Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[BrainOfLevy]

Mentioned it other answer, our run is in the range of 45-46 games of miserable form (and while the start last season was good, over 3 seasons almost every stat has declined).

I don't put much faith in Tripps comments, he's being led by questions, he obviously has his own agenda. I don't claim to know "why" things have gone to brick and no intention of trying to prove that point. My only point is "things have gone to brick, and the data agrees", find me a single data point in last 12 months that says anything but the house is on fire.

Where I seem to disagree is Poch, my priority is not, nor will ever be Poch, my priority is Spurs. Once you take out the emotion and concentrate on the data, as well as the result that changing a manger more often than not brings, there is only one sensible answer. You and others disagree and that's fine but the pretending things are ok and it's normal to write off a season in November is a reach.

not one part of anything I’ve said is pretending things are fine. I’m well aware the performances are terrible and something is clearly wrong. I understand the data.

but my opinion is, something clearly fractured the club. I don’t know exactly what it is, but it is crucial context. You don’t go from transformational manager providing us experiences we never thought we’d see, certainly not this soon and on that budget, to being terrible. It also doesn’t look like Poch has lost the core. What it does look like is that the squad has divided in some way. The data may say we suck, and the usual course of action may be to sack the manager, but I don’t think there is anything usual about what we have done and achieved over the last 2 years, and so the solution may not be usual either.

 

[Raziel]

Liverpool posted record numbers last year and didn't win the league, are saying if they top the league this season but don't beat those numbers they have went back the way and klopp should be sacked?

So explain how staying top of league with less points is the same as the below comparison


- 2016/17 Spurs, 19th November, 6 wins, 6 draws, 0 losses, GD +10, 24 points, league position 5th

with

- 2019/20 Spurs, 13th November, 3 wins, 5 draws, 4 losses, GD +1, 14 points, league position 14th


Mate, lets be clear you can dig up statistics/data all day that show exactly the same thing, we have gotten progressively worse since the 2016/17 season and everyone (including me) kept denying it, now it's so glaring that any reasonable look at league position, results and performance on the field will show it.

And again, I'm not taking about we keep the same position with a few less goals or points, I'm talking about being in top 6 or just above bottom 6.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

For instance, if it’s something like, a group of players got older, got tired of running as hard, got tired of running harder for less money than their peers in other clubs, and realised we were bringing in players on more, maybe that caused a fracture. Maybe it’s a consequence of us moving up a level as a club, and we effectively have a group of haves and have nots until we can move the have nots out.

again, I’m not denying League form has been bad for a good while now. But all of these things alluding to something bad happening around the club last year...I think there is something we are all missing. And clearly the thing that made us hard to beat, the thing that made us overachieve, and the thing that Poch prioritised over anything, was tight knit unity. It has been lost. We have

 

[Baleforce]

not one part of anything I’ve said is pretending things are fine. I’m well aware the performances are terrible and something is clearly wrong. I understand the data.

but my opinion is, something clearly fractured the club. I don’t know exactly what it is, but it is crucial context. You don’t go from transformational manager providing us experiences we never thought we’d see, certainly not this soon and on that budget, to being terrible. It also doesn’t look like Poch has lost the core. What it does look like is that the squad has divided in some way. The data may say we suck, and the usual course of action may be to sack the manager, but I don’t think there is anything usual about what we have done and achieved over the last 2 years, and so the solution may not be usual either.

fair enough, who do you consider core though?

hugo, never a consistent presence
Toby, either physically broken or downed tools
Verts, doesn’t have the excuse of age or miles
Wanyama, see toby
Eriksen, lol
Kane, see verts

 

[Raziel]

not one part of anything I’ve said is pretending things are fine. I’m well aware the performances are terrible and something is clearly wrong. I understand the data.

but my opinion is, something clearly fractured the club. I don’t know exactly what it is, but it is crucial context. You don’t go from transformational manager providing us experiences we never thought we’d see, certainly not this soon and on that budget, to being terrible. It also doesn’t look like Poch has lost the core. What it does look like is that the squad has divided in some way. The data may say we suck, and the usual course of action may be to sack the manager, but I don’t think there is anything usual about what we have done and achieved over the last 2 years, and so the solution may not be usual either.

Actually you do, football history is littered with managers who "suddenly" lost it, finished a season great, seemed clueless 2 months later. I could list half of Chelsea's recent managers, Ranieri at Liecester, half the promoted clubs that have that great first season, on and on ..

And see my post above, this isn't overnight and Poch's peak was in 2016/17, so the last 2 years has been us fading, not overachieving.

 

[Baleforce]

For instance, if it’s something like, a group of players got older, got tired of running as hard, got tired of running harder for less money than their peers in other clubs, and realised we were bringing in players on more, maybe that caused a fracture. Maybe it’s a consequence of us moving up a level as a club, and we effectively have a group of haves and have nots until we can move the have nots out.

again, I’m not denying League form has been bad for a good while now. But all of these things alluding to something bad happening around the club last year...I think there is something we are all missing. And clearly the thing that made us hard to beat, the thing that made us overachieve, and the thing that Poch prioritised over anything, was tight knit unity. It has been lost. We have

Toby is getting on, granted, Wanyama may be broken, the rest of them should be in the physical condition of their lives.

Getting tired of working? That’s just unprofessional.

They don’t have peers in other clubs, nobody has done what that they have, and the best way to make the money is to underline that by wining a major trophy.

 

[Modric THFC]

not one part of anything I’ve said is pretending things are fine. I’m well aware the performances are terrible and something is clearly wrong. I understand the data.

but my opinion is, something clearly fractured the club. I don’t know exactly what it is, but it is crucial context. You don’t go from transformational manager providing us experiences we never thought we’d see, certainly not this soon and on that budget, to being terrible. It also doesn’t look like Poch has lost the core. What it does look like is that the squad has divided in some way. The data may say we suck, and the usual course of action may be to sack the manager, but I don’t think there is anything usual about what we have done and achieved over the last 2 years, and so the solution may not be usual either.

Isn't it obvious now from reading the stuff coming out from players to journos, from watching the team on the pitch and looking at our pressing stats etc that the players are just knackered after 5 years of double sessions and no days off.

I don't think there's any dressing room disharmony. Poch would fully drop players for good if there was.

The players are just done with working so hard all for ultimately nothing in the end.

I don''t buy into the narrative Poch created around the players winding down their contracts affecting everything and eveyone. It was just something Poch said before the window closed. Telling everyone that everything will be okay once he has his team for the season confirmed. Eriksen for instance played better when the window was still open.

 

[Raziel]

For instance, if it’s something like, a group of players got older, got tired of running as hard, got tired of running harder for less money than their peers in other clubs, and realised we were bringing in players on more, maybe that caused a fracture. Maybe it’s a consequence of us moving up a level as a club, and we effectively have a group of haves and have nots until we can move the have nots out.

again, I’m not denying League form has been bad for a good while now. But all of these things alluding to something bad happening around the club last year...I think there is something we are all missing. And clearly the thing that made us hard to beat, the thing that made us overachieve, and the thing that Poch prioritised over anything, was tight knit unity. It has been lost. We have

So trying to have a realistic conversation ,Ok, I accept everything you just said, to me

- It means Poch's main skill is motivating people to push beyond their normal level of effort (could mean we have just seen a return to mean on most players as the motivation has slipped, Rose/Trippier examples could fit)

But that brings a host of concerns

- If that is what he requires to beat even teams below us on a skill level, it indicates a ceiling where once we can't depend on just outrunning the opponent (even when we have skill advantage), will he ever be able to win trophy matches where we will likely be playing against "better" squads, well prepared tactically?
- How would he get back the team spirit? 5 players? 10? how would we know if there is a tipping point? or are we just gambling that after x amount of players it magically returns?
- Are we never going to be able to leverage senior players who have been at the club for more than 3 or 4 years?

Unlike you, the cause doesn't interest me as much, the solution is more important

- How do you see this season going, and what is Poch going to do to get that unity back? (is it like most others, fudge it, abandon the season and hope the next two windows fix it?)

 

[Baleforce]

Isn't it obvious now from reading the stuff coming out from players to journos, from watching the team on the pitch and looking at our pressing stats etc that the players are just knackered after 5 years of double sessions and no days off.

I don't think there's any dressing room disharmony. Poch would fully drop players for good if there was.

The players are just done with working so hard all for ultimately nothing in the end.

I don''t buy into the narrative Poch created around the players winding down their contracts affecting everything and eveyone. It was just something Poch said before the window closed. Telling everyone that everything will be okay once he has his team for the season confirmed. Eriksen for instance played better when the window was still open.

good point on Eriksen, unquestionably true

 

[BrainOfLevy]

fair enough, who do you consider core though?

hugo, never a consistent presence
Toby, either physically broken or downed tools
Verts, doesn’t have the excuse of age or miles
Wanyama, see toby
Eriksen, lol
Kane, see verts

core to me is Lloris, Kane, probably actually Dele given his value and potential, and I’d probably include Davies and Son. Loyal players that want to be here long term. Winks maybe if he gets himself into a truly influential position. Probably still includes Dier despite illnesses.

you could include the argies but I’m not going to as they are probably loyal for reasons beyond sporting confidence...but I’d say if he lost the core, he’d be gone.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

So trying to have a realistic conversation ,Ok, I accept everything you just said, to me

- It means Poch's main skill is motivating people to push beyond their normal level of effort (could mean we have just seen a return to mean on most players as the motivation has slipped, Rose/Trippier examples could fit)

But that brings a host of concerns

- If that is what he requires to beat even teams below us on a skill level, it indicates a ceiling where once we can't depend on just outrunning the opponent (even when we have skill advantage), will he ever be able to win trophy matches where we will likely be playing against "better" squads, well prepared tactically?
- How would he get back the team spirit? 5 players? 10? how would we know if there is a tipping point? or are we just gambling that after x amount of players it magically returns?
- Are we never going to be able to leverage senior players who have been at the club for more than 3 or 4 years?

Unlike you, the cause doesn't interest me as much, the solution is more important

- How do you see this season going, and what is Poch going to do to get that unity back? (is it like most others, fudge it, abandon the season and hope the next two windows fix it?)

I honestly don’t think Poch is only able to motivate younger players or make them run harder or whatever, I think he’s tactically capable and adaptable at dealing with different player types, but what he struggles with is a lack of commitment to the cause. You can be more experienced and still committed to something bigger than yourself, like Atletico’s players, but somewhere our players just lost it.

I don’t know exactly what happened, but we’ve been fractured somehow. The contrast between his second season and now is night and day. It’s so sad to see. Do I think he wants this? No. Do I think there is something broader at play? Yes - and I think it is linked to contracts not signed, stadium moves, wages, I think there is a whole roostertail of something that built up that I can’t quite put my finger on. But the Rose / Sun interview is lingering, because we heard that if he didn’t do that, another player might have done and a lot of them agreed. So maybe these issues were building up for a long time. Again, not specifically on Poch and understandable as to why he needs a clear out.

It also may be for example, having just read the piece on the athletic about Saudi Sportswashing Machine, that we’re finding it harder to transition to a game that isn’t about pressing. Bruce wanted to get them playing more front foot, but saw the squad still had the habits and comfort from Benitez’s system, so has kept them in that and got better results. Maybe it is more crucial for us to go through the pain of adapting, and so we have to wear it.

