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O/T The Rooney Rule

Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

You don't seem to be getting that the Rooney rule is a crutch.

There is no equality. Whites still dominate.


And the reasons for that has been explained multiple times. The Rooney rule wouldn't solve it.


I do get that the Rooney rule is a crutch. That's why they shouldn't have it.


I want equality. The Rooney rule is about preferential treatment based on race, therefore inequality. Therefore i don't want the Rooney rule. End of.
 
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Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

And the reasons for that has been explained multiple times. The Rooney rule wouldn't solve it.


I do get that the Rooney rule is a crutch. That's why they shouldn't have it.

I'm writing a long post to spurspinter right now, which explains why the Rooney rule has helped.
 
Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

I'm writing a long post to spurspinter right now, which explains why the Rooney rule has helped.


Fair enough. Here's a short post stating that Black managers are represented in britain.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22207522


With only five black managers at English football's 92 professional clubs


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#Population

(The black population) formed around 3.3% of the UK's population in 2011.


Black population forms below 4% of the Uk's population, however their managers form more than 5% of the managerial positions in the football league.

Which is why the Rooney rule is not required. They do not need a crutch. If they are good enough, they get the jobs already.
 
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Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

Oh yes I'm sure every club when looking for a new manager goes "right guys, we need a new manager, although we must make sure not to hire any African Americans, they aren't suitable candidates". If you are looking to hire someone, the only thing that should be taken to account is their ability to perform the job you require them for. Skin colour should have absolutely nothing to do with it. Unfortunately for many many years it did have something to do with it, which is a great injustice I don't think many would disagree. I believe as a nation we're at a point now where it doesn't have something to do with it, and the Rooney rule introduces it back in again.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

That quote seems quite relevant here.

Me, I'm a white male. I plan on living abroad, and potentially I may live in a country where I'll be an ethnic minority. I will seek employment and I will want to know that the reason that I gain interviews and (hopefully) eventually employment will be down to the that I was deemed most suitable for the job, not that I was filling the fudging white guy quota.

I understand that it is "just an interview", I believe that if I was offered such an interview for a role because of my skin colour that I knew I wouldn't have got an interview for if it weren't for my skin colour I would find that pretty fudging offensive.

Do you really think this will help put right decades of discrimination? Oh the whole slave thing is ok because when Fergie retired they had a short meeting with Paul Ince to tick the Rooney Rule box and then decided to hire someone who they actually thought would be suitable for the role, I'm sure that made Mr Ince feel fantastic about the whole situation, we've put the situation right folks, no need to feel guilty anymore \o/

Anyway...That Luongo's looking pretty good for Swindon eh? :)

Well considering that before the Rooney rule, only 6% of coaches in the NFL were black despite being 12% of the population and approximately 60% of NFL players, I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that perhaps race did have something to do with whether the owners considered these individuals suitable candidates to even waste their time interviewing. Indeed, by 2003, the NFL franchises collectively had managed to hire a total of 6 black coaches in their history. This is all obviously a coincidence though.

Even on the playing field, Black players, until very recently anyway, were rarely chosen for the 'thinking roles' on the pitch. Perhaps that has something to do with why they were rarely even picked for interview, despite being a huge % of the playing population.

I think a lot of studies and real life experience show actually that colour (and name) very much have something to do with it. Perhaps this is your own way of not feeling the guilt you seem to think you should have for your ancestor's actions but minorities still undergo very real discrimination and in the USA (not quite as much here imo), structural violence is still very much present, especially with black Americans.

It isn't really relevant is it because blacks are still judged by their skin, still mostly grow up in a different situation to whites. Their life expectancy is less, mother and infant mortality higher (in some areas, like NYC higher than places like the West Bank and Gaza), schools worse, unemployment higher, 'random' stop and searches by the police ridiculously higher, especially to search for drugs (despite evidence showing that blacks are no more likely to be carrying drugs for personal use than hispanics or whites), a huge incarceration rate (40% of the total prison population, a male born in the early 90s has a 1 in 3 chance of spending time in prison in the US, 1 in 3 of black Americans now are involved in the prison system in some way) etc etc.

When we live in a post racial society, then we can remove all rules like this. Considering that we're not, its a joke to quote a man who lived for equality to argue for a situation in which there was and still is no equality.

Firstly, its not analogous at all to compare a black and white man, as all around the world, whites are often seen as superior to others (by non-whites). Secondly, if you get the interview that you otherwise wouldn't have gotten because of your race and then wowed them in the interview and got the job because you're well qualified for it, which is the important point (ie, you're not displacing someone who's white and better qualified simply because of your colour), which would not be successful.

