Hillsborough Disaster

[scaramanga]

As I say, I think we must be very different.

Actually, what I said isn't quite true - none of those things would have resulted in the same outcome.

Only a public witch hunt could result in the outcome we currently have. Any of my options would have come to a far more balanced conclusion. These are angry scousers though, there's no room for nuanced opinions.

 

[thfcsteff]

Some of our own fans have said similar and caused fights amongst ourselves - I don't think you can single out the police for that kind of behaviour.


You're right, they should have done better and they didn't. For me, that falls a very long way short of the criminal prosecutions that those awful people up there are calling for.

You also have to take into account the fact that their decisions/actions were all framed around the general behaviour of football fans at the time. Whilst there was a need to see the fans into the ground safely, there was also a need to protect innocent fans and police from trouble makers. The police and stadium staff would have been equally negligent to just let the fans do what they wanted.

It might be difficult for some of us to see, but football fans were a very dangerous group, that had to be treated as such. My perspective on this is probably a little more removed than most as I don't really associate with football fans outside of football itself. Most of my friends/colleagues dislike football and I have a very clear view of how the outside world saw us.


I wasn't there, but I've seen enough of it to know how rife it was. Again, the fans paying at the gates need to take a huge amount of responsibility for what happened there - you can't just blame the police for not stopping it.


I'm not. Those vindictive bastards will now go for criminal prosecutions against people who were (whether they got it right or wrong) just trying to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.

I also find it very difficult to be delighted for people who make their grief so noisily public. Much like with the death of Princess Diana, people seem to have lost a sense of decorum.

I think the other points have been discussed between us before mate, but I do want to focus on the two bold-faced ones. You are absolutely correct, the general behaviour of society/football fans was not fantastic. Which is why there should've ben more diligence in planning a match-day as big as this, with contingencies and plan Bs in place. Failing that, people doing their jobs inside and outside the stadium would've been enough. Why was there no provision in place to delay the game in order to safely sort the issues out?

The second point is something which became spun and re-spun by media to the point that the issue became a political ()if you will pardon the pun) football, and a convenient way in which to usher in the all-seater stadium a bit quicker (something Jimmy Hill had been onto for sometime). Thanks to these situations/tragedies, terracing was outlawed at top-level matches, when terracing itself was not the issue as much as how crowd flow was controlled onto terraces. It was always more desirable to have all-seater stadia for a variety of reasons (financial being one of them)...

 

[thfcsteff]

to echo @scaramanga and @glasgowspur, the trouble makers, of which there were unquestionably many at every single football match of the era, seem to have been completely exonerated from any personal responsibility

any spurs fan who bribed a turnstile operator to be given entry without a ticket is a stupid clam, it shows the kind of selfish entitlement still prevalent in football fans today, many think they have a right to something, to be somewhere, to be heard, that they somehow have a degree of ownership because they have decided to associate with a particular business, its ridiculous

I would say it was quite simply human nature and fans who saw an opportunity finding a way to get in. I also saw fans helping each other in via the 'slot' windows in the stairwell towers and helping them scale fences. All sorts. Mostly young blokes. None of them would think about 'capacity' and whatnot, they'd think 'Hoddle!' and not want to miss it!

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

One shouldn't generalise too much about large groups of people.
Some of the fans were innocent, well behaved etcetera. Some were utter drunken tw@ts on the rampage. Most were between these two extremes.
Some of the police were trying their hardest, treating people well etcetera. Some were negligent and enjoyed shoving people around. Most were between these two extremes.

It's a shame that the far extreme of BOTH groups contributed to this disaster; you can't blame just the fans nor just the police.

Agree but you can't condone the actions of senior police officer to force junior officers to change their notes so that any blame for the handling of the incident does not reflect on their ability to manage the situation. Unfortunately British history is littered with such incidents with "our betters" getting it wrong with massive cost of lives of expendable people and it would all be a lot simpler if we all just believe what were told. These people all love to sit at the top table, meet the great and the good, collect their gold plated pensions and the odd gong thats going but don't want to expect the responsiblity when anything goes wrong. They hold public office and though they chose to ignore it they are responsible to us the people they serve, not government. I always remember senior officer saying the british police carryout their duites with the consent of the british people.

 

[scaramanga]

Agree but you can't condone the actions of senior police officer to force junior officers to change their notes so that any blame for the handling of the incident does not reflect on their ability to manage the situation. Unfortunately British history is littered with such incidents with "our betters" getting it wrong with massive cost of lives of expendable people and it would all be a lot simpler if we all just believe what were told. These people all love to sit at the top table, meet the great and the good, collect their gold plated pensions and the odd gong thats going but don't want to expect the responsiblity when anything goes wrong. They hold public office and though they chose to ignore it they are responsible to us the people they serve, not government. I always remember senior officer saying the british police carryout their duites with the consent of the british people.

Trouble is that in this case, people are conflating deliberate wrongdoing (cover up of mistakes) with the death of people at the event (mistakes made with good intentions).

The end result of that is that we end up with people believing that the punishment for death by deliberate wrongdoing on the day (prison) is applicable where the only deliberate wrongdoing is in the cover up, for which the appropriate action is ending their employment and possibly taking away pension benefits.

 

[a spur from swansea]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

Some myths clearly explained .....end of the day the police,council and sheffield wednesday had 8 years to clear their act after our semi final there but as usual the people at the top only cared about money,prestige and power.

That area can be seen now was served by a poilce force in the 80s/90's and 00's that was rotten to the core,hillsborough,the miners strike and recently the sex scandal of girls in social care.

 

[scaramanga]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

Some myths clearly explained .....end of the day the police,council and sheffield wednesday had 8 years to clear their act after our semi final there but as usual the people at the top only cared about money,prestige and power.

The idea that someone looking for money or prestige would join the police force at any level

That area can be seen now was served by a poilce force in the 80s/90's and 00's that was rotten to the core,hillsborough,the miners strike and recently the sex scandal of girls in social care.

The behaviour of the police was excellent during the miners' strike. Far more restrained than it could or probably should have been.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

The idea that someone looking for money or prestige would join the police force at any level


The behaviour of the police was excellent during the miners' strike. Far more restrained than it could or probably should have been.

Delusional

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Trouble is that in this case, people are conflating deliberate wrongdoing (cover up of mistakes) with the death of people at the event (mistakes made with good intentions).

The end result of that is that we end up with people believing that the punishment for death by deliberate wrongdoing on the day (prison) is applicable where the only deliberate wrongdoing is in the cover up, for which the appropriate action is ending their employment and possibly taking away pension benefits.

Quite right, when one of the chaps get it wrong have a quiet word in the club and let him keep a low profile for awhile, after all they were only plebs and there's plenty more of them the way they reproduce. Bring back Empire Day and let's have a review The Representation of the People Act and get all the hoi polloi back in their place.

 

[Grays_1890]

Your supposed sympathy seems to be with caveats which I would suggest makes it insincere

Thats an utterly garbage comment, just because I don't agree with who should shoulder the blame

I have total sympathy towards the families because one fact in all this is people lost their lives and people lost their loved ones. That is not open for dispute.

But I repeat, the statement "did fans contribute to the deaths - no" is crap, I am sorry but that us my view.

What I also have issue with is people totally ignoring the facts of football beyond this, if you took Hillsborough out of history and looked at Liverpool fans of the 70s and 80s its a known fact that they were some of the nastiest in Europe and as Englands sole representatives in Europe for much of it they spread that "love" around. Now add Hillsborough back into history and those facts don't change, thats not a vendetta against Liverpool because I feel the same way about West Hams ICF. Its just the white elephant in the room when you discuss Liverpool, Liverpool fans and Hillsborough at the same time.

 

[scaramanga]

Thats an utterly garbage comment, just because I don't agree with who should shoulder the blame

I have total sympathy towards the families because one fact in all this is people lost their lives and people lost their loved ones. That is not open for dispute.

But I repeat, the statement "did fans contribute to the deaths - no" is crap, I am sorry but that us my view.

What I also have issue with is people totally ignoring the facts of football beyond this, if you took Hillsborough out of history and looked at Liverpool fans of the 70s and 80s its a known fact that they were some of the nastiest in Europe and as Englands sole representatives in Europe for much of it they spread that "love" around. Now add Hillsborough back into history and those facts don't change, thats not a vendetta against Liverpool because I feel the same way about West Hams ICF. Its just the white elephant in the room when you discuss Liverpool, Liverpool fans and Hillsborough at the same time.

Quite.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if football fans had nothing to do with this why has there never been anything like it at the opera or Waitrose (it gets really busy there on Sunday afternoons)?

 

[Craig_J]

Thats an utterly garbage comment, just because I don't agree with who should shoulder the blame

I have total sympathy towards the families because one fact in all this is people lost their lives and people lost their loved ones. That is not open for dispute.

But I repeat, the statement "did fans contribute to the deaths - no" is crap, I am sorry but that us my view.

What I also have issue with is people totally ignoring the facts of football beyond this, if you took Hillsborough out of history and looked at Liverpool fans of the 70s and 80s its a known fact that they were some of the nastiest in Europe and as Englands sole representatives in Europe for much of it they spread that "love" around. Now add Hillsborough back into history and those facts don't change, thats not a vendetta against Liverpool because I feel the same way about West Hams ICF. Its just the white elephant in the room when you discuss Liverpool, Liverpool fans and Hillsborough at the same time.

Agreed. I'm probably as left wing as they come and would love nothing more than to blame the authorities for every single ounce of what went on.

But the fans did play a part. Sadly, it wouldn't surprise me if the people who died all had genuinely done nothing wrong but were caught up in it all with the (at that time sizeable) minority who were out to cause mischief.

Don't get me wrong, the police still have a hell of a lot to answer for and I do think Thatcher's government were prepared to do anything to stop certain truths about the police getting out in the open at that point in history.

But fan behaviour was disgraceful at that time. So much so that it actually gave us Brits a reputation that we haven't shaked off after decades! We were considered to have such scum amongst the ranks that the rest of Europe decided that they'd feel safer without us in their borders for a kick about.

I have no doubt that certain fans, certain organisers and certain officers were all equally culpable for the events that occurred. Although if I had the chance to prosecute one group it would be the greedy bastards who were prepared to let in an infinite amount of fans to generate an infinite amount of income no matter what.

Aside from causing deaths they've probably stopped anyone from ever being entitled to stand up at top flight football ever again.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Quite.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if football fans had nothing to do with this why has there never been anything like it at the opera or Waitrose (it gets really busy there on Sunday afternoons)?

Didn't a lot of supermarkets cancel "Black Friday" due to bad crowd actions? and can you compare 2000 with an allocated seat of the right sort at ROH with 40,000 rabble at an association football game.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think the general vibe is that Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen, several references to Spurs experience before etc.

There could be a very interesting argument to say football failed the 96, the problem is you can't blame football and get the peace of mind you need, but you could portion blame on alot of factors....

 

[scaramanga]

Didn't a lot of supermarkets cancel "Black Friday" due to bad crowd actions?

Not my local Waitrose.

and can you compare 2000 with an allocated seat of the right sort at ROH with 40,000 rabble at an association football game.

Precisely. It's the rabble that requires a heavy police presence. It's the rabble that needs separating from other fans. It's the rabble that needs to be herded away from anywhere they might do damage.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Not my local Waitrose.


Precisely. It's the rabble that requires a heavy police presence. It's the rabble that needs separating from other fans. It's the rabble that needs to be herded away from anywhere they might do damage.

Who decides who's rabble? You?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Agree but you can't condone the actions of senior police officer to force junior officers to change their notes so that any blame for the handling of the incident does not reflect on their ability to manage the situation. Unfortunately British history is littered with such incidents with "our betters" getting it wrong with massive cost of lives of expendable people and it would all be a lot simpler if we all just believe what were told. These people all love to sit at the top table, meet the great and the good, collect their gold plated pensions and the odd gong thats going but don't want to expect the responsiblity when anything goes wrong. They hold public office and though they chose to ignore it they are responsible to us the people they serve, not government. I always remember senior officer saying the british police carryout their duites with the consent of the british people.

Yep, the idiot son's of the elite, one and all, the same men who led the Charge of the Light phalanx and all the other fiascos of British history... the same people who Scara identifies with... you know 'our betters.'

 

[scaramanga]

Who decides who's rabble? You?

They identify themselves by getting into fights and causing trouble.

 

[Grays_1890]

What I don't get and in no way shape or form is this sarcastic, what I don't get and if someone can shed light on it please do...

If you go to a game without a ticket, break into the ground and as a result cause overcrowding surely by definition, breaking the law...to start the domino effect which resulted in the deaths, you have to be considered part of the blame, surely? If you turn up without a ticket you know its wrong to go into the game, some will say thats a very simple view but is that not correct? 30 year old men who should know better not? Or is it a case of people saying "well that was the done thing, it was the 80's" I mean its equally a cynical view to say "well thats how it was then" because the counter argument would be "well policing was like that back then"

Thats why I believe there is elements of blame on a number of heads....

 

[Libero]

There is a lot of blame to go around. The latest "truth" is that it was all the fault of David Crompton, that doesn't sit right with me.

I'm sure we've all seen pathe reels of WHL in the 50's and 60's identical trench coats and hats on every attendant, the odd clacker or whistle, no fences though, they didn't go up until later, when they were needed.

I was a kid in the 80's, I went to games with my dad, quiet ones, Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, Exeter, always in the seated areas, and we never took the train, despite my dad being a railway man, he knew what happened on the specials, he knew what happened at the big clubs, he wasn't letting me anywhere near that.

Denying the rampant hooliganism of the 80's is no less a lie than the sun's sensationalism. The policing of the time was a product of the society of the time.

David Crompton isn't suspended because of his role within the tragedy, he wasn't a serving officer with South Yorks Police at the time and therefore it is being tagged as his fault. He is being suspended because the PCC has lost confidence in him as a result of local public outcry over emails he sent as recently as 2013 completely at odds with the 'official' acceptance of their performance on the day and the fact officers went to the inquests were being overtly aggressive in their defence of obvious wrongdoing rather than attempting to help the inquests reach their findings. It would appear that the inquests could have taken half as long with a bit more humility from SYP and the evidence they have given. It is just one persons fault, it was a perfect storm of sorts but certainly a select few are culpable in terms of their decision making and an even larger number should be facing prison for misconduct in public office which for me is actually much more of an offence than the failing to act on the day.

I don't understand where you get this idea that people are denying that hooliganism existed throughout the 1980s. No one on this thread has suggested that and quite frankly hooliganism had nothing to do with what occurred on the day. It was responsible for having fences there but does that mean it is responsible for an area being continuously overfilled regardless? I would have thought having a physical barrier at the front would focus one's mind on making sure certain areas didnnt get too full.