I really don’t know. I’m interested in piecing it all together. I think something broader has gone on. But I understand the data. We have been rubbish for a while - agreed. Where we will continue to disagree is that the rot is Poch’s doing, and I suspect if he does go, in ten years time whenever the stories get revealed, we are going to end up feeling quite sorry for the man.

 

[thfcsteff]

So trying to have a realistic conversation ,Ok, I accept everything you just said, to me

- It means Poch's main skill is motivating people to push beyond their normal level of effort (could mean we have just seen a return to mean on most players as the motivation has slipped, Rose/Trippier examples could fit)

But that brings a host of concerns

- If that is what he requires to beat even teams below us on a skill level, it indicates a ceiling where once we can't depend on just outrunning the opponent (even when we have skill advantage), will he ever be able to win trophy matches where we will likely be playing against "better" squads, well prepared tactically?
- How would he get back the team spirit? 5 players? 10? how would we know if there is a tipping point? or are we just gambling that after x amount of players it magically returns?
- Are we never going to be able to leverage senior players who have been at the club for more than 3 or 4 years?

Unlike you, the cause doesn't interest me as much, the solution is more important

- How do you see this season going, and what is Poch going to do to get that unity back? (is it like most others, fudge it, abandon the season and hope the next two windows fix it?)

You're seeing a small group of players who have played an abnormal amount of football over the past four seasons, two of which were without a home-base, two of which have not seen the incomings the manager wanted versus the outgoings. I know, old circles but ones which cannot be ignored IMO.

I think you're ignoring the whole concept of Poch's front four, how they worked with great full-backs. That front four were always designed to rotate, shift and drop at will, supplemented by the buccaneering FBs and the solid deep CM platform. Dier has been injured beyond reason, Wanyama did his knee and that was the end of him, Moussa was always needing careful management and in the end knackered out for this league. I think to write off what Pochettino built as simply about "outrunning opponents" is really disrespectful IMO. He did what Liverpool are doing now. Where he ran out of luck is he was simply not supported, due to a variety of reasons not the least of which was the stadium.

The team spirit returns when you turf out those who don't want to be here. Simple.

I think your line "the cause doesn't interest me as much, the solution is more important" once again exemplifies why you are one side of this fence and I am on the other. Call me old-fashioned (or any number of things you doubtless will!) I don't understand how you can ignore the cause if you want to find the solution. Your method appears to me to simply direct itself at the appointed figurehead(s). Is Poch paid 8 million to be that figurehead/spacegoat for everything? I suppose that's a case of opinion isn't it. Not for me.

I think ironically, we may yet end up missing out on top 4 but winning the FA Cup. Ha, what a test of opinions around here the would be!!!!!

Allegri spent 280 million quid on Juve. Mourinho spent what, over 300 mill and was STILL whinging he didn't get enough. Do you really think Levy is going to spend that money? You're obviously into business/bottom lines and what-not. You surely recognize that Levy and ENIC are NEVER going to spend money like that. And if you're now on the Nagelsmann bandwagon, what are you basing the on? Do you seriously, and I mean seriously, trust a 32 year old up and comer to take this project on? Are you going to give him a few years to make it work, to work things out? I have to say I am skeptical.

Pochettino told everyone what would happen if things didn't shift.
"We know what we want to do with this club, it's whether we get the time to do it." THAT'S what Pochettino said post-Sheff.Utd.
I am not blind to his faults. He has made some big mistakes, especially with subs, and Aurier should never fudging wear our shirt again (should have been binned post-Bayern). He trust Eriksen a little too much for my liking, I wish he'd get a new coach to help refresh things inside and I wish he'd get a veteran in on board short term in January. He needs to get tough on the contract mob. More than anything, I wish he could project a little more positivity. He has work to do.

