Jan Vertonghen

[parklane1]

Jan is our best C B ( imo) and still can do it on the pitch, sadly to say that Toby is nowhere near the player he was and Jan is having to cover a lot for him. Because of that he is not playing at his best but i hope he does sign another contract because i believe he still has what it takes.

 

[AdamB]

Jan took a ball in the face today and carried on, then got headbutted in the eye with a huge black eye, and carried on.

He was still sprinting back in injury time, so I do think he put a lot of effort in and wants to keep going.

But these senior players need to be more vocal and organise the team and call out lazy walking/jogging teammates and become part of the solution.

I agree, and he does have leadershpi qualities which is what we need at the moment. I think we should be giving him what he needs, within reason, as we're desperate for some stability. Give him a 2-3 year deal and get him motivated and focussed

Some people saying we should ditch him and TOby now arent being realisitc. They're our best two CBs, Sanchez isnt at their level yet and we also need FOyth at RB

 

[Sandman]

I agree, and he does have leadershpi qualities which is what we need at the moment. I think we should be giving him what he needs, within reason, as we're desperate for some stability. Give him a 2-3 year deal and get him motivated and focussed

Some people saying we should ditch him and TOby now arent being realisitc. They're our best two CBs, Sanchez isnt at their level yet and we also need FOyth at RB

Maybe Sanchez and Foyth are not at their level. But the truth of the matter is, they will be with us next season. And by the looks of it Toby and Jan will not. So they need playing time now.

Jan is the one who I think is still the one to keep. He looks like he wants to stay. Toby just looks like he has lot his game. He does not look the same players anymore. Now maybe we can see what other teams saw when they did not activate his release clause. I just dont think we can play the both of them anymore.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I agree, and he does have leadershpi qualities which is what we need at the moment. I think we should be giving him what he needs, within reason, as we're desperate for some stability. Give him a 2-3 year deal and get him motivated and focussed

Some people saying we should ditch him and TOby now arent being realisitc. They're our best two CBs, Sanchez isnt at their level yet and we also need FOyth at RB

Jan, I agree with you. He is playifn well, Id give him a deal and have him as the senior defender for the next couple of years.

Alderweireld I do not. In both Sanchez and Foyth we already have his succession in place. Alderweireld is not playing well, and we have his replacement ready to go, but inexplicably are not using him. It makes no sense at all.

Even if Sanchez wasnt in form, I would play him. He wont be any worse than Alderweireld, and it sends an important message to the squad.

What message do you think it sends now, a misfiring Alderweireld playing every game while Sanchez doesnt get a look in? (similar story with Eriksen)

 

[AdamB]

What message do you think it sends now, a misfiring Alderweireld playing every game while Sanchez doesnt get a look in? (similar story with Eriksen)

It depends on how many games he gets - no reason why we couldnt phase Sanchez in more gradually over the next year or two. Giving Alderweireld a new deal doesnt mean that he has to play every single game

 

[elltrev]

Jan, I agree with you. He is playifn well, Id give him a deal and have him as the senior defender for the next couple of years.

Alderweireld I do not. In both Sanchez and Foyth we already have his succession in place. Alderweireld is not playing well, and we have his replacement ready to go, but inexplicably are not using him. It makes no sense at all.

Even if Sanchez wasnt in form, I would play him. He wont be any worse than Alderweireld, and it sends an important message to the squad.

What message do you think it sends now, a misfiring Alderweireld playing every game while Sanchez doesnt get a look in? (similar story with Eriksen)

I agree with you re Sanchez, though would point out that IMO he was worse at CB than Alderweireld when he was playing there earlier this season.

 

[P.D.]

Given the money Alderweireld would want, his attitude and mahoosive decline in performance I don't think we should offer him a new deal. I'm sure there's games we'd miss him but either seems to have totally lost his legs or can't be arsed because he's not happy - either way we should get rid in the summer and start giving Sanchez some games (or Foyth).

Jan I'd 100% keep, in fact getting him to sign another contract now would be a massive boost for us and internally within the squad I bet.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Has there been any real explanation for Jan being dropped prior to the Arsenal games (apart from the "Eriksen wife stuff", that is)?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think both would look a lot better with some decent protection in front of them. They're both being asked to do so much more defending than they used to.

Looking ahead though, if i think of the type of footballer Jan is, he's probably more capable of keeping his game level up, moreso than TA. Furthermore the thought of 3 of our defenders departing in the summer is worrying. If we can keep Jan, we should, not only to help that transition but also as an experienced head for the new guys.

