ENIC

[billyiddo]

These other teams were not in charge of one of the traditional Big 5 clubs (Spurs) and thus did not have access status and geographic position as leverage. Its actually so much more impressive for Leicester to win a PL and FA Cup than it would have been if we had done the same.

We aren't little old Birmingham or Portsmouth, our context is different and better. That ENIC are unable to actually make the decisions that leverage our status into something tangible is just another example of their failing.

I believe 100% we were going to lose that final but we gave ourselves absolutely 0 chance by sacking the man who loves being the underdog in finals and tactically out matching better teams with the novice that is Mason. Its simply a stupid decision in football terms, yet another in a litany that have come before.

Sky & PL money wiped out the value of the traditional big 5 mate, that's the point the game changed from that point onward - that's why Chelsea and City leap frogged us.

Sky + PL & CL created the top 4 - we missed out on that due to (as @Raziel's post explains) mismanagement in the 80s/90s then City bought their way in a little while after. That's been the crux of my argument.

How has the other unmentioned traditional big 5 club fared over this same period? Hmmmm

 

[Muttley]

Like I have said previously the data/results from the last 20 odd years show that unless you are spending in line with City through to the Arsenal/Chelsea then you are not going to be picking up trophies. So different owners would highly likely have made no difference to our return over the same period.

To cover some of what @Bishop posted - sure different owners 'may' have made different decisions at key times that 'may' have garnered better results but would those different owners have made all the other decisions that put us in the position we have been in where we are considered part of the top 6 rather than the rest? Going by the fact we are the only club who have consistently battled in that part of the table i would say the evidence clearly suggests not.

Most of those "other owners" of smaller clubs who have won trophies have seen it all come together but have never managed to maintain it. Leicester being the best example. They're back off to the Championship and know they've been so lucky not to have a load of points deducted.

What we're not getting from ENIC though is the word you used earlier.....consistency.

We reduce our chances of winning trophies by not having a single direction and therefore we keep doing project restarts. Just look at the huge churn our club has been through in these last 3 or 4 years.

I think most fans will be happier when they see some consistency. I think it's starting to happen in my opinion. Levy is a man on a purpose to rebuild the leadership setup and make the most of these revenue streams. What's enthusing is that the top 2 teams in the PL run to a P&L. They're not financed by billionaires or entire countries like others.

 

[Baleforce]

Most of those "other owners" of smaller clubs who have won trophies have seen it all come together but have never managed to maintain it. Leicester being the best example. They're back off to the Championship and know they've been so lucky not to have a load of points deducted.

What we're not getting from ENIC though is the word you used earlier.....consistency.

We reduce our chances of winning trophies by not having a single direction and therefore we keep doing project restarts. Just look at the huge churn our club has been through in these last 3 or 4 years.

I think most fans will be happier when they see some consistency. I think it's starting to happen in my opinion. Levy is a man on a purpose to rebuild the leadership setup and make the most of these revenue streams. What's enthusing is that the top 2 teams in the PL run to a P&L. They're not financed by billionaires or entire countries like others.

Up until this season, we’ve arguably been the most consistent team in the country, we were 4/5 pretty much every year for ages.

Other clubs had a wider position variance.

 

[Bishop]

Sky & PL money wiped out the value of the traditional big 5 mate, that's the point the game changed from that point onward - that's why Chelsea and City leap frogged us.

Sky + PL & CL created the top 4 - we missed out on that due to (as @Raziel's post explains) mismanagement in the 80s/90s then City bought their way in a little while after. That's been the crux of my argument.

How has the other unmentioned traditional big 5 club fared over this same period? Hmmmm

Everton have had significantly worse ownership than we have had in the PL era so there plight is what it is.

The crux of my argument is that mo ey alone is not the cause of the solution, intelligent usage of resources is the way forward and it's something we have never done well. Whether it was letting stagnate or not refreshing when the opportunity was there we simply do not have good football side stewardship.

If you think finances are the be all and end all then you must think there is no point as there are 7 or 8 clubs with either more resources than ourselves or with more willingness to spend with outside investment.

 

[billyiddo]

Everton have had significantly worse ownership than we have had in the PL era so there plight is what it is.

The crux of my argument is that mo ey alone is not the cause of the solution, intelligent usage of resources is the way forward and it's something we have never done well. Whether it was letting stagnate or not refreshing when the opportunity was there we simply do not have good football side stewardship.

If you think finances are the be all and end all then you must think there is no point as there are 7 or 8 clubs with either more resources than ourselves or with more willingness to spend with outside investment.

Money creates a situation whereby the odds have been significantly stacked against anyone but the aforementioned clubs, demonstratably more so than at any other point in history. In order to circumvent that disadvantage you need a run of extreme good fortune and/or years of good work with no mistakes being made - and with that in mind no one has actually managed to do so consistently, so there is no yardstick to even show that it can be done.


That said for us this only really describes our position up to and including around 2020ish - since stadium revenue has put us on a more even playing field with the '5' we absoloutely should be looking to compete with them.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Most of those "other owners" of smaller clubs who have won trophies have seen it all come together but have never managed to maintain it. Leicester being the best example. They're back off to the Championship and know they've been so lucky not to have a load of points deducted.

What we're not getting from ENIC though is the word you used earlier.....consistency.

We reduce our chances of winning trophies by not having a single direction and therefore we keep doing project restarts. Just look at the huge churn our club has been through in these last 3 or 4 years.

I think most fans will be happier when they see some consistency. I think it's starting to happen in my opinion. Levy is a man on a purpose to rebuild the leadership setup and make the most of these revenue streams. What's enthusing is that the top 2 teams in the PL run to a P&L. They're not financed by billionaires or entire countries like others.

Under ENIC we have been consistent if you look at the history of finishes and semi final defeats

 

[Bishop]

Money creates a situation whereby the odds have been significantly stacked against anyone but the aforementioned clubs, demonstratably more so than at any other point in history. In order to circumvent that disadvantage you need a run of extreme good fortune and/or years of good work with no mistakes being made - and with that in mind no one has actually managed to do so consistently, so there is no yardstick to even show that it can be done.


That said for us this only really describes our position up to and including around 2020ish - since stadium revenue has put us on a more even playing field with the '5' we absoloutely should be looking to compete with them.

So essentially you are echoing my thoughts that great leadership is what is needed to succeed. My contention is we haven't had that as demonstrated by the numerous own goals ENIC have continuously made.

And let's be clear you're the one arguing for consistency not me. Why can't we just once win the league like Leicester or a cup or similar? We have a better foundation all of those teams, with good leadership and actual win might take this club up a level. Instead for attempting to hit a glass ceiling rather than breaking though it.

 

[billyiddo]

So essentially you are echoing my thoughts that great leadership is what is needed to succeed. My contention is we haven't had that as demonstrated by the numerous own goals ENIC have continuously made.

And let's be clear you're the one arguing for consistency not me. Why can't we just once win the league like Leicester or a cup or similar? We have a better foundation all of those teams, with good leadership and actual win might take this club up a level. Instead for attempting to hit a glass ceiling rather than breaking though it.

I'm saying money wins out in the end and there's no evidence that without more of it we would have fared any better.
.

 

[Bishop]

I'm saying money wins out in the end and there's no evidence that without more of it we would have fared any better.
.

And I'm saying good decision making is the difference make. With your viewpoint what's the point? We don't have more money than the top 4 aren't going to anytime soon. So we might as well pack it then?

 

[billyiddo]

And I'm saying good decision making is the difference make. With your viewpoint what's the point? We don't have more money than the top 4 aren't going to anytime soon. So we might as well pack it then?

If it was just good decision making then why has no one else done it? There must be a real lack of good decision makers out there in your world if that's all it takes.

 

[Bishop]

If it was just good decision making then why has no one else done it? There must be a real lack of good decision makers out there in your world if that's all it takes.

Leicester have done it, Birmingham have done it, Portsmouth have done it, Wigan did it.

None of them sacked their manager a week before the final! You keep missing the point.

 

[billyiddo]

Leicester have done it, Birmingham have done it, Portsmouth have done it, Wigan did it.

None of them sacked their manager a week before the final! You keep missing the point.

If those clubs are the marker than we have done it also?

I'm talking more than a one off trophy or two.

 

[Baleforce]

Leicester have done it, Birmingham have done it, Portsmouth have done it, Wigan did it.

None of them sacked their manager a week before the final! You keep missing the point.

which of those clubs would you trade place with, even this season?

do Portsmouth and wigan even exist anymore?

 

[billyiddo]

which of those clubs would you trade place with, even this season?

do Portsmouth and wigan even exist anymore?

Those clubs found the secret to success and had owners that created a winning culture that over comes financial disparity - there's no way they just dropped off without a trace

 

[Bishop]

If those clubs are the marker than we have done it also?

I'm talking more than a one off trophy or two.

Not since 2008. Leicester have won two trophies bigger trophies than we have since 91 in fact. I said to you earlier the discussion isn't about consistency, you're trying to pivot to that but that isn't the conversation. The conversation is that when given an opportunity to succeed ENIC have repeatedly walked in the opposite direction.

 

[Baleforce]

Not since 2008. Leicester have won two trophies bigger trophies than we have since 91 in fact. I said to you earlier the discussion isn't about consistency, you're trying to pivot to that but that isn't the conversation. The conversation is that when given an opportunity to succeed ENIC have repeatedly walked in the opposite direction.

They’ve also been relegated repeatedly.

How many CL campaigns have they had?

What league are they in next season?

You want to swap owners with them.

 

[Kandi1977]

Leicester have done it, Birmingham have done it, Portsmouth have done it, Wigan did it.

None of them sacked their manager a week before the final! You keep missing the point.

If it's decision making that won it for them, what about now then? How bad must that have been. They're relegated ffs! Again!

 

[Bishop]

If it's decision making that won it for them, what about now then? How bad must that have been. They're relegated ffs! Again!

Id take relegation and a title win if I'm Leicester to be honest. There is glory in actually winning the PL in probably the most shocking title ever over just being an ever present also ran.

The whole point of this is to actually win. Too many fans seems to have forgotten that. Its competitive football meaning a competition and at the end of the competition there is a winner. You don't get participation points.

 

[Kandi1977]

Id take relegation and a title win if I'm Leicester to be honest. There is glory in actually winning the PL in probably the most shocking title ever over just being an ever present also ran.

The whole point of this is to actually win. Too many fans seems to have forgotten that. Its competitive football meaning a competition and at the end of the competition there is a winner. You don't get participation points.

The point is to be in a position to be able to win, and then be in a position to have a chance of doing it again. Not get relegated constantly.

 

[Bishop]

The point is to be in a position to be able to win, and then be in a position to have a chance of doing it again. Not get relegated constantly.

No the point is to actually win, until we do that I'm not hearing any criticism of Leicester's actual win.

Let's win even just once before we start talking about consistency because we are indeed consistent, consistently not winning.