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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Raziel said:
There are some similarities, (albeit at different points in their career), both probably overachieved vs. expectation, both had the best of the career at Spurs, both had suitors, both didn't do enough to shut down the rumors (if not actively encourage), both seemed to have got distracted at the end ..

Honestly I would take an interim manager over Poch right now, people keep arguing that it's this season, or since January, it's actually been downhill for what is now the third season (every stat backs that up, GA, GF, average GP game, league position, etc.), and there is nothing to suggest it will change. We can still save this season, by January, not soo much. But the obvious are there, Jose and Allegri, we would be nuts not to look at both of them.

Insert the usual "Jose is a chequebook manager", yes I heard that about Harry, and it's that what most people are proposing we do with Poch? only difference is you know if you give Jose money he will win something. +money will come, Levy didn't spend a billion dollars to have Spurs compete in the same space, it's to fund a future where we compete financially.
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Thanks for the great response. I've got to go work, but will return later.

I totally rate people who want to go for an interim manager and accept that there will be another manager who follows after - ala Chelsea, Real, Barca, etc. I don't like that plan and would prefer to wait and build.

Other people will pick the holes in an Allegri or Jose (and this one definitely will have some drawbacks) appointment - and that's cool too. I'm totally open to swapping manager - I love Poch, but I'm loyal to Spurs, and that means seeing as many perspectives as you can and weighing them all up. Without forensic analysis - do we think that 5 to 10 years on from now, interim manager + what happens next gets us further than sticking with Poch (assuming he would stay?)? I think it's probably close, but I think there's a lower risk that things go wrong with Pochettino and a higher chance of something really special (League, CL win) with him.

It's important to note that if you argue the manager isn't that important in the working of a club and how that translates to results, it's illogical to become really upset should the manager change when you thought it wasn't quite the right time, because he never mattered that much in the first instance. That last sentence has a lot of contradictions inside it, but it's that dialectic which is causing us all such difficulty at the moment.
 
scaramanga said:
Are you trying to tell me that Poch is unable to know what potential purchases might want as a salary?

Or that he's incapable of identifying targets that are within our salary bracket?
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I am telling you the players he wanted that would’ve come to us but wanted a bigger wage than our structure allowed. Two of those players are vital members of the Liverpool side. Are you trying to tell me he should carry on doing what he has largely done over the years and shop “within a very tight budget”? That phrase “damned if you do damned if you don’t” springs to mind...
 
We've got to replace more than a quarter of the squad in the coming windows and nearly half of last years first team - like it or not Levy isn't going to hand that kind of transition over to a manger that comes in for half a season and even if he did what's the chances of him settling and being the right man for the job? Going by recent top 6 managerial appointments it's less than 50/50 surely? so the new guy will need to prove himself first delaying the whole process even further. Poch will see us this through to next season at the very least i pretty much have zero doubt at this stage.
 
thfcsteff said:
I am telling you the players he wanted that would’ve come to us but wanted a bigger wage than our structure allowed. Two of those players are vital members of the Liverpool side. Are you trying to tell me he should carry on doing what he has largely done over the years and shop “within a very tight budget”? That phrase “damned if you do damned if you don’t” springs to mind...
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He's done it before - that's now the minimum we should expect. That's what being at the sharp end of performance management is.
 
Raziel said:
There are some similarities, (albeit at different points in their career), both probably overachieved vs. expectation, both had the best of the career at Spurs, both had suitors, both didn't do enough to shut down the rumors (if not actively encourage), both seemed to have got distracted at the end ..

Honestly I would take an interim manager over Poch right now, people keep arguing that it's this season, or since January, it's actually been downhill for what is now the third season (every stat backs that up, GA, GF, average GP game, league position, etc.), and there is nothing to suggest it will change. We can still save this season, by January, not soo much. But the obvious are there, Jose and Allegri, we would be nuts not to look at both of them.

Insert the usual "Jose is a chequebook manager", yes I heard that about Harry, and it's that what most people are proposing we do with Poch? only difference is you know if you give Jose money he will win something. +money will come, Levy didn't spend a billion dollars to have Spurs compete in the same space, it's to fund a future where we compete financially.
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Let's face it - we can employ a significantly worse manager than peak Poch and still improve on our form for the last year.
 
scaramanga said:
Let's face it - we can employ a significantly worse manager than peak Poch and still improve on our form for the last year.
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That was my point, really hard to have conversations sometimes on this board

- I'm not advocating for an interim manager, but I genuinely believe they will provide even a short term boost
- I'd prefer we go all out for a proven manager now and get both the bump as well as the option to give them the money in Janaury

Spurs is changing, football is changing. For the last 10 years when the financial gap, the facilities being built, the level of squad were all badly stacked against us, continuity was most important, the project.

- Within the next year or two (stadium revenue kicking in, naming rights, additional NFL deals, additional non football events) the gap will be much smaller and I could see us switching to the most common model of managers which is cycle through them every 2-4 years, with a DoF (Levy?) playing the continuity role.
 
scaramanga said:
I don't buy that for a second.

A squad that hasn't been "refreshed" may stop improving, but if our players are playing at less than the sum of their parts, it's on the manager. Just as he gets the credit for getting us to where we were, he gets the blame for dropping us to where we are.


He's part of the transfer committee - he has a say.

I don't think we need to be finding the very rare players that are better than our first team, we just need to find a few that are better/fitter than our squad players who never get a game.

