Clement Lenglet

[metalgear]

You're really under rating Dier. He brings leadership and organisation to the role that goes beyond just his individual contribution.
He's the one that's always talking and giving instructions.

I see him shouting and pointing, I just don't see the leadership or the ability when he is called up to do some actual defending. But I get it he's a nice guy and a senior member of the team and somewhat respected and good for team cohesion.

Similarly I think we tend to underestimate how an attack minded cb can actually transform a team by adding another threat in attack and a more dynamic line in supporting a counter attack.

Luiz the clown was instrumental in Conte's Chelsea. So different from Dier. And not just the wingbacks.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I like Dier, but to be fair just because a player is pointing and shouting doesn’t mean they are showing good leadership - they could be talking a load of nonsense for all we know….

Not at this level. You can see he’s the leader back there. I wouldn’t trust Dier in a 2 because his limitations are badly exposed, not unlike Romero, but in a 3, he’s excellent.

 

[DubSpur]

I see him shouting and pointing, I just don't see the leadership or the ability when he is called up to do some actual defending. But I get it he's a nice guy and a senior member of the team and somewhat respected and good for team cohesion.

Similarly I think we tend to underestimate how an attack minded cb can actually transform a team by adding another threat in attack and a more dynamic line in supporting a counter attack.

Luiz the clown was instrumental in Conte's Chelsea. So different from Dier. And not just the wingbacks.

We don't need an attacking CB instead of Dier, it's not what Conte wants. It's the two outside CBs that provide the attacking threat while Dier sits deepest.

 

[metalgear]

We don't need an attacking CB instead of Dier, it's not what Conte wants. It's the two outside CBs that provide the attacking threat while Dier sits deepest.

i think its all three , with the ccb marshalling and putting through balls over the top to catch the opponents off guard. that was how Luiz went from clown to prince under Conte. given the defensive shield around him, Luiz was able to do the crazy stuff without fear.

BTW for Xhaka's goal - did you see how Lenglet appeared from the LCB to RCB position to attempt to block as Dier was totally beaten by the reverse pass. (Schoolboy tactic, we were too easily beaten).

That's the kind of mobility and awareness that i think we will see more of as Lenglet gets settled into his role.

 

[Lilbaz]

i think its all three , with the ccb marshalling and putting through balls over the top to catch the opponents off guard. that was how Luiz went from clown to prince under Conte. given the defensive shield around him, Luiz was able to do the crazy stuff without fear.

BTW for Xhaka's goal - did you see how Lenglet appeared from the LCB to RCB position to attempt to block as Dier was totally beaten by the reverse pass. (Schoolboy tactic, we were too easily beaten).

That's the kind of mobility and awareness that i think we will see more of as Lenglet gets settled into his role.

He moved less than 5 yards in those two pics?

 

[metalgear]

He moved less than 5 yards in those two pics?

in the first pic the guy in the red circle is xhaka, he got past Dier as if he wasn't there.

 

[DeanoAustin]

i think its all three , with the ccb marshalling and putting through balls over the top to catch the opponents off guard. that was how Luiz went from clown to prince under Conte. given the defensive shield around him, Luiz was able to do the crazy stuff without fear.

BTW for Xhaka's goal - did you see how Lenglet appeared from the LCB to RCB position to attempt to block as Dier was totally beaten by the reverse pass. (Schoolboy tactic, we were too easily beaten).

That's the kind of mobility and awareness that i think we will see more of as Lenglet gets settled into his role.

Bit harsh. Dier is showing Martinelli along the box because it looks like he'll work a shooting position. Xhaka takes it off his toe going the other way. Not much Dier can do to adjust. I'd question Romero more for allowing Martinelli in that position in the first place. Also doesn't help our right wing back isn't there to cover for Romero as he's been sent off for a brainless tackle.

 

[braineclipse]

I see him shouting and pointing, I just don't see the leadership or the ability when he is called up to do some actual defending. But I get it he's a nice guy and a senior member of the team and somewhat respected and good for team cohesion.

Similarly I think we tend to underestimate how an attack minded cb can actually transform a team by adding another threat in attack and a more dynamic line in supporting a counter attack.

Luiz the clown was instrumental in Conte's Chelsea. So different from Dier. And not just the wingbacks.

Last 11 games last season we conceded 5 goals. First 9 games this season we've conceded 10. 15 goals conceded in our last 20 league games after we settled in to Conteball. 0.75 goals against per game, would add up to 28.5 goals against over a season. That's really rather good.

Dier has been just about ever present in that. Different wing backs, wide centre backs, always Dier CCB.

I think he has a lot of the qualities we'd want from a CCB. Big, strong in the air, physical when needed. Good organisational skills. Good positioning. Good (not great) on the ball playing out from the back. Can be aggressive when he wants to, can be more passive, positional when he wants to.

Sure, there are better players out there. But I think he's a very good fit and a very good player in this role.

An even better ball playing CB in that role would help us, no doubt. But only help us overall if he also matches Dier at all that other stuff he does well.

To improve what we do with the ball deep, when facing varying levels of pressure, there are several easier ways to do that imo. RWB, Kulusevski backup/rotation option for example.

I think Dier was rather good before Conte took over too. He's been really good, close to excellent since we settled into Conteball. I think he would be rather difficult/expensive to find an upgrade on.

 

[metalgear]

Last 11 games last season we conceded 5 goals. First 9 games this season we've conceded 10. 15 goals conceded in our last 20 league games after we settled in to Conteball. 0.75 goals against per game, would add up to 28.5 goals against over a season. That's really rather good.

Dier has been just about ever present in that. Different wing backs, wide centre backs, always Dier CCB.

I think he has a lot of the qualities we'd want from a CCB. Big, strong in the air, physical when needed. Good organisational skills. Good positioning. Good (not great) on the ball playing out from the back. Can be aggressive when he wants to, can be more passive, positional when he wants to.

Sure, there are better players out there. But I think he's a very good fit and a very good player in this role.

An even better ball playing CB in that role would help us, no doubt. But only help us overall if he also matches Dier at all that other stuff he does well.

To improve what we do with the ball deep, when facing varying levels of pressure, there are several easier ways to do that imo. RWB, Kulusevski backup/rotation option for example.

I think Dier was rather good before Conte took over too. He's been really good, close to excellent since we settled into Conteball. I think he would be rather difficult/expensive to find an upgrade on.

Fair enough.
I just think we can be much better and can enjoy Conteball when we have a proper CCB who can support the attack.
With 3 at CBs you will expect them to do more, or else settle for the consequence of having one less in midfield or attack.

 

[DubSpur]

Fair enough.
I just think we can be much better and can enjoy Conteball when we have a proper CCB who can support the attack.
With 3 at CBs you will expect them to do more, or else settle for the consequence of having one less in midfield or attack.

You don't have one less in midfield or attack. The WBs provide the extra there.

 

[braineclipse]

Fair enough.
I just think we can be much better and can enjoy Conteball when we have a proper CCB who can support the attack.
With 3 at CBs you will expect them to do more, or else settle for the consequence of having one less in midfield or attack.

I think the responsibility for supporting the attack by getting forward more falls mostly on the wide centre backs. In Romero Davies and Lenglet we have players fairly well suited to that task. Though I think we're starting to mix it up a bit in that regard with Dier occasionally pushing up a bit to mix it up.

Supporting the attack by better passing, sure. Better passing is always better. A top level passer/ball playing CCB would make a difference. I just don't think that's a big enough issue right now to be a top priority. And would most likely be prohibitively expensive if not a top priority. I think we'd get more positive effects by spending that money in other positions.

That's probably at least partly because I rate Dier higher than you do in this role.

 

[Bullet]

@metalgear you should listen to the people in this thread. Don't just ignore what everyone says, actually listen.
Then watch these 5 seconds

 

[metalgear]

You don't have one less in midfield or attack. The WBs provide the extra there.

Most teams have 2 CBs holding the defence line when we attack, we have 3.