But I remain clear in MY mind that Pochettino is the man who can work within those parameters and build a mkII. If we sack him, I will watch him do it elsewhere, try hard not to be bitter and hope with positivity and optimism that things go upwards...You know what I think should happen, you've made it very clear in another thread how low you hold that opinion, so once again we disagree. I would say "agree to disagree" but somehow I cannot see this debate/discussion/whatever the fudge it is, ending until something definitive happens with regards to Poch either staying or going.

p.s. once again, we have a 2 week break where we are praying for no injuries and Poch has next to no time to work with the squad before WHU.

 

[thfcsteff]

Where we will continue to disagree is that the rot is Poch’s doing, and I suspect if he does go, in ten years time whenever the stories get revealed, we are going to end up feeling quite sorry for the man.

I feel sorry for him now. He is carrying the can for many things beyond his control, 8 million a year or not. In fact, I guarantee he'd give the 8 million back for this season if it meant some of the others around him, including the fudging board and players, would deliver on what he's asked for. There are some wage thieves out there.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Well, too lazy to dig through two seasons but as an indicator

- AVB was fired on 16th December of that season
- 8 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses in 16 games, lowest position of 9th in the table (actually lowest position all season was 9th)
- 50% win ratio
- So 27 points just from those 16 games, ratio of 1.68 ppg

Poch on this season
- 3 wins, 5 draws, 4 losses in 12 games, lowest position of 14th
- 25% win ratio
- So 14 points from 12 games, ratio of 1.17 ppg

But waiting on the excuses .. AVB had twice the fudging win ration of Poch in the season he got fired

So you think having credit in the bank counts for nothing?

 

[thfcsteff]

So you think having credit in the bank counts for nothing?

I think it is clear that not only does Raziel believe any credit was used up long ago given his starting point of the trouble, I think he has made it clear that past is irrelevant to him and only the present counts. That’s what I get. And hey, who am I to refute an opinion? My personal issue arises when opinions other than that one are shot down as somehow being the product of “delusionary madness” to paraphrase the feeling I get. If I am wrong on that I am most happy to apologise.

 

[billyiddo]

3 points from 5th in November is obviously beyond any credit earned guys come on

 

[glasgowspur]

So explain how staying top of league with less points is the same as the below comparison


- 2016/17 Spurs, 19th November, 6 wins, 6 draws, 0 losses, GD +10, 24 points, league position 5th

with

- 2019/20 Spurs, 13th November, 3 wins, 5 draws, 4 losses, GD +1, 14 points, league position 14th


Mate, lets be clear you can dig up statistics/data all day that show exactly the same thing, we have gotten progressively worse since the 2016/17 season and everyone (including me) kept denying it, now it's so glaring that any reasonable look at league position, results and performance on the field will show it.

And again, I'm not taking about we keep the same position with a few less goals or points, I'm talking about being in top 6 or just above bottom 6.

Why should I explain anything?
They are your stats - which may well be correct) and your conclusions (which are tenuous at best).

You think poch should go, that's fine, I understand that, but don't try and distort the facts.

I can't remember a team improving on the stats you quoting year on year, those are fluid snd are dependant on so many things to be useless in the context you use.
The only start worth anything is league position.
At this moment in time if poch was sacked on that I would be unhappy but could understand it.

Just about every season for the 5-6 years one if the big six has struggled and a team from nowhere have had a fast start.
This season it would seem to be us and Sheffield. Usually by the end of the season they finish around about where they should.

 

[superfaisty]

All sorts of rumours in the press about one more game for MP to turn it around, away to Wet Spam. I hope not but I do also hope we go on a winning run soon.

Thought after the last international break the lads would come back refreshed and Mauricio would turn our form around. Our league form has been awful but im struggling to see who is out there that could do a better job than Poch right now. Not ideal to be changing managers now.

Come on Poch audere est facere

 

[Nigeyman]

Shakira “the hips don’t lie”

Raziel “The numbers don’t lie”


No fighting...

 

[scaramanga]

Champions league final, utter disgrace, a sackable offense if there ever was one.

The performance in that final alone should be a stackable offence.