Ange in or out?

[billyiddo]

And you probably didn't see it when he finished fifth with us last season?

What a bizarre thing to say.

We have had 15 managers in 24 years. So that is a change every one point six years. Which is 19-20 months. How can you argue therefore that we won't end up back here again if that is what has happened for a quarter of a century ????

I asked you to clarify what you meant by back here - back where? Chances are, going by league average we'll be moving on to a new manager after a couple of seasons, that's modern football. We've actually bucked the trend on that front with Ange being given 2 full seasons despite the returns being what they are, if he had us around mid table and showing signs of progress then he'd likely have been given a 3rd season, I don't see why that would change for the next manager.

 

[billyiddo]

OH I love the purchases of Gray and Bergvall etc, the future proofing looks better again, but there have been big holes in the squad in terms of quality and even sheer numbers that you cannot ignore surely?

I don't think there are big holes in the squad, I think we have a starting XI of varying quality and good* cover for most if not all positions.

* relative to what would be seen as an average position in the table for us, eg 6th

 

[Surfless]

I don't think there are big holes in the squad, I think we have a starting XI of varying quality and good* cover for most if not all positions.

* relative to what would be seen as an average position in the table for us, eg 6th

Fair comment on the revamping of the squad, I agree we are better now than we were when Ange arrived. But we have played a lot of this season with an 18 year old midfielder in central defence, no recognised left back and at one point a very over hill 37 year old keeper, not to mention the lack of forward options if Solanke hasn't been fit. This has not been for a week, at times it's been for months

These are failings of the system we have, failings of Lange, of Munn, of Paratici in whatever informal position he's been holding, and failings of Ange too.

 

[Legohamster]

Fair comment on the revamping of the squad, I agree we are better now than we were when Ange arrived. But we have played a lot of this season with an 18 year old midfielder in central defence, no recognised left back and at one point a very over hill 37 year old keeper, not to mention the lack of forward options if Solanke hasn't been fit. This has not been for a week, at times it's been for months

These are failings of the system we have, failings of Lange, of Munn, of Paratici in whatever informal position he's been holding, and failings of Ange too.

We've signed a back up keeper and a new CB so those two gaps are covered

The recruitment isn't currently an issue to get to be in the top 7 if guided correctly

I don't really want to go over it again, but why did we have to play gray and CB and how much did Ange cause the injuries of the cbs

Proper squad management and o don't believe it happens.

 

[billyiddo]

Fair comment on the revamping of the squad, I agree we are better now than we were when Ange arrived. But we have played a lot of this season with an 18 year old midfielder in central defence, no recognised left back and at one point a very over hill 37 year old keeper, not to mention the lack of forward options if Solanke hasn't been fit. This has not been for a week, at times it's been for months

These are failings of the system we have, failings of Lange, of Munn, of Paratici in whatever informal position he's been holding, and failings of Ange too.

We have had an incredible number of injuries tbf - i think if you give any other club bar Chelsea our injury list then they are going to be having to patch up in places. It isn't uncommon for clubs to be short in a couple of areas. Arsenal are playing CMs at CF and CBs at full back, City don't have CF cover for Haaland or adequate DM cover for Rodri and that's without our level of injury.

 

[Baleforce]

Fair comment on the revamping of the squad, I agree we are better now than we were when Ange arrived. But we have played a lot of this season with an 18 year old midfielder in central defence, no recognised left back and at one point a very over hill 37 year old keeper, not to mention the lack of forward options if Solanke hasn't been fit. This has not been for a week, at times it's been for months

These are failings of the system we have, failings of Lange, of Munn, of Paratici in whatever informal position he's been holding, and failings of Ange too.

We looked better then than we have since the “first choice” injured players have come back imo.

Not sure the injury excuse is as valid since results and performances have continued to decline.

 

[Raziel]

You are listing things that in the case of modric and berba are more than a decade ago. Since then we have had manager after manager give the board a list of players and get the budget alternative. Gedson instead of Fernandes, even vicario instead of Raya. It's a big part of why we are where we are. You can't underinvest for a decade and then sack managers for not being good enough.

Those people saying "Ange has had £300m" yes he has, but we needed to spend cash five years ago backing Jose or even Poch, then the decline would never have happened.

We went from Kyle Walker and Keiran Trippier to Emerson Royal in 4 years.

Again, I'm not levy out, I just want accountability and acceptance of mistakes.

Vic is a better GK than Raya, just like VDV is a better CB than Todibo, just like Bergvall will be a better midfielder than whoever was the "expensive alternative" that fans wanted, just like Deki (Juve reject) is the closest thing we have a elite level player in squad. Fan judgement of when the club is being cheap vs. actually buying the right player is so far off it's useless. (unless, see point below, you want to go back 15 years)

You are doing the standard Spurs fan brick and cherry picking stuff from different eras, we didn't have £300m to spend with Jose (Covid ring a bell? the club was posting losses of >£150m), we didn't have it when we had a 33K seater stadium. Spurs pre BMJ, pre Poch, post stadium and covid are really three entirely different clubs/prospects/finances.

Emerson Royal was a more expensive signing than Kyle Walker and Trippier together and doubled, so really not understanding the point you are making.

Tell me what your plan would be, besides some vague accountability requirement while defending the worse manager in our PL era?

 

[billyiddo]

Vic is a better GK than Raya, just like VDV is a better CB than Todibo, just like Bergvall will be a better midfielder than whoever was the "expensive alternative" that fans wanted, just like Deki (Juve reject) is the closest thing we have a elite level player in squad. Fan judgement of when the club is being cheap vs. actually buying the right player is so far off it's useless. (unless, see point below, you want to go back 15 years)

You are doing the standard Spurs fan brick and cherry picking stuff from different eras, we didn't have £300m to spend with Jose (Covid ring a bell? the club was posting losses of >£150m), we didn't have it when we had a 33K seater stadium. Spurs pre BMJ, pre Poch, post stadium and covid are really three entirely different clubs/prospects/finances.

Emerson Royal was a more expensive signing than Kyle Walker and Trippier together and doubled, so really not understanding the point you are making.

Tell me what your plan would be, besides some vague accountability requirement while defending the worse manager in our PL era?

Part of a having a good transfer department is having multiple options for whichever area of the squad you are looking to strengthen through the market - we as a club & a fanbase want to target the best players but those players will more often than not have other suitors and if those suitors are better positioned than us then that is where those players will be choosing to go all things being equal. Why would Raya choose us over Arsenal? Why would Neto choose over Chelsea? They won't and that is how it is until we are in a position on the pitch to make these players look at us and think we're the place to be.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Vic is a better GK than Raya, just like VDV is a better CB than Todibo, just like Bergvall will be a better midfielder than whoever was the "expensive alternative" that fans wanted, just like Deki (Juve reject) is the closest thing we have a elite level player in squad. Fan judgement of when the club is being cheap vs. actually buying the right player is so far off it's useless. (unless, see point below, you want to go back 15 years)

You are doing the standard Spurs fan brick and cherry picking stuff from different eras, we didn't have £300m to spend with Jose (Covid ring a bell? the club was posting losses of >£150m), we didn't have it when we had a 33K seater stadium. Spurs pre BMJ, pre Poch, post stadium and covid are really three entirely different clubs/prospects/finances.

Emerson Royal was a more expensive signing than Kyle Walker and Trippier together and doubled, so really not understanding the point you are making.

Tell me what your plan would be, besides some vague accountability requirement while defending the worse manager in our PL era?

 

[Raziel]

Part of a having a good transfer department is having multiple options for whichever area of the squad you are looking to strengthen through the market - we as a club & a fanbase want to target the best players but those players will more often than not have other suitors and if those suitors are better positioned than us then that is where those players will be choosing to go all things being equal. Why would Raya choose us over Arsenal? Why would Neto choose over Chelsea? That is how it is until we are in a position on the pitch to make these players look at us and think we're the place to be

Yes, but like I said, the amount of noise re VDV (as example) being the cheap option (and Todibo didn't have the complication of going somewhere better) just gets forgotten the moment we actually saw VDV play. And then we resort to cherry picking to prove a point.