Although his forms been poor, Sanchez needs game time and even Foyth needs to rack up some minutes, and if fit, Poch might as well crack on with his plan to play him at RB.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It depends on how many games he gets - no reason why we couldnt phase Sanchez in more gradually over the next year or two. Giving Alderweireld a new deal doesnt mean that he has to play every single game

Im not talking about giving Alderweireld a deal or anything. Very much talking about the here and now.

We have a young player, bought for a huge sum of money, on a long contract.

And we have an older player, playing like brick, actively looking to leave the club.

The continued selection of Alderweireld must, IMO, be sending all the wrong signals to Sanchez directly, and our young players in general.

That would be very damaging, IMO.

Particularly when much of our success is built on attracting young players who know they will get a chance with us.

I agree with you re Sanchez, though would point out that IMO he was worse at CB than Alderweireld when he was playing there earlier this season.

I thought he was hit and miss. And at this point, no worse than Alderweireld who is going backwards rapidly.

Also, a couple of things spring to mind.

How is Sanchez to find form without games? (and, incidentally, I think he pairs well with Vertonghen).

If its a choice between two poor players, it makes sense to show faith with the one who is here for the long haul.

 

[elltrev]

Im not talking about giving Alderweireld a deal or anything. Very much talking about the here and now.

We have a young player, bought for a huge sum of money, on a long contract.

And we have an older player, playing like brick, actively looking to leave the club.

The continued selection of Alderweireld must, IMO, be sending all the wrong signals to Sanchez directly, and our young players in general.

That would be very damaging, IMO.

Particularly when much of our success is built on attracting young players who know they will get a chance with us.




I thought he was hit and miss. And at this point, no worse than Alderweireld who is going backwards rapidly.

Also, a couple of things spring to mind.

How is Sanchez to find form without games? (and, incidentally, I think he pairs well with Vertonghen).

If its a choice between two poor players, it makes sense to show faith with the one who is here for the long haul.

Yeah I agree, I was just splitting hairs really. (Or maybe trying to make the point that playing Sanchez won't immediately improve our fortunes, though I know that's not a point you were making).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Yeah I agree, I was just splitting hairs really. (Or maybe trying to make the point that playing Sanchez won't immediately improve our fortunes, though I know that's not a point you were making).

I actually think it could though, thats the thing.

Proper pace in the back line could be a game changer right now.

Just as, with people continually going on about needing to refresh things and transition etc - what better than promoting the young up and comers?

 

[elltrev]

I actually think it could though, thats the thing.

Proper pace in the back line could be a game changer right now.

Just as, with people continually going on about needing to refresh things and transition etc - what better than promoting the young up and comers?

Okay but then my point is that Sanchez was playing CB at the beginning of the season, but also played brick!

I guess my main point with all of this stuff is that it's easy to suggest alternative formations and personnel and act as if Poch is a fool for not doing that, when it's impossible to disprove that that would make us any better off.

Reminds me of an old saying in American Football: 'There's an old football saying that's been around for a few years. "The backup quarterback is the most popular guy in town." It's never specific to any one player but instead points to the psyche of the modern day average football fan. The perception of the unknown. It's easy as a fan to always want the back up, he surely can't be worse than the guy who's in there right now, right?'

(Edit: I'm not suggesting that you're the most guilty poster of constantly doing this - I think you've made lots of fair points, even if we don't agree on everything.)

And the reason I'm banging that drum is because I think the root of our issues is mental instead, as discussed elsewhere.

But we're all just endlessly going round in circles on this stuff, so I'm going to try and drag myself away from the forum and go back to work again

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Okay but then my point is that Sanchez was playing CB at the beginning of the season, but also played brick!

I guess my main point with all of this stuff is that it's easy to suggest alternative formations and personnel and act as if Poch is a fool for not doing that, when it's impossible to disprove that that would make us any better off.

Reminds me of an old saying in American Football: 'There's an old football saying that's been around for a few years. "The backup quarterback is the most popular guy in town." It's never specific to any one player but instead points to the psyche of the modern day average football fan. The perception of the unknown. It's easy as a fan to always want the back up, he surely can't be worse than the guy who's in there right now, right?'

(Edit: I'm not suggesting that you're the most guilty poster of constantly doing this - I think you've made lots of fair points, even if we don't agree on everything.)

And the reason I'm banging that drum is because I think the root of our issues is mental instead, as discussed elsewhere.

But we're all just endlessly going round in circles on this stuff, so I'm going to try and drag myself away from the forum and go back to work again

People suggest alternative formations and players to resolve the issues (sometimes blindingly obvious) they see on the field.

Its literally our only true window into the state of the club/team.

I dont think its the case that we all think we know best, and I dont think its the case of the back up being seen as better than they are most of the time.

Put it this way - you can spot a knee jerk a mile away on boards like this. For the most part I see people having reasoning behind their posts, whether or not I agree with them.