If players we wanted to leave haven't, then they were treated too gently. No professional footballer would want to have no game time at all for the rest of their contract, risking being unable to get match for for a new club. Sissoko aside (who it seems would have gone but there were no takers) the rest should be banned from matches, the training ground, etc. Leave their images out of anything that would earn them image rights, make them do all the bricky hospitals for sick kids events and fine them if they don't do them.
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Ok, if you don’t buy it for a second then fine. This is what some people are saying about the quality of debate on here. Someone can cite multiple top tier managers who say a thing, that may relate to our current predicament, and the response is ‘I don’t buy that for a second’. What is the point?
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Ok, if you don’t buy it for a second then fine. This is what some people are saying about the quality of debate on here. Someone can cite multiple top tier managers who say a thing, that may relate to our current predicament, and the response is ‘I don’t buy that for a second’. What is the point?
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I've yet to see a person of any value or significance claim that a top 2 team can become a bottom 5 team by not "refreshing" for a season.

Anyone you've referenced has been talking about working at the very sharp end of football from what I can see. We didn't make it there, let alone need to hold there.
 
scaramanga said:
I've yet to see a person of any value or significance claim that a top 2 team can become a bottom 5 team by not "refreshing" for a season.

Anyone you've referenced has been talking about working at the very sharp end of football from what I can see. We didn't make it there, let alone need to hold there.
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.....What?

first of all, the season is just over a quarter of the way through. Secondly, it is all relative. Maybe going stale at United under Fergie meant they had a season finishing 3rd. Maybe for us it means finishing 6th. Maybe for Dortmund it meant finishing 7th in Germany.

this straw man of top 2 to bottom 5 is not something I’m trying to knock down.

interesting quotes here from the Dortmund higher ups too...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mi...gen-klopp-open-borussia-dortmund-20550840.amp


And Watzke, admits that he should have perhaps attempted to change the mind of Klopp, when he elected to depart in 2015.

“We did not try to change his mind anymore. But that was maybe a mistake. Perhaps it would have been better if we had exchanged the entire team – not the coach.

“Because I knew that, we would never get back such a coach. When I said goodbye, real tears came.

—————

we don’t need to change the entire team, but there is some logic in keeping a special manager.
 
scaramanga said:
More wrong than relegation form?

It's possible, as is everything but you're stretching the realms of probable.
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We are mid table, 5 points from 5 and points from 18th.
Im not a betting man but I'll take a charity £20 bet with you we finish closer to 5th than 18th.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
.....What?

first of all, the season is just over a quarter of the way through. Secondly, it is all relative. Maybe going stale at United under Fergie meant they had a season finishing 3rd. Maybe for us it means finishing 6th. Maybe for Dortmund it meant finishing 7th in Germany.

this straw man of top 2 to bottom 5 is not something I’m trying to knock down.

interesting quotes here from the Dortmund higher ups too...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mi...gen-klopp-open-borussia-dortmund-20550840.amp


And Watzke, admits that he should have perhaps attempted to change the mind of Klopp, when he elected to depart in 2015.

“We did not try to change his mind anymore. But that was maybe a mistake. Perhaps it would have been better if we had exchanged the entire team – not the coach.

“Because I knew that, we would never get back such a coach. When I said goodbye, real tears came.

—————

we don’t need to change the entire team, but there is some logic in keeping a special manager.
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Klopp wasn't a special manager though, he struggled for a year so was clearly a fruad.
 
Raziel said:
There are some similarities, (albeit at different points in their career), both probably overachieved vs. expectation, both had the best of the career at Spurs, both had suitors, both didn't do enough to shut down the rumors (if not actively encourage), both seemed to have got distracted at the end ..

Honestly I would take an interim manager over Poch right now, people keep arguing that it's this season, or since January, it's actually been downhill for what is now the third season (every stat backs that up, GA, GF, average GP game, league position, etc.), and there is nothing to suggest it will change. We can still save this season, by January, not soo much. But the obvious are there, Jose and Allegri, we would be nuts not to look at both of them.

Insert the usual "Jose is a chequebook manager", yes I heard that about Harry, and it's that what most people are proposing we do with Poch? only difference is you know if you give Jose money he will win something. +money will come, Levy didn't spend a billion dollars to have Spurs compete in the same space, it's to fund a future where we compete financially.
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Any advance on the third season?
 
glasgowspur said:
We are mid table, 5 points from 5 and points from 18th.
Im not a betting man but I'll take a charity £20 bet with you we finish closer to 5th than 18th.
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The bet would have to come with caveats, right now our points total at end of season based on last 20 games (or 45) is on target for around 40-42 points (that will be closer to 18th, than 5th)

IF we change the manager, I'd take your bet, if Poch stays till end of season, the second option is probably more likely.
 
scaramanga said:
Yet all the current (over 1 year) of evidence shows that Poch is not fixing the problem.
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Can we just settle on the Burnley away game as when it really started to go downhill.

Up to that point we were in a title race apparently, so even if things weren't all ok, somehow (probably due to our results) we were in a title race. I'm ok with being not perfect but in a title race.

From Burnley things haven't looked good, albeit a LC semi-final and CL final, not forgetting the terrible 3 months where we didn't even play a game. We all hoped a fresh start this season would be exactly that...but a hangover continues and Poch is struggling with a way forward.

He's here all season though so let's just get used to it.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
He's here all season though so let's just get used to it.
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Says who?

I think if form (in performance and results) continues like it is, it is inevitable he goes.

If the crowd turns, I think its inevitable he goes. And if performances continue like this - what chance the crowd still back him come May? (If we have a bad one tomorrow, and lose to Sheffield Utd at home - how will the crowd be at the weekend?!)

I think for Poch to survive this spell we need to be seeing rather immediate changes in the team, and his management of it - issues need to be clearly addressed - else it only ends one way (IMO).
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Why didnt you say so!? I now have faith Poch will be here all season.
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hahaha .. guess we got to take a laugh where we can get it.

Poch will not survive another month of bad results, the cynic in me says Levy put a performance clause in the contract (if the team is in bottom 6 or something like that) and he's waiting on it to pull the trigger.
 
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