Danso, Kinsky, Solanke, Wilson, Bergvall, Gray, Yang, Johnson, Maddison, Dragusin, Vicario, VDV, Udogie, Vuskovich, Solomon, Spence, Veliz, Porro, Richarlison, Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr, Deki

The hit to miss ration on the last 3 seasons is statistically off the chart, are there gaps? yes, have we indexed too heavily to youth? probably, but in a period where squad refresh (volume) was the biggest need, it's a great start (yes, if we don't build from here, it's wasted)

 

[billyiddo]

Yes, but like I said, the amount of noise re VDV (as example) being the cheap option (and Todibo didn't have the complication of going somewhere better) just gets forgotten the moment we actually saw VDV play. And then we resort to cherry picking to prove a point.

I'm not really sure that matters in the context - if the cause for complaint is that we didn't secure our primary target then the secondary target turning out to be better doesn't change the fact we initially missed out - we were just fortunate with how the cards fell.

But like I say - having solid back up options or multiple options for one position means that you can be confident in moving down/across your list and getting a good player regardless so it's not important for me. You may even find that the player that is scouted to be the better player is the one that costs less and as supporters we assume the order they are preferred due to the cost.

 

[lurker of old]

Again, I'm not levy out, I just want accountability and acceptance of mistakes.

I think the appointment of the new CEO is effectively "Levy out" of the football side. It's the Chairman's recognition that he can't be a full-time property developer and also run the footballing side of things. And I do believe that any half-decent manager would look at our squad and think he could do much, much better than Ange with those players at his disposal.

 

[Sandman]

id like to see the young players get a run out for the rest of the season. we have 5 games left now that kind of mean nothing. how are we going to see some of these players for next season if we dont play them.

much more minutes for:

Grey - in the DM position
Moore - off the bench in most games
Odobert - Played well last night and needs more game time

 

[Jurgen the German]

Vic is a better GK than Raya, just like VDV is a better CB than Todibo, just like Bergvall will be a better midfielder than whoever was the "expensive alternative" that fans wanted, just like Deki (Juve reject) is the closest thing we have a elite level player in squad. Fan judgement of when the club is being cheap vs. actually buying the right player is so far off it's useless. (unless, see point below, you want to go back 15 years)

You are doing the standard Spurs fan brick and cherry picking stuff from different eras, we didn't have £300m to spend with Jose (Covid ring a bell? the club was posting losses of >£150m), we didn't have it when we had a 33K seater stadium. Spurs pre BMJ, pre Poch, post stadium and covid are really three entirely different clubs/prospects/finances.

Emerson Royal was a more expensive signing than Kyle Walker and Trippier together and doubled, so really not understanding the point you are making.

Tell me what your plan would be, besides some vague accountability requirement while defending the worse manager in our PL era?

Can’t agree that Vicario is better than Raya. Vicario has too many weaknesses in his game. He’s the new Heurelho Gomes.

 

[Raziel]

I'm not really sure that matters in the context - if the cause for complaint is that we didn't secure our primary target then the secondary target turning out to be better doesn't change the fact we initially missed out - we were just fortunate with how the cards fell.

But like I say - having solid back up options or multiple options for one position means that you can be confident in moving down/across your list and getting a good player regardless so it's not important for me. You may even find that the player that is scouted to be the better player is the one that costs less and as supporters we assume the order they are preferred due to the cost.

Are we? this is one of those weird media/fan narratives that people seem to believe that I'm not sure I buy

Very big difference between having
- a list of potential players, lets say 4 that are potential targets vs.
- a list of option #1, option #2, option #3, option #4 that you go through the list in sequence

Same brick with managers by the way, this idea it's some preference sequence and we only look at #2 if we didn't get #1 would disqualify all conversations of personality fit, buy in to club/project, fit to the way manager wants to play, etc.

I actually have worked for a company that does in sequence hiring vs. looking at a group of candidates and comparing them not just against the requirements but each other, The sequence model is a sure fire way to hire the wrong person.

 

[harr1984]

Vic is a better GK than Raya, just like VDV is a better CB than Todibo, just like Bergvall will be a better midfielder than whoever was the "expensive alternative" that fans wanted, just like Deki (Juve reject) is the closest thing we have a elite level player in squad. Fan judgement of when the club is being cheap vs. actually buying the right player is so far off it's useless. (unless, see point below, you want to go back 15 years)

You are doing the standard Spurs fan brick and cherry picking stuff from different eras, we didn't have £300m to spend with Jose (Covid ring a bell? the club was posting losses of >£150m), we didn't have it when we had a 33K seater stadium. Spurs pre BMJ, pre Poch, post stadium and covid are really three entirely different clubs/prospects/finances.

Emerson Royal was a more expensive signing than Kyle Walker and Trippier together and doubled, so really not understanding the point you are making.

Tell me what your plan would be, besides some vague accountability requirement while defending the worse manager in our PL era?

Vicario is not a better keeper than Raya, and I'm not sure what you think Todibo has to do with anything. It was Tapsoba, the Leverkusen CB who was the apparent first choice CB we wanted and is a better defender than VDV but does not have his pace.....

 

[Raziel]

Vicario is not a better keeper than Raya, and I'm not sure what you think Todibo has to do with anything. It was Tapsoba, the Leverkusen CB who was the apparent first choice CB we wanted and is a better defender than VDV but does not have his pace.....

Been through it in the Vic thread

- Raya was statically the 2nd worse keeper in league last season (errors leading to goals), his penalty "saving" technique is a fudging internet meme, the only "top GK" statistics he ever features on are save percentage (so does Sanchez at Chelsea who is brick) and long ball kicking. He's a decent keeper, nothing more.

 

[Bishop]

Let's be honest though. Who would have a problem with Ange if we did the basics at the back right and stopped shipping goals?

The top 6 range after 33 games is 27-44 goals conceded. We're at 51.

The equivalent goals scored range is 58-75 but 5 of those teams are in a 58-64 range, with only Liverpool as an outlier on 75. Even though we can berate our forwards for not scoring enough we are right in that top 6 range.

I find it hard to defend Ange as he simply doesn't do the right things to defend properly.

Whilst I do agree and truly I wanted it to work with Ange. I do think it would take some relatively minor adjustments to make his system more productive, i do think that part of the issue is we wouldn't score the number of goals we do without the slightly suicidal way we've played for the majority of his tenure and he knows that. So it's a bit of a tradeoff, goals and sometimes control of a game at the cost of allowing golden opportunities for the opposition.

Ange isn't stupid, he knows what his system generates and all credit to him there as he has a largely mediocre group of attackers far exceeding what should be expected of them in terms of goal return. He can't get us to defend properly and keep the goals, it's either or and he's chosen to go with the belief that his system will win out. It takes a degree of arrogance to believe that despite the evidence but then that arrogant belief in his system is what has got him to where he is now so I do understand that.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Been through it in the Vic thread

- Raya was statically the 2nd worse keeper in league last season (errors leading to goals), his penalty "saving" technique is a fudging internet meme, the only "top GK" statistics he ever features on are save percentage (so does Sanchez at Chelsea who is brick) and long ball kicking. He's a decent keeper, nothing more.

What is Vicario good at other than shot stopping? He’s terrible at set pieces, his kicking is getting worse, he can’t catch the ball, he berates the more inexperienced players.

 

[Surfless]

We have had an incredible number of injuries tbf - i think if you give any other club bar Chelsea our injury list then they are going to be having to patch up in places. It isn't uncommon for clubs to be short in a couple of areas. Arsenal are playing CMs at CF and CBs at full back, City don't have CF cover for Haaland or adequate DM cover for Rodri and that's without our level of injury.

Yes but just because other clubs have it too doesn't make our situation right does it?

Listen I'm here justifying to the Ange out phalanx why I said that I'm not behind sacking him. I'm not trying to pick holes in every decision we had made or haven't made. I am however pointing to the fact that under the owners we have gone backwards due to several key decisions having been gotten wrong in the last 5 - 10 years.