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ENIC

Bishop said:
Its not really legacy prestige that Liverpool and Arsenal have going for them, its a legacy of success and they have had a decent amount of that success in the last 25 years while we have been owned by ENIC. Again for me I do not believe a primary driving of ENIC's day to day Tottenham operations is an intention or burning desire to win the league. It would be nice sure, they wouldn't say no but its really not the only thing they plan for in terms of Tottenham.
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Thats what I meant...that prestige has been created via a trophied history.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I think that's a fair summary. And, if you want Spurs to really be competitive in the transfer market, ENIC are never going to do that. Which sort of adds validity to the core of what the ENIC-Out people are arguing.

While I get what you're saying on Liverpool and Arsenal, will we ever back a manager the way Arsenal did with, say, Declan Rice? Will we ever back a manager like Liverpool did in 2018 with Alisson, Shaqiri, Keita, and Fabinho while VVD joined six months previously?

Irving Scholar said in his book (yeah, yeah I know) that he always felt "we are Tottenham Hotspur. We should be competing for top players". That's what led to him going for Gazza, Lineker and Paul Stewart. I know there are a lot of arguments against Scholar but when was the last time we showed any ambition like that?
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And led us to the brink of nearly going bankrupt and leading us into Maxwell getting his grubby hands on us. IF that had happened we may not have a club we all love.
 
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DeanoAustin said:
I think that's a fair summary. And, if you want Spurs to really be competitive in the transfer market, ENIC are never going to do that. Which sort of adds validity to the core of what the ENIC-Out people are arguing.

While I get what you're saying on Liverpool and Arsenal, will we ever back a manager the way Arsenal did with, say, Declan Rice? Will we ever back a manager like Liverpool did in 2018 with Alisson, Shaqiri, Keita, and Fabinho while VVD joined six months previously?

Irving Scholar said in his book (yeah, yeah I know) that he always felt "we are Tottenham Hotspur. We should be competing for top players". That's what led to him going for Gazza, Lineker and Paul Stewart. I know there are a lot of arguments against Scholar but when was the last time we showed any ambition like that?
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I think if things were falling in place with a manager (like it was with Poch) 2-3 seasons in we would. This time we are in a position to do that compared to Pochs time. As the correct way of building would mean the base level of squad was good and we'd be looking for the special final ingredients.

(That's the raise the floor then raise the ceiling theory btw)
 
Bishop said:
As long as we then use that transfer fee to fund newer purchases then that's all good. Use the money well and you don't even necessarily miss the player who has left.

The idea should be to keep brining in young talent, try them out make a evaluation of who you think is going to make it, move on the ones who won't. At the same time there should always be a ready up and coming in your most prominent positions so that if you do decide to cash in the loss in overall performances in minimal and at the same time you then add quality in other areas you might be weaker in.

Now that's never been the way ENIC actually function but that's the stated aim and I believe the mo for Lange. So let's see how we go about it this time.
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But this not really what happens.
Buying and Selling players is part of the fabric,
We don’t expect players to stay for life.
The issue is why they leave.

At spurs it’s because of a realisation that under this ownership, truly competing consistently is not the primary concern.

Agreed let’s see how we go this time but given that we have been on progressive regression since the peak Poch years, it’s not something I’ll be banking on
 
metalgear said:
is there anything stopping thfc from restructuring the business so that the football club and sports facilities will be separate from the property business? a lower sticker price and a simpler toy might attract more oligarchs who don't think much of north london property
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Pretty sure they have made it plain thats it's only the football club up for sale. No property apart from training ground and stadium come with the pkg.

All borrowed on our dime bit doesn't belong to us.
 
parklane1 said:
And led us to the brink of nearly going bankrupt and leading us into Murdoch getting his grubby hands on us. IF that had happened we may not have a club we all love.
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Do you mean Maxwell? If you do mean Murdoch he probably would have invested heavily in the early 90s to help promote his new product, the Premier League or the Premiership as it was known back then. Not a fan of his politics (but then thats likely the case with Lewis as well) but would that have been such a bad thing football wise?
 
RigorMortis said:
But this not really what happens.
Buying and Selling players is part of the fabric,
We don’t expect players to stay for life.
The issue is why they leave.

At spurs it’s because of a realisation that under this ownership, truly competing consistently is not the primary concern.

Agreed let’s see how we go this time but given that we have been on progressive regression since the peak Poch years, it’s not something I’ll be banking on
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I don't believe in ENIC any more than you do. I just think maybe the penny has finally dropped with them, but yes I will absolutely only ever believe when I see it. The test for me is when one of our bigger names is approached. How do we react, do we dig our heels in and request a ridiculous fee to sate our ego or do we do business and use that sale to further our own interests. For me that absolutely means buying and selling players, I don't have the sentimentality and it's not how the truly big clubs work. You need squad churn to keep ideas fresh and to keep players on their toes.
 
Bishop said:
Do you mean Maxwell? If you do mean Murdoch he probably would have invested heavily in the early 90s to help promote his new product, the Premier League or the Premiership as it was known back then. Not a fan of his politics (but then thats likely the case with Lewis as well) but would that have been such a bad thing football wise?
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Yes i did🙃, heavy night last night is my only excuse.
 
parklane1 said:
And led us to the brink of nearly going bankrupt and leading us into Maxwell getting his grubby hands on us. IF that had happened we may not have a club we all love.
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Yeah, that's why I sort of put a disclaimer next to Scholar's name because obviously there were all sorts of issues with his running of the club. Maybe I should have used the 1960s and us getting Jimmy Greaves as an example...
 
Bishop said:
Is that gain worth the inherent financial risk necessary to gain it? I think we can say based on the historical evidence that in ENIC's view, it is not.

On the other point I don't think he does it on purpose, he just has no real football acumen and the risks he perceives make certain types of moves unattractive to ENIC, if there is no glaring need to rock the boat why do so?
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He rocks the boat how?
He fires people he perceives are not delivering
Good and bad, that’s his call as owner
 
Bishop said:
I don't believe in ENIC any more than you do. I just think maybe the penny has finally dropped with them, but yes I will absolutely only ever believe when I see it. The test for me is when one of our bigger names is approached. How do we react, do we dig our heels in and request a ridiculous fee to sate our ego or do we do business and use that sale to further our own interests. For me that absolutely means buying and selling players, I don't have the sentimentality and it's not how the truly big clubs work. You need squad churn to keep ideas fresh and to keep players on their toes.
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I agree

Clubs sell players.
United sold Ronaldo
Arse sold Henry and Viera
Barca sold Messi, couldn’t keep hold of Figo

The only club I can think of that don’t really sell players they want to keep are Real Madrid so it’s a club of one.

The point is for me, is that we sell players because they come to the realisation they won’t achieve much here and the cycle continues.

We then will buy another young and upcoming player but once they mature they will eventually out grow us.

Ultimately for ENIC, does it really matter.
I hope that you’re right in that the penny has finally dropped but I see nothing but a club going backwards
 
metalgear said:
i don't think enic is taking money out of the club but they are using the club to invest in property to increase their equity.
the properties may not be worth much but the whole idea is regeneration of the area that will lead in greater capital appreciation
i am going to guess that these properties were purchased by thfc and loans of the purchase as well as development is borned by thfc - adding to interest payments.
my line of thinking is split the business, easier for to sell off the football side. Also non-football people to stay employed and do what they like and are good at. unfortunately this means levy has to peg his salary to the value of the remaining properties and not the performance of thfc (it was never about football results first anyway)
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You can’t split it because any property is secured ok the club as an asset
And it’s land, not property until it’s developed
 
DeanoAustin said:
I think that's a fair summary. And, if you want Spurs to really be competitive in the transfer market, ENIC are never going to do that. Which sort of adds validity to the core of what the ENIC-Out people are arguing.

While I get what you're saying on Liverpool and Arsenal, will we ever back a manager the way Arsenal did with, say, Declan Rice? Will we ever back a manager like Liverpool did in 2018 with Alisson, Shaqiri, Keita, and Fabinho while VVD joined six months previously?

Irving Scholar said in his book (yeah, yeah I know) that he always felt "we are Tottenham Hotspur. We should be competing for top players". That's what led to him going for Gazza, Lineker and Paul Stewart. I know there are a lot of arguments against Scholar but when was the last time we showed any ambition like that?
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Lets add nuance again

- Do I think we will ever back a manager with a big purchase? yes, Ndombele, Richi, Solanke (last 2 showing we can still do it post Ndombele PTSD). And I expect that number will go up as the need for quantity of players per window goes down
- The piece that the club balances (I expect) that no one typically acknowledges is, Arsenal has given Arteta 800M, all spent after the cup win he lucked out on in his takeover season, that 800M has effectively got them top 4 in 5 years.

That last point is the piece everyone misses .. we have spent 500M in five years, Scum have spent 800M in same timeframe and yet?

Spurs will not suddenly become successful if ENIC takes a little more risk, or new owners come in that are willing to spend like Arsenal & Liverpool, it will take City/Chelsea/Saudi Sportswashing Machine type money and what comes with that .. and yes, I get that is a trade most fans will happily make.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
The Enic model is what it is...there is no secret to it. Even less so now the stadium is finished and the debt re-financed.

And that model has its limitations (that we all know is money). That limits our 'ambition', when directly compared to City United and Chelsea.

They are not not trying again because of Ndombele...they are quite evidently trying a new approach. With the intention to find a way to do better within our limitations.

It's hard for us (in comparison) to swallow £60m failures, it has a long tail effect if that investment goes to zero. Similarly
we are probably hoping (praying) the £170m we've paid on Solanke Richie BJ at worst breaks even.

We can financially at least be in the ball park of Liverpool and Arsenal, so that gives hope that success can come (or at least be in touch), although we don't have the legacy prestige they have.
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It's not a new approach. It's the old approach that saw us buy the likes of walker and bale.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Yeah, that's why I sort of put a disclaimer next to Scholar's name because obviously there were all sorts of issues with his running of the club. Maybe I should have used the 1960s and us getting Jimmy Greaves as an example...
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The landscape has changed a lot since the 60s and even the 80s under Scholar. It's a bit different trying to compete with oil countries than with the local millionaire.
 
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