin will be the floor. Venom and Kinsky will fight to raise the ceiling. The previous floor of Whiteman will be gone along with Forster. Then Gunter comes out of the academy and gets Austin removed from the club. Happy days.

 

[thfcsteff]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6077551/2025/01/23/tottenham-injury-crisis/

A pretty comprehensive overview with some 'he said/she said' stuff regarding Geoff Scott. If the information about VdV and Romero v Chelsea is true, I wonder how much the pressure valve building would've influenced such a foolish move by Ange...because if he actually did go against medical advice, then it was a huge fudge up on his part.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not sure I understand the floor-ceiling thing either. Don't you just buy above your ceiling and sell your floor? Your previous ceiling then becomes your floor. That equates to buying someone that gets into your 1st team at the expense of a quality player that moves to your bench. You should never be worried about hitting your head though. You want your floor and ceiling as close together as possible so the impact of rotation is minimal.

In this period, I feel that's what we're doing. Austin will be the floor. Venom and Kinsky will fight to raise the ceiling. The previous floor of Whiteman will be gone along with Forster. Then Gunter comes out of the academy and gets Austin removed from the club. Happy days.

I will ask Milo to explain it to me again...I think essentially he was saying you cannot rennovate a house all at once, you have to do it stages.

 

[Muttley]

I don't know how good those older U21 players are.

League one/two quality? Worse?

Putting them on towards the end of games, with just about all of our games having been in the balance towards the end of the second half recently. I'm not sure that's a good option.

Nor do I (know), but I don't have an issue seeing Lanks or Olusesi come on for 10 mins and freshen things up. It could just take one single game like tonight for a couple of them to make an impact to get the manager to see things differently. There is a massive part of trust involved in football.

When you think George Abbott was 17 when he strutted his stuff against Leeds in May 23 under Ryan Mason to see them relegated. We all enjoyed that cameo and weren't about to call in the NSPCC.

I'm hopeful there will be a few lads at the club who could currently do these cameos in these extreme injury circumstances.

 

[billyiddo]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6077551/2025/01/23/tottenham-injury-crisis/

A pretty comprehensive overview with some 'he said/she said' stuff regarding Geoff Scott. If the information about VdV and Romero v Chelsea is true, I wonder how much the pressure valve building would've influenced such a foolish move by Ange...because if he actually did go against medical advice, then it was a huge fudge up on his part.

There were quotes recently from the Hibs physio - was he not saying that Ange would sometimes ignore their recommendations if he felt the player was ready? (And take responsibility for the decision) I can't find the quotes now if anyone has them to hand?

 

[Legohamster]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6077551/2025/01/23/tottenham-injury-crisis/

A pretty comprehensive overview with some 'he said/she said' stuff regarding Geoff Scott. If the information about VdV and Romero v Chelsea is true, I wonder how much the pressure valve building would've influenced such a foolish move by Ange...because if he actually did go against medical advice, then it was a huge fudge up on his part.

Even without that article everyone knew it was a stupid thing to do for the long term and more importantly player welfare.

Doesn't put him in a good light at all

 

[Muttley]

I will ask Milo to explain it to me again...I think essentially he was saying you cannot rennovate a house all at once, you have to do it stages.

Yeah, he's right about that. You don't want to rip out all your bathrooms in one go. You're better off upgrading them one by one for very practical reasons.

Reminds me of the picture. How Ange is feeling at the moment. Still works, but not exactly feeling brand new.

 

[braineclipse]

The key is the ins and outs haven’t hammer against the quantity of games
The squad last heat didn’t have the right quality for Ange ball and was short or quantity
We have hope stage quality in swaps but still haven’t upped the quantity
Arguably the only additional body we have from last season is Solanke and now Kinky
It can be argued the following
Lo Celso - replaced by Bervall
Hojberg - gray
Royal - Spence
Dier - Drago
Gil - Odobert

Who is replacing Skipp? He played in 24 games for us last season and we only played 41 (YTD tonight’s is our 33rd game I think)

And there are others who played last season too who I haven’t mentioned because it was small minutes

Instead of comparing to last season, how many players do we need when in Europe? 25? 2 for each position, an additional GK and a couple of players more.

GK - Vicario, Kinsky, Austin/Forster.

Defense - 8 for 4 positions, including Gray. Porro, Spence, Romero, Dragusin, VdV, Davies, Udogie, Gray.

Midfield - 6 for 3 positions, not including Gray. Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr, Bergvall, Kulusevski and Maddison.

Front three. 7 for 3 positions including Moore. Son, Werner, Solanke, Richarlison, Johnson, Odobert. 8 for 3 if you include Lankshear. 6 for 3 if including none of them.

So 23-25 players depending on if you include Moore and Lankshear. One more if you also include Reguilon. Same numbers in the summer, but Forster instead of Kinsky.

For me more of a "floor" problem still. Forster (pre Kinsky), Reguilon, Lankshear not being good enough or rated enough to take the total to an acceptable number. Werner not being good enough.