What I do think though is we need to remember we do have a very limited insight, considering matchday is 95% of what we know.

You think our issues are mental, and to a point I agree - I suspect where we might differ is in where those issues come from/who or what is responsible for them (in both cause and resolution).

I think our issues are multiple, but nearly all go back to Poch as either cause or responsible to resolve. And I think he could be doing a lot better (and should have been).

 

[Modric THFC]

Has there been any real explanation for Jan being dropped prior to the Arsenal games (apart from the "Eriksen wife stuff", that is)?

Poch give no explanation for dropping him to anyone. He never does thats part of the problem.

The players are left guessing.


https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...window-eriksen-vs-arsenal-derby-a9082976.html

"Although the natural presumption would be that there’s some big story behind Mauricio Pochettino dropping Jan Vertonghen, it certainly doesn’t seem that way.

There’s been no big blow-up. There’s certainly been no punch-up. There’s just been the same refrain from many close to the squad. “It’s just typical Pochettino,” they say.

It’s a decision taken without any apparent explanation, one that the manager will stubbornly persist with until the moment he doesn’t – as has been precisely the case for five years."

"One theory among the players about Vertonghen is that, coming from the more outspoken Ajax school, he has inadvertently made comments that Pochettino hasn’t liked. So he’s been left out, leaving Spurs short of their best team."

 

[glorygloryeze]

Poch give no explanation for dropping him to anyone. He never does thats part of the problem.

The players are left guessing.


https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...window-eriksen-vs-arsenal-derby-a9082976.html

"Although the natural presumption would be that there’s some big story behind Mauricio Pochettino dropping Jan Vertonghen, it certainly doesn’t seem that way.

There’s been no big blow-up. There’s certainly been no punch-up. There’s just been the same refrain from many close to the squad. “It’s just typical Pochettino,” they say.

It’s a decision taken without any apparent explanation, one that the manager will stubbornly persist with until the moment he doesn’t – as has been precisely the case for five years."

"One theory among the players about Vertonghen is that, coming from the more outspoken Ajax school, he has inadvertently made comments that Pochettino hasn’t liked. So he’s been left out, leaving Spurs short of their best team."

"...No punch-up"....
..that makes it seem the article is not well-informed, given the black eye he had back then...

 

[parklane1]

Given the money Alderweireld would want, his attitude and mahoosive decline in performance I don't think we should offer him a new deal. I'm sure there's games we'd miss him but either seems to have totally lost his legs or can't be arsed because he's not happy - either way we should get rid in the summer and start giving Sanchez some games (or Foyth).

Jan I'd 400% keep, in fact getting him to sign another contract now would be a massive boost for us and internally within the squad I bet.

My thoughts as well, Toby was great a season or two back but now he is a shadow of his old self. I have watched carefully this season and he has shown a rapid decline, he goes walk about and for whatever reason fails to get back in position like he used to.

Maybe like you say his legs are gone but he seems not to bust a gut to get back anymore. As others have said i would play Sanchez or Foyth in is place going forward.

 

[Bullet]

Poch give no explanation.

"One theory among the players about Vertonghen is that, coming from the more outspoken Ajax school, he has inadvertently made comments that Pochettino hasn’t liked. So he’s been left out, leaving Spurs short of their best team."

I assume this is about auras. Poch sees the guys training, chatting, walking about and susses out their life force and auras. Genuinely. Woo.

 

[elltrev]

People suggest alternative formations and players to resolve the issues (sometimes blindingly obvious) they see on the field.

Its literally our only true window into the state of the club/team.

I dont think its the case that we all think we know best, and I dont think its the case of the back up being seen as better than they are most of the time.

Put it this way - you can spot a knee jerk a mile away on boards like this. For the most part I see people having reasoning behind their posts, whether or not I agree with them.

What I do think though is we need to remember we do have a very limited insight, considering matchday is 95% of what we know.

You think our issues are mental, and to a point I agree - I suspect where we might differ is in where those issues come from/who or what is responsible for them (in both cause and resolution).

I think our issues are multiple, but nearly all go back to Poch as either cause or responsible to resolve. And I think he could be doing a lot better (and should have been).

Yeah we're actually probably not too far apart in our thinking. I think the way I see it is that there are a number of factors that might have contributed to our poor performances / results this season:

1) A number of first team players having wanted to leave the club, but being stuck here (leading to worse performances from them, and a negative effect on the overall squad dynamic / state of mind)
2) Pochettino getting frustrated by players' lack of commitment and letting it show, in his mood around the players and/or his comments in the media (thus worsening the dynamic / state of mind)
3) Broader staleness and lack of belief as a whole - a squad and manager that's been together for an abnormally long time (not helped by injuries to our new players), without winning a trophy, and with two seasons of backward momentum
4) Poch persisting with a different appproach to freshen up the staleness (e.g. diamond formation, focused on possession more than pressing)
5) Individual bits of bad luck / individual mistakes, whose impact has been magnified and started to snowball due to broader negative context (incl. timing of goals against Arsenal and Olympiakos, VAR decision against Leicester, Aurier and Lloris mistakes against Southampton, difference in finishing against Bayern (and Aurier being a trainwreck), Lloris mistake and injury against Brighton)
6) The squad being irritated or losing faith in Poch (due to his mood, comments in the media, and/or attempts at freshening the team's approach)

Personally I think the biggest issues are 1, 2, 3 and 5. I don't really believe that 6 has much truth to it at all, and I think many others are significantly overestimating the negative impact of 4.

Furthermore I don't think 1, 3 and 5 are his fault, and I don't think your suggested solution to 1 is as straightforward or as likely to have a positive impact as you've suggested. I can also understand and forgive him for 2, especially now that he has changed his tone publicly, to seem 100% committed to the club and to turning things around. And ultimately I think he's particularly deserving of the chance to turn things around, given what he's achieved for the club to date.

Would be interested to hear from you how far apart our thinking is.

Either way, as you said in another post the next three weeks are key - couldn't ask for a better way of bouncing back than an international break followed by home matches against Watford and Red Star in the CL!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

1) A number of first team players having wanted to leave the club, but being stuck here (leading to worse performances from them, and a negative effect on the overall squad dynamic / state of mind)

Who picks them? I do not buy into the idea that Pochettino has to use these players, at all. Nor the idea that because they want out, they are automatically the problem.

Eriksen is clearly underperforming. Vertonghen, I think, is doing a decent job.

Pochettino is under no obligation to play Eriksen, that he is is a problem of his own making.

Less than ideal Eriksen is here - but IMO for the manager to deal with.

2) Pochettino getting frustrated by players' lack of commitment and letting it show, in his mood around the players and/or his comments in the media (thus worsening the dynamic / state of mind)

I agree. I think Poch has been sour for a while and I think its having an impact. It really is on him to behave and perform though, isnt it? This is another of those things where its within his power to fix.

3) Broader staleness and lack of belief as a whole - a squad and manager that's been together for an abnormally long time (not helped by injuries to our new players), without winning a trophy, and with two seasons of backward momentum

Honestly find this line, which seems to be taking hold, to be nonsense. I cant justify a collective drop in form simply "because theyve played together a while". I can understand a boredom/complacency creeping in, if the messages and methods are the same as they have always been.

I dont know if there is any truth to that applying to us, but if there is - who do you suppose it is down to to reinvigorate the methods/messages etc?

Id say Poch...

4) Poch persisting with a different appproach to freshen up the staleness (e.g. diamond formation, focused on possession more than pressing)

Pochs persisting with the diamond IS an issue, IMO. Though it comes to mind in two ways
1) If he really really thinks the diamond is the best thing, then we should be showing signs of training ground work in adapting to it. Im not seeing any progression though, which is worrying.

2) He does keep persisting with it despite it clearly not working, and us clearly not progressing, which is worrying.

5) Individual bits of bad luck / individual mistakes, whose impact has been magnified and started to snowball due to broader negative context (incl. timing of goals against Arsenal and Olympiakos, VAR decision against Leicester, Aurier and Lloris mistakes against Southampton, difference in finishing against Bayern (and Aurier being a trainwreck), Lloris mistake and injury against Brighton)

Broadly agree. One of those, when things are bad this sort of stuff happens and really brings home the situation.

Question becomes, would these errors (some/all) have happened anyway, even if we were in form? Or are they indicative of how bad things are with the players right now?

6) The squad being irritated or losing faith in Poch (due to his mood, comments in the media, and/or attempts at freshening the team's approach)

I can believe it. Though it basically ties into the ideas of Poch having a mood and it effecting the squad. Or the squad needing more/different stimulus.



I completely understand and accept some of the frustrations attributed to Poch. And I can well see some of them are down to the board or circumstances beyond his control. However, regardless of that, I also think its his job to manage these situations - and that he could have done a better job so far than he has.

Further to your points - I get the impression he just isnt the same Poch. If I had to pin my colours to the mast, Id say he is burnt out, frustrated, and simply not at the races. He isnt displaying the level of passion, control, understanding etc that he used to. He looks like a man who needs a rest to me.

If thats in any way true, I question what chance he has of turning things around. Where might he find inspiration and enthusiasm?


Second to that, I do wonder if he has lost the players. Their heads dropped against Bayern, and they didnt pick up at all against Brighton - it was a very worrying performance on that front. Again, if thats in any way true, what chance does he have of turning it around?