Let me explain the Rooney rule in the simplest possible terms for me:
Give interviews to ethnic minorities who previously have not even been given the chance to interview, despite their high % as playing staff and population
Give the job to the qualified person, regardless of colour
% of coaches who are black has gone from 6% to 22% and they have shown themselves to be as good as white coahces
A black coach has now won the superbowl

Nobody is saying that this will right years of discrimination and indeed your little example is strawman extraordinaire. This won't help erase the memories of what happened before. This doesn't help erase the structural violence that blacks face on a daily basis in the USA. What it does do is give people an opportunity to prove themselves to a panel, who otherwise, whether for reasons of race or not (not of course, we're living in a post racial society where no-one is judged or discriminated against because of their colour right! :p), would not have had the chance.

The correct way of phrasing what will always be an inadequate analogy is that after Ferguson retires, the Man Utd board interview Ince because of the McFadden rule. He wasn't going to get an interview otherwise. Whether that is due to race or not, you can decide for yourselves. Once in the interview however, Ince dazzles and they decide to give him the job because they feel like he is the best candidate. A few years later, Man Utd are going along as normal, winning trophies left, right and centre. Its as if there's no difference in coaching between the white and black man.

Of course, we all know this example is crap because Ince is a brick manager, regardless of his colour.

The crux is, this is an attempt to correct a historical wrong that, despite our moving into this utopian post-racial society, was still very much going on. It doesn't make Whites equal to blacks. It isn't perfect. But it is a step in the right direction. And its certainly better than effectively saying let blacks drown in history and continued structural violence and discrimination.

http://www.lasentinel.net/index.php...black-coaches-in-the-nfl&catid=106&Itemid=196

I'm sure Tomlin felt very offended at his 'token interview' when he won the superbowl. Infact, all minorities were offended by this flagrant racism.

I'll stop there because this is already long enough!
 
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Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

Fair enough. Here's a short post stating that Black managers are represented in britain.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22207522





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#Population




Black population forms below 4% of the Uk's population, however their managers form more than 5% of the managerial positions in the football league.

Which is why the Rooney rule is not required. They do not need a crutch. If they are good enough, they get the jobs already.


Right....except I'm talking about the actual original Rooney rule in the USA, where it was quite clearly needed.

I think the situation in the UK is very different. Of course there's racism here but it isn't to the same extent as the USA and the structural violence is not on the same level. I'm not sure we do need a Rooney rule here.

Finally, we all want 'equality'. However, some people are rather apathetic about getting there because it doesn't personally affect them. Its hard for a downtrodden minority to become equal in a system that has been built to trod on them without some kind of help. I could be selling weapons to one country in a dispute and not another. After 10 years, one is armed to the teeth, the other has nothing. After this, the call for equality is heeded and I either sell weapons equally or stop selling them altogether. Of course, in this 'equality', one is still rather more heavily armed than the other.


And going back on topic, yep sounds like Luongo has been great at Swindon so far. Really looking forward to seeing how he progresses in the next few years.
 
Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

You say the situation in the USA is much better, they have proven they can do the job, they are being hired for it. So when, if not now, do you get rid of the Rooney rule and place everyone on an equal footing?

It has to happen sometime. Otherwise it is just going to cause the negative feelings that started it's necessity in the first place.


You might be talking about the actual Rooney rule, the start of the conversation was about if it should be implemented in Britain. The answer to which is no.


Edit: And some were actually saying it would help make up for the years of discrimination.
 
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Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

You say the situation in the USA is much better, they have proven they can do the job, they are being hired for it. So when, if not now, do you get rid of the Rooney rule and place everyone on an equal footing?

It has to happen sometime. Otherwise it is just going to cause the negative feelings that started it's necessity in the first place.


You might be talking about the actual Rooney rule, the start of the conversation was about if it should be implemented in Britain. The answer to which is no.


Edit: And some were actually saying it would help make up for the years of discrimination.

Depends really, whether you believe that now they've proved themselves equally capable, whether owners will conitnue hiring them rule or no rule or whether all those old rich white men will slip back into old habits.

Cause negative feelings from whom exactly? Again, all it does is require an interview from a minority candidate. You interview 5 people instead of 4. If that person is brick, you don't hire him. It is literally one of the most benign things you can possibly think of in sport.

The start of the conversation was indeed that. Then spurspinter1, who I replied to, moