Ange in or out?

[Junior19]

Doesn't really work as an analogy imv - using insulting/strong language while discussing someones performance as a sportsman is not the same as just outright writing abusive posts about them and certainly not the same as sending someone direct abuse, a very warped view to conflate that all together.

To me it is the same. If you can't say it straight to the persons face, you shouldn't write it either. Not anonymously, under pseudonym or in any way, shape or form.

I agree that there are differences between sending direct abuse and "venting ones feelings on a board", but the problem is that the one enables the other. Normalizing that kind of vitrol and that kind of language in the common space brings us down a road we really don't want to go.

The internet has changed all of this in an incomprehensible way. Where our previous generations made snide remarks to their colleagues on the factory or at the office after the game, and had a max range of 10-15 people who were willing to listen, and could influence one or two in a lightyear if they were lucky, we can reach the world. All of us!

 

[thfcsteff]

Online abuse directly aimed at people via their social media accounts is clearly different to people on message boards discussing them among eachother.

...until 'friends' or 'collegues' start to let people know they're getting repeatedly battered in online forums. You know those 'helpful' folks who love to make sure people are 'fully informed'...

Nobody believes there shouldn't be freedom to criticise and share strong opinions. But you said it is 'different when talking about people than to them.'
If you don't say someone directly that you think they're (for want of a poor phrase) a 'slag' but it becomes the topic of conversation among a whole group of people, I'd say that is as abusive in its own right.

I suspect you are trying to keep your opinion here focussed on sports? In this case, Spurs? Again, I am trying to clarify your exact meaning because I know people who have been very, very affected by both online abuse and repeated negative comments on public forums.

 

[thfcsteff]

To me it is the same. If you can't say it straight to the persons face, you shouldn't write it either. Not anonymously, under pseudonym or in any way, shape or form.

I agree that there are differences between sending direct abuse and "venting ones feelings on a board", but the problem is that the one enables the other. Normalizing that kind of vitrol and that kind of language in the common space brings us down a road we really don't want to go.

The internet has changed all of this in an incomprehensible way. Where our previous generations made snide remarks to their colleagues on the factory or at the office after the , and had a max range of 10-15 people who were willing to listen, and could influence one or two in a lightyear if they were lucky, we can reach the world. All of us!

I agree. Sadly, I know people whose mental health has suffered as a result of this. It's far more common (sadly) than people believe.

 

[harr1984]

I can't believe with all that is out there now about mental health, and the constant news about people committing suicide because of things posted online about them that we are needing to have this conversation....

 

[thfcsteff]

I can't believe with all that is out there now about mental health, and the constant news about people committing suicide because of things posted online about them that we are needing to have this conversation....

I certainly think online makes it easier to get lost in a rant. I am guilty. In truth I know nothing of Mourinho as a man, yet I have been spectacularly (and most likely ignorantly and unfairly) rude about him on this forum. Similarly Conte. I would like to think I'd have the stones to share my opinions in person; who knows if the moment came? I'd back myself yet the chance of a hypocrite's turn is most humanly possible.

I think I know what Bill was saying, yet I agree with you and others as words matter wherever they're said or written and shared.

These exchanges are a reminder to myself to try and be a better person in the couple of examples above where I do not cover myself in glory...

 

[billyiddo]

...until 'friends' or 'collegues' start to let people know they're getting repeatedly battered in online forums. You know those 'helpful' folks who love to make sure people are 'fully informed'...

Nobody believes there shouldn't be freedom to criticise and share strong opinions. But you said it is 'different when talking about people than to them.'
If you don't say someone directly that you think they're (for want of a poor phrase) a 'slag' but it becomes the topic of conversation among a whole group of people, I'd say that is as abusive in its own right.

I suspect you are trying to keep your opinion here focussed on sports? In this case, Spurs? Again, I am trying to clarify your exact meaning because I know people who have been very, very affected by both online abuse and repeated negative comments on public forums.

The difference here for me is that the 'abuse' is just tacked on to criticism of the job he is doing rather than being the subject matter itself. I'd imagine Ange would be more concerned about the fact that he is receiving such widespread criticism of the job he is doing than a few unsavoury comments that pad out the posts.

I treat posting online to having a chat among friends - though probably toned down a bit from some WhatsApp or pub chats - with that in mind i don't find anything to be beyond the pale on here, generally, posts that do tend to get reported and dealt with or pulled up directly in the same way you would if you heard something discriminatory IRL

 

[Muttley]

I want to be clear though. Ange hasn't helped himself in all of his many public appearances. Perhaps I was one of the first posters to call him out on his persona in front of the cameras. He has talked down at the journo's and fans from day 1 and acts like he is the messiah and as if none of us know what we're talking about. He talks about how he's doing things differently which is also an insult to the prior managers who have major trophies on their CVs.

There has never been an ounce of public humility about him having to learn in this new environment. All we've heard is just daft narrative after daft narrative and a whole load of evading the actual football question. I've talked a lot about him preferring to be the philosopher and the life coach, rather than the football coach. I think now we're all seeing that he is the emperor with no clothes when it comes to operating in this environment.

So all of the above isn't abuse. It's opinion. I just don't want him at the club anymore as he's not up to the task. I do want him to de-stress and reenergise though. It's been a really tough gig and probably a very steep learning experience for him that could help him in future roles. That is, if he has the humility to accept the things he didn't do so well.

 

[Daisuk]

Their confidence is destroyed at this stage, they have no belief in what they are doing. As a result making silly mistakes and taking wrong choices. When players reach that stage the only thing the manager should be doing is getting back to basics, keep the team solid and the play as simple as possible. But Ange won't change and still insists on doing things that aren't working.

Absolutely. Like we did in Frankfurt. No faffing about at the back.

 

[harr1984]

Their confidence is destroyed at this stage, they have no belief in what they are doing. As a result making silly mistakes and taking wrong choices. When players reach that stage the only thing the manager should be doing is getting back to basics, keep the team solid and the play as simple as possible. But Ange won't change and still insists on doing things that aren't working.

The weird thing is when Ange has done a more pragmatic setup we have performed quite well, so it is not that he is incapable. Frankfurt being the most recent example, but there have been a few others that escape me now. I remember the Emirates Marketing Project home game last season which we narrowly lost but were unlucky to as one example. But in subsequent games he then reverts to type....

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I agree. Sadly, I know people whose mental health has suffered as a result of this. It's far more common (sadly) than people believe.

That's an interesting question, and one I find it hard to form a clear opinion on. Spontaneously, I'd tend to think that what people write on an online forum is more or less the same as the kind of things you'd say in a conversation with friends.

I've had beer cans thrown at me on stage (those were the days!) because the audience didn't like the performance. If you're not ready to deal with that kind of things, if you don't have the thick skin for it (which is totally understandable), then it's probably better not to be involved in any kind of public activity.

That said, it's true that mental health has become a real issue, and at this point, it's hard to completely brush it aside. Maybe we should also question our societies as a whole, and why this issue is more important today than it was thirty years ago, for example.

Personally, I don't feel like Postecoglou is more hated than Mourinho or Gorgeous George. I tend to place freedom of speech above individual well-being, but I understand that others might see it differently and, in any case, I feel it's a topic worth thinking about.

 

[harr1984]

That's an interesting question, and one I find it hard to form a clear opinion on. Spontaneously, I'd tend to think that what people write on an online forum is more or less the same as the kind of things you'd say in a conversation with friends.

I've had beer cans thrown at me on stage (those were the days!) because the audience didn't like the performance. If you're not ready to deal with that kind of things, if you don't have the thick skin for it (which is totally understandable), then it's probably better not to be involved in any kind of public activity.

That said, it's true that mental health has become a real issue, and at this point, it's hard to completely brush it aside. Maybe we should also question our societies as a whole, and why this issue is more important today than it was thirty years ago, for example.

Personally, I don't feel like Postecoglou is more hated than Mourinho or Gorgeous George. I tend to place freedom of speech above individual well-being, but I understand that others might see it differently and, in any case, I feel it's a topic worth thinking about.

I don't think that the issue is more important today than it was thirty years ago - I think that because of the technological world we now live in more people share their experiences which has empowered people to talk more openly and publicly about issues they suffer from than back in the day when it was much more taboo and did not have the same platforms we do now to discuss such matters.