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[metalgear]

@metalgear you should listen to the people in this thread. Don't just ignore what everyone says, actually listen.
Then watch these 5 seconds

I don't ignore I just have a different view.
I think people underestimate how Verts and Toby were the foundation of our free flowing football and also added a vital unpredictability in attack directly where Dele and Kane excelled.

Its a different formation but I feel our 3 aren't contributing as much.

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[braineclipse]

Most teams have 2 CBs holding the defence line when we attack, we have 3.

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Disagree.

Most teams push 5, perhaps at times 6, players properly forward when attacking. Others more in a supporting role. Playing a part in passing/play, but being in position to stop counter attack, mostly being behind or on the ball.

From what I've seen/read the most common is to have 5 players "back", though "back" may include well into the opposition half depending on where the ball is and how deep the opposition sit. Either as 2 deepest, two slightly further forward or the other way around.

When we attack it's not like our back three are a static back three. Both wide centre backs fairly regularly push up, either into a supporting role or even further forward. We also at times have a midfielder dropping in next to Dier meaning both wide centre backs become equivalent to full backs in a back four.

Most teams do this kind of thing when attacking. The attacking structure is rather often not the same as the numerical formation description.

 

[metalgear]

Disagree.

Most teams push 5, perhaps at times 6, players properly forward when attacking. Others more in a supporting role. Playing a part in passing/play, but being in position to stop counter attack, mostly being behind or on the ball.

From what I've seen/read the most common is to have 5 players "back", though "back" may include well into the opposition half depending on where the ball is and how deep the opposition sit. Either as 2 deepest, two slightly further forward or the other way around.

When we attack it's not like our back three are a static back three. Both wide centre backs fairly regularly push up, either into a supporting role or even further forward. We also at times have a midfielder dropping in next to Dier meaning both wide centre backs become equivalent to full backs in a back four.

Most teams do this kind of thing when attacking. The attacking structure is rather often not the same as the numerical formation description.

yes its dynamic and players move up to fill the space. yet our back 3 have a similar impact to teams that play a back 2.
i don't disagree that it COULD be like what you say it SHOULD be but it isn't at the moment for us.
One consistent observation, is if our back three is pushing up to support - we should have less of a problem with 2 in the midfield getting outnumbered/outpressed.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't ignore I just have a different view.
I think people underestimate how Verts and Toby were the foundation of our free flowing football and also added a vital unpredictability in attack directly where Dele and Kane excelled.

Its a different formation but I feel our 3 aren't contributing as much.

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I agree with your point here. The two of them were fantastic and having quality ball playing centre backs is a significant boost. Since Paratici we've mostly been linked with, and only signed, centre backs that are good or very good on the ball.

Personally I think having no outright weak spots on that is crucial, having top class ball playing ability is very good, but not quite crucial.

 

[braineclipse]

yes its dynamic and players move up to fill the space. yet our back 3 have a similar impact to teams that play a back 2.
i don't disagree that it COULD be like what you say it SHOULD be but it isn't at the moment for us.
One consistent observation, is if our back three is pushing up to support - we should have less of a problem with 2 in the midfield getting outnumbered/outpressed.

Just to be clear we're talking about situations where we have controlled possession with the opponents in a low or medium block?

I don't really see a lot of issues with our deeper play in these situations. More a lack of Kulusevski (or a proper Kulusevski option) and real attacking quality from RWB.

 

[DubSpur]

Most teams have 2 CBs holding the defence line when we attack, we have 3.

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They don't, you seem obsessed that a formation can only be one thing, it's not, it depends on what the coach wants.

We keep three at the back, when attacking, that allows the WBs to move forward. You mention Toby and Verts in another post, guess what, under Poch that was mostly three holding the back. Dier would drop in to make a 3 with Toby and Verts pushing wide allowing Rose and Walker to push forward. Under Conte a lot of the time one of the CBs will be pushing up too, at times Toby or Verts would do the same. Different ways to achieve the same thing.

Most teams have a variation with more than just the two CBs covering.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

It doesnt matter how Dier plays he has been identified as our pantomime villian by many and they will ignore what he does well for the team and be ready to jump on any perceived error. I like to see all our players talking to each other in games you can only achieve your aims as a team if you all communicate with each other.