And a long term summer strategy trusting young players like Gray, Bergvall, Moore and Lankshear to be part of the first team squad. Counted as bona fide options. Gray and Bergvall have stepped up, Moore maybe will. But it has taken time.

Those players stepping up is the gamble we took. Along with hoping that we didn't need that additional defender (Reguilon) or attacker (Lankshear).

Personally I think we had to take some gambles this summer. We didn't have enough money to properly fix all the squad issues.

One would want a couple of academy lads ready to step up too if needed on top of that.

 

[braineclipse]

Nor do I (know), but I don't have an issue seeing Lanks or Olusesi come on for 10 mins and freshen things up. It could just take one single game like tonight for a couple of them to make an impact to get the manager to see things differently. There is a massive part of trust involved in football.

When you think George Abbott was 17 when he strutted his stuff against Leeds in May 23 under Ryan Mason to see them relegated. We all enjoyed that cameo and weren't about to call in the NSPCC.

I'm hopeful there will be a few lads at the club who could currently do these cameos in these extreme injury circumstances.

I would hope so too.

I think Ange is reluctant to throw in young players into a struggling team. You may be right that he's not adjusted well enough to the situation. But difficult to know.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Instead of comparing to last season, how many players do we need when in Europe? 25? 2 for each position, an additional GK and a couple of players more.

GK - Vicario, Kinsky, Austin/Forster.

Defense - 8 for 4 positions, including Gray. Porro, Spence, Romero, Dragusin, VdV, Davies, Udogie, Gray.

Midfield - 6 for 3 positions, not including Gray. Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr, Bergvall, Kulusevski and Maddison.

Front three. 7 for 3 positions including Moore. Son, Werner, Solanke, Richarlison, Johnson, Odobert. 8 for 3 if you include Lankshear. 6 for 3 if including none of them.

So 23-25 players depending on if you include Moore and Lankshear. One more if you also include Reguilon. Same numbers in the summer, but Forster instead of Kinsky.

For me more of a "floor" problem still. Forster (pre Kinsky), Reguilon, Lankshear not being good enough or rated enough to take the total to an acceptable number. Werner not being good enough.

And a long term summer strategy trusting young players like Gray, Bergvall, Moore and Lankshear to be part of the first team squad. Counted as bona fide options. Gray and Bergvall have stepped up, Moore maybe will. But it has taken time.

Those players stepping up is the gamble we took. Along with hoping that we didn't need that additional defender (Reguilon) or attacker (Lankshear).

Personally I think we had to take some gambles this summer. We didn't have enough money to properly fix all the squad issues.

One would want a couple of academy lads ready to step up too if needed on top of that.

Good post
All fair if we were ever in a position that those numbers were available
I don’t think that was even available for day 1
All was should run with 3/4 injuries because that’s football
We have run with an average of 7
And the key being they have been in 2 positions as we know CB and wide forward
The issue then is the quality drop in those areas has a big effect
And of course we need to y the quality in those areas too

 

[billyiddo]

Even without that article everyone knew it was a stupid thing to do for the long term and more importantly player welfare.

Doesn't put him in a good light at all

The below quotes from the article reads like player welfare is seen as a secondary concern to getting the team playing how he wants as quick as possible

“(The hamstring injuries) are obviously something we want to get on top of but it’s not new to me either,” Postecoglou said in December 2021 after Kyogo Furuhashi was injured in Celtic’s Europa League victory over Real Betis. “The way we play, I understand — and have done at the clubs I’ve been at — that the beginnings are always difficult. We play differently and train differently and it takes players time to adjust to that, and along the way we obviously pay a price.

“But the one thing I’ve never done, and I won’t do in my whole career, is compromise the football team we want to be because we are not quite ready to be there. I’d rather keep going at the pace we are going and it means we are going to have some casualties along the way.”



When I was reading the article first time round I was expecting him to follow up "But the one thing I’ve never done, and I won’t do in my whole career, is compromise..." with something like "the welfare of my players" but he said the complete opposite!!!

 

[braineclipse]

Good post
All fair if we were ever in a position that those numbers were available
I don’t think that was even available for day 1
All was should run with 3/4 injuries because that’s football
We have run with an average of 7
And the key being they have been in 2 positions as we know CB and wide forward
The issue then is the quality drop in those areas has a big effect
And of course we need to y the quality in those areas too

Agreed.

And I think those problems have been compounded further by who has been injured. Not just some of our best players, but vital players in terms of ball progression and creativity.

That's also where the squad is short in terms of quality, particularly among the players who aren't teenagers.

We severely missed a dribbly creative winger profile last season. Brought in Odobert who fits that profile, Moore another one who was heading towards more game time. Still short squad wise, but then both got injured/ill.

We also lack ball progression deep in midfield. Our best non teenager there is Bentancur, who then also has missed most of the season.

Then losing Romero and Vic. With Forster and Dragusin having their weaknesses with passing and being comfortable under pressure.

Had we missed Sarr and Johnson instead of Bentancur and Odobert for example we'd still be feeling the effects of that. But less of a cumulative effect I think. Romero is really important no matter what, but less so with more ball progression in the middle and dribbly creativity wide.