And it is also because of technology why an attitude of 'its just words on a screen' and thinking it can't impact people if not directly said to people is wrong - there is no hiding place for anything that is said online anymore, and word travels so fast and to so many places in the internet bubble. Sure, whoever the 'abuse' is directed at might not be reading this forum, but it doesn't mean they won't end up seeing it via other means. And from what I see of this board, most posters are above personally abusing an individual over a game of fudging football - just all feels a bit unnecessary to me but each to their own I guess....

 

[Legohamster]

The weird thing is when Ange has done a more pragmatic setup we have performed quite well, so it is not that he is incapable. Frankfurt being the most recent example, but there have been a few others that escape me now. I remember the Emirates Marketing Project home game last season which we narrowly lost but were unlucky to as one example. But in subsequent games he then reverts to type....

How much is that down to Ange and how much is it down to the players doing what they think is best?

He's said himself that he won't change and we have 2 seasons of proof, he said after the league cup semi he wouldn't ever try and sit back and defend a lead.

Doesn't really add up.

 

[Grays_1890]

How much is that down to Ange and how much is it down to the players doing what they think is best?

He's said himself that he won't change and we have 2 seasons of proof, he said after the league cup semi he wouldn't ever try and sit back and defend a lead.

Doesn't really add up.

The Frankfurt defending was the first time I have seen us like that under him, bodies on the line, people working their absolute socks off and we still offered up a multitude of decent chances, the ex Leeds lad could have had 3 in quick succession. I reckon the players played a massive part in that given the game was the exception not the rule

 

[Gutter Boy]

I want to be clear though. Ange hasn't helped himself in all of his many public appearances. Perhaps I was one of the first posters to call him out on his persona in front of the cameras. He has talked down at the journo's and fans from day 1 and acts like he is the messiah and as if none of us know what we're talking about. He talks about how he's doing things differently which is also an insult to the prior managers who have major trophies on their CVs.

There has never been an ounce of public humility about him having to learn in this new environment. All we've heard is just daft narrative after daft narrative and a whole load of evading the actual football question. I've talked a lot about him preferring to be the philosopher and the life coach, rather than the football coach. I think now we're all seeing that he is the emperor with no clothes when it comes to operating in this environment.

So all of the above isn't abuse. It's opinion. I just don't want him at the club anymore as he's not up to the task. I do want him to de-stress and reenergise though. It's been a really tough gig and probably a very steep learning experience for him that could help him in future roles. That is, if he has the humility to accept the things he didn't do so well.

Nuno appeared just out of his depth. But he had humility and decency. I never remember anyone playing the man not the ball with him.

Ange on the other hand has been rude, chippy and odorous the whole way through. He deserves being called out bluntly for his lack of ability.

 

[Bishop]

The Frankfurt defending was the first time I have seen us like that under him, bodies on the line, people working their absolute socks off and we still offered up a multitude of decent chances, the ex Leeds lad could have had 3 in quick succession. I reckon the players played a massive part in that given the game was the exception not the rule

I've come to think that on the few occasions we've displayed disciplined defensive displays that they have just happened due to the game flow as opposed to it being due to purposeful tactical instruction.

 

[Raziel]

How much is that down to Ange and how much is it down to the players doing what they think is best?

He's said himself that he won't change and we have 2 seasons of proof, he said after the league cup semi he wouldn't ever try and sit back and defend a lead.

Doesn't really add up.

I think he's tried to be more pragmatic, but simply lacks a a genuine plan B, a way to switch the system to.

I also think while he hasn't lost the dressing room in the classic sense, the players are lost, their belief/confidence and maybe more importantly their motivation to give everything to the system is gone.

I think in the Frankfurt game, it's as simple as
- The players know that the entire season was/is based on 3 games left, 3 games to save a season and make themselves a name (any team that wins Spurs next trophy will get a lot of kudos), so you got a throw the bodies on line type of performance.
- To @Bishop's point, sometimes the sheer pressure from opponent forces us (the players) to respond in the only way they can, which is sit in, play more responsibly

This team has been drilled to play a flawed system for 2 years now, with no drilled plan B, plan B seems to be swap a few players and maybe not attack as suicide oriented but really with no model for making us difficult to play against, to be hard to score against.

 

[Robspur12]

The difference here for me is that the 'abuse' is just tacked on to criticism of the job he is doing rather than being the subject matter itself. I'd imagine Ange would be more concerned about the fact that he is receiving such widespread criticism of the job he is doing than a few unsavoury comments that pad out the posts.

I treat posting online to having a chat among friends - though probably toned down a bit from some WhatsApp or pub chats - with that in mind i don't find anything to be beyond the pale on here, generally, posts that do tend to get reported and dealt with or pulled up directly in the same way you would if you heard something discriminatory IRL

If we are getting criticism for chanting (not that I have btw), "you don't know what you're doing" at matches or calling him a snake oil salesman then tbh it's reaching the point where saying anything negative will be frowned upon. These are fairly benign statements. They are are not comparable to the horrific abuse targeted at Brennan Johnson, Saka and Rashford for example.

I understand that abuse can damage people's mental health. But we live in a world where you can't eliminate it, a little bit of resilience is needed to survive. It should still be ok to comment on Ange and his personality in my opinion.

One should refrain from overtly hateful stuff or writing anything that breaks the law. But it does feel that some fairly benign criticism of Ange himself is almost off limits to some. Generally I think this message board gets it right.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

So I finally changed my vote last night - and gave it more consideration this morning (in case I was being biased after seeing the scousers celebrating (obviously better than it being the gooners but still a sickening sight, albeit it I was more than a tad jealous as well)) and am sticking with Ange Out. Tbh I know it’s the only viable outcome and I also know that has been the case for some time but I was hopeful things might change and having missed a big chunk of our games during the first three months of this year I wanted to see for myself how things looked once I was back going to/watching games. And it’s clearly no change or improvement overall.

The irony is that yesterday’s game was one where I had absolutely zero expectation in terms of result (like most of us I suspect), even more so given the game was just a few days before our SF which I expect to be given priority. Yet it was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Not because we lost but because of the manner in which we lost. No fight (maybe players saving themselves for EL?). Our defending is abysmal. We don’t look coached or drilled. Our midfield is hit and miss (not intending to criticise either or Archie or Bergvall yesterday, just generally). We don’t cover our defenders but we don’t have the passing or creativity to make something happen often enough. Our attacking is totally predictable and therefore easy to defend against. Let us play out wide and by the time we’re ready to play the ball into the box, or cut-in, the opposition defence is there waiting for us. I don’t even have a tactical bone in my body - I just enjoy football and love Spurs but even I can see some of the flaws. It’s just so depressing and even if Ange does somehow lead us to EL victory, the thought of more of the same way of playing next year doesn’t bear thinking about.

I feel quite sad about it as he seemed like a breath of fresh air, and his philosophy is exactly what I would like to see play out. And it feels singularly wrong to dispense of a manager if he wins us a European trophy. But it just isn’t working. I mean win the EL and maybe he gets a shot next season (see I’m softening already!) but then if (or most likely when) it all goes wrong again we will probably have missed out on getting a preferred replacement in, no pre-season for that person. And we will start to see players downing tools I am sure.

So I’m afraid end of season is time to part ways.

Just to add : listening to various news items today talking about Liverpool securing the title after “thrashing” Spurs was particularly galling.

 

[lurker of old]

I feel quite sad about it as he seemed like a breath of fresh air, and his philosophy is exactly what I would like to see play out. And it feels singularly wrong to dispense of a manager if he wins us a European trophy. But it just isn’t working.

Have to say I'm not one of those who dislike Ange on a personal basis. I like his vibe. The problem is that he can't win football matches because we can't defend. I thought there was something quite telling in something he said in a presser, about liking the unpredictability of football, the "it could go either way". That's what is wrong with him as a coach. I'd rather win a boring one nil at home than lose but with a sprinkling of "ooh, we nearly scored that time". So sadly for me (and mindful of the strictures not to abuse people) he's just a fat Aussie clown shoe who is way out of his depth and conning a living.

 

[Mikey10]

Nuno appeared just out of his depth. But he had humility and decency. I never remember anyone playing the man not the ball with him.

Ange on the other hand has been rude, chippy and odorous the whole way through. He deserves being called out bluntly for his lack of ability.

Incredibly, he’s STILL going on in press conferences about the City game last year during the run-in. He comes across to me as petty and always desperate to have the last word. His treatment of journalists, including female ones, have marked him out as a bit of a bully too. He’s the first manager we’ve ever had who has left me completely numb while watching his teams.

I’m afraid I cannot wait for him to go.