James Maddison

[Raziel]

I am constantly arguing this point (in agreement with you 100%). To do what he wants to do there you have to be Modric. He isn't. In fact, it is an eye-opener to see that when Bergvall does that in his youthful exuberance he is far more effective; when Bergy learns the full scope of when to carry and when to release, well, what a player!

Maddison is more Eriksen than Modric (to the point, Bergvall is more Modric, can pass, can recycle or can carry. And no for the inevitable comments, I'm not comparing skill levels)

We play 6,8,10
There is not a chance on earth that he sees Maddison as an 8.. the guy doesn’t run enough
The games when he drops deep are the game when he gets dropped for the next one
I love a player wanting the ball, but it has to be in an area they can have an impact in
He is to a bad player by any means but if he drops to just in front of the CBs to receive a simple pass and then ponders … we lose momentum at the start (he isn’t unique in the team at this)

We play 4-3-3 out of possession, with two wingers and a CF, no 10 in system
We play 2-3-5 in attack, with two of the midfielders pushing into front line, two of FBs into midfield, again no "classic 10"

Understand the profile of the player, but this is chicken and egg stuff

See my point above, think Maddison as an Eriksen type, midfielder high, typically drifting to left side looking to receive ball and make decisive pass. Issue is, if he stays high, you can have him, Son, Udogie/Spence, Tell and Bentancur all with a very congested space, that's on the system

Now either you adjust the system to give him that space, you tell him work without the space (limits effectiveness but look against Ipswich, he does have ability in tight spaces), or you give him freedom to go back to get ball.

And to the last point, two different things there
- Him being an outlet to pass out to is not an issue, especially if opposition is pressing (gives him ability to make decisive pass and break the press, bypass opposition lines)
- Him pondering on it is a problem, but see my previous post, is that him not being aggressive enough or is there not enough movement in front of him? FWIW, think we as a team are guilty of not targeting runs well/often enough (seen Tell make lots of runs to no pass)

 

[Bullet]

Raziel is correct.
We push our fullbacks into midfield and have midfielders pushing forwards into the space a normal #10 would occupy.
Meanwhile our centre forward also gets crowded, and our wide players often refuse to take a man on, leading to 173 players all looking bemused and standing on each others' toes.

We need to give wide players early balls either to (a) run at 1 full back or (b) curl an early cross in for the striker or (c) get to the byline and ping it across. However what we see is often slow balls into marked players, who chicken out and come backwards.

 

[Raziel]

Raziel is correct.
We push our fullbacks into midfield and have midfielders pushing forwards into the space a normal #10 would occupy.
Meanwhile our centre forward also gets crowded, and our wide players often refuse to take a man on, leading to 173 players all looking bemused and standing on each others' toes.

We need to give wide players early balls either to (a) run at 1 full back or (b) curl an early cross in for the striker or (c) get to the byline and ping it across. However what we see is often slow balls into marked players, who chicken out and come backwards.

Yep, core part of Ange's system is if you see space in front of you, you run into it (yes, very simplistic perspective), the problem is when you hit the final third you get exactly what you describe, overcrowded and overcommitted (if we lose the ball those same 173 players are out of the game).

Purely from a profile perspective, I don't think that congested model suits Maddison or Son or Johnson, weirdly they are all still scoring quite a bit.

 

[Muttley]

the guy doesn’t run enough

This

You can't be an effective number 10 unless you're constantly on the move. Prime Eriksen found space everywhere. He didn't need to sprint around the pitch. He was just on his toes and was always showing for the ball. Much easier for Eriksen though as Walker and Rose had up to 4 of the opposition pinned to the wide areas. Spaces appeared. The current setup overloads the off-centre pockets of space where 10's do the damage.

For me, Ange's system worked best when the 8 was focused more on the right and the 10 was advanced on the left. In his early days we had symmetry with Sarr and Madds. We've changed from that over time.

 

[Muttley]

Yep, core part of Ange's system is if you see space in front of you, you run into it (yes, very simplistic perspective), the problem is when you hit the final third you get exactly what you describe, overcrowded and overcommitted (if we lose the ball those same 173 players are out of the game).

Purely from a profile perspective, I don't think that congested model suits Maddison or Son or Johnson, weirdly they are all still scoring quite a bit.

We also spend an incredible amount of time working it from back to front. You see occasional glimpses of what Ange's system could be, but most of it is sideways / backwards. The entire point of the system is to bring them on to us, pass around them and use the space in behind them. Currently we have these amazing moments where it happens. Few and far between though.

 

[Raziel]

This

You can't be an effective number 10 unless you're constantly on the move. Prime Eriksen found space everywhere. He didn't need to sprint around the pitch. He was just on his toes and was always showing for the ball. Much easier for Eriksen though as Walker and Rose had up to 4 of the opposition pinned to the wide areas. Spaces appeared. The current setup overloads the off-centre pockets of space where 10's do the damage.

For me, Ange's system worked best when the 8 was focused more on the right and the 10 was advanced on the left. In his early days we had symmetry with Sarr and Madds. We've changed from that over time.

Prime Eriksen had Son, Kane & Deli running in front of him, plus to your point Walker & Rose, making space. Hence my point, Maddison has to help himself, but system has to help him as well.

Main issue is in your best side, you want Deki in center (one of those 8's, even if his profile is definitely more 10), that's broken the balance and spacing.

 

[thfcsteff]

Maddison is more Eriksen than Modric (to the point, Bergvall is more Modric, can pass, can recycle or can carry. And no for the inevitable comments, I'm not comparing skill levels)

I didn't say he was Modric. I was making no comment on his style of play as a player. I was saying that if he wants to be the sort of player who drops deep to pick up the ball and drive the game/design the tempos/control it, that player is rare i.e. Luka Modric. He is Eriksen at best, but rarely hits any of CE's heights at that same age.
IMO.

 

[Muttley]

Prime Eriksen had Son, Kane & Deli running in front of him, plus to your point Walker & Rose, making space. Hence my point, Maddison has to help himself, but system has to help him as well.

Main issue is in your best side, you want Deki in center (one of those 8's, even if his profile is definitely more 10), that's broken the balance and spacing.

LOL, obviously it would be my best side in Ange's system, not mine.

Poch managed that dilemma though. Eriksen and Dele learnt how to play together with both wanting central positions. They just interchanged in the 4-2-3-1 system. Ange's system doesn't accommodate that so well, as one of them has to be the wide player.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Raziel is correct.
We push our fullbacks into midfield and have midfielders pushing forwards into the space a normal #10 would occupy.
Meanwhile our centre forward also gets crowded, and our wide players often refuse to take a man on, leading to 173 players all looking bemused and standing on each others' toes.

We need to give wide players early balls either to (a) run at 1 full back or (b) curl an early cross in for the striker or (c) get to the byline and ping it across. However what we see is often slow balls into marked players, who chicken out and come backwards.

We rarely south fill backs into midfield
That’s the plan when we’re fit and fresh but we haven’t done that since October
Maybe Maddison is playing like we’re all for and on form but he isn’t really showing it

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Prime Eriksen had Son, Kane & Deli running in front of him, plus to your point Walker & Rose, making space. Hence my point, Maddison has to help himself, but system has to help him as well.

Main issue is in your best side, you want Deki in center (one of those 8's, even if his profile is definitely more 10), that's broken the balance and spacing.

Eriksen also wasn’t picking it up on the edge of his area and regularly ran the most out of the whole team
Maddison right now is more like Fernandes at united and the way we play needs ball carriers too

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yep, core part of Ange's system is if you see space in front of you, you run into it (yes, very simplistic perspective), the problem is when you hit the final third you get exactly what you describe, overcrowded and overcommitted (if we lose the ball those same 173 players are out of the game).

Purely from a profile perspective, I don't think that congested model suits Maddison or Son or Johnson, weirdly they are all still scoring quite a bit.

Fully agree
But to go into that space you when to run
And when that space is other final third and your still running you big arse up the pitch down out defensive third you have an issue

 

[thfcsteff]

Understand the profile of the player, but this is chicken and egg stuff

See my point above, think Maddison as an Eriksen type, midfielder high, typically drifting to left side looking to receive ball and make decisive pass. Issue is, if he stays high, you can have him, Son, Udogie/Spence, Tell and Bentancur all with a very congested space, that's on the system

Now either you adjust the system to give him that space, you tell him work without the space (limits effectiveness but look against Ipswich, he does have ability in tight spaces), or you give him freedom to go back to get ball.

And to the last point, two different things there
- Him being an outlet to pass out to is not an issue, especially if opposition is pressing (gives him ability to make decisive pass and break the press, bypass opposition lines)
- Him pondering on it is a problem, but see my previous post, is that him not being aggressive enough or is there not enough movement in front of him? FWIW, think we as a team are guilty of not targeting runs well/often enough (seen Tell make lots of runs to no pass)

He has the freedom of the pitch to run the game. You mentioned Eriksen. IF that is the comparison (and it's fair) then Eriksen was not afraid to drive forward with the ball in lieu of an optional pass, and draw fouls/players in order to progress play. As for your second question, I often get the impression he bustles back to get 'on the ball' without actually thinking a couple of steps ahead as to what he wants to do in terms of affecting the game once he gets it. Combine that with some of the recent lack of movement uptop versus excellent movement that he doesn't spot in time precisely because he seems to trip himself up mentally/rush in those moments to get on the ball...I think the very best players are so fluid in their anticipation and overall play. He has bursts of brilliance. The lack of consistency is certainly psychological IMO...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He has the freedom of the pitch to run the game. You mentioned Eriksen. IF that is the comparison (and it's fair) then Eriksen was not afraid to drive forward with the ball in lieu of an optional pass, and draw fouls/players in order to progress play. As for your second question, I often get the impression he bustles back to get 'on the ball' without actually thinking a couple of steps ahead as to what he wants to do in terms of affecting the game once he gets it. Combine that with some of the recent lack of movement uptop versus excellent movement that he doesn't spot in time precisely because he seems to trip himself up mentally/rush in those moments to get on the ball...I think the very best players are so fluid in their anticipation and overall play. He has bursts of brilliance. The lack of consistency is certainly psychological IMO...

Eriksen can pass with both feet and use both sides of the pitch
I’ve said it before but look at how awkward Maddison looks when trying to play the ball to the right
And when going left he wraps his foot around the ball to make sure it gets there but it means it’s a heavy pass
He is very good IMO as an impact sub

 

[SteveAWOL]

Eriksen also wasn’t picking it up on the edge of his area and regularly ran the most out of the whole team
Maddison right now is more like Fernandes at united and the way we play needs ball carriers too

Prime Eriksen would’ve been perfect for AngeBall, what with his relentless running and forward passing which kept our attack ticking for years.

The closest in our current team to Eriksen is perhaps Kulusevski imho, with Maddison being more of a moments player like Dele.

 

[Muttley]

Prime Eriksen would’ve been perfect for AngeBall, what with his relentless running and forward passing which kept our attack ticking for years.

The closest in our current team to Eriksen is perhaps Kulusevski imho, with Maddison being more of a moments player like Dele.

Would Van der Vaart been even better though? We were lucky enough to have Modric and VDV working together through central areas, then Dele and Eriksen with Dembele. We really need Deki and Madds to start thinking like some of our old players did and finding a wavelength. Our players in the past seamlessly swapped positions with each other.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Prime Eriksen would’ve been perfect for AngeBall, what with his relentless running and forward passing which kept our attack ticking for years.

The closest in our current team to Eriksen is perhaps Kulusevski imho, with Maddison being more of a moments player like Dele.

If Bergvall can get his passing range he has similar qualities IMO
The nearest we have in the squad though is Donley IMO

 

[SteveAWOL]

Would Van der Vaart been even better though? We were lucky enough to have Modric and VDV working together through central areas, then Dele and Eriksen with Dembele. We really need Deki and Madds to start thinking like some of our old players did and finding a wavelength. Our players in the past seamlessly swapped positions with each other.

Rafa would be a more like for like upgrade on Maddison but given his inability to complete 90 minutes regularly even in Redknapp’s team I’m not sure how long his body would’ve lasted attempting to play AngeBall!

If we could rotate between the pair of them and have prime Eriksen competing with Kulusevski and Bergvall then maybe they could Make Angeball Great Again!

 

[Bishop]

As talented as he is, he is not reliable. He has not completed 90 minutes all season, and I believe he has only completed 90 minutes for us once.

He'd be perfect for United, he's a moments player. The question I guess is can we satisfactory use the moments to our greater good.

 

[Dicko]

Has anyone mentioned his terrible corners the other night? Especially the short one where he played it on the floor out towards the edge of the box straight to the opposition which led to a counter attack lol! I was trying to watch and see if he was chasing hard to get back but it was difficult to see on the tv. I do wish we would take normal corners. Danso looked dangerous whenever we put it in a good area.

 

[thfcsteff]

Prime Eriksen had Son, Kane & Deli running in front of him, plus to your point Walker & Rose, making space. Hence my point, Maddison has to help himself, but system has to help him as well.

Main issue is in your best side, you want Deki in center (one of those 8's, even if his profile is definitely more 10), that's broken the balance and spacing.

Maddison has Johnson wanting passes in behind to run onto, Sonny who does best with passes in behind and not to feet, plus Udogie and Porro constantly looking to overload and provide further options. Different systems obviously, but there are options for him, and when he doesn't have them, I don't think he does enough to invite/create situations either by drawing fouls or taking people on. I think he has been greatly hampered by not having Romero behind him, that's for sure, but Gray is very very good on the ball too. For me, he still ends up getting drawn deep to 'get involved' without knowing what that involvement is for beyond just getting on the ball. If he's dropping, whoi's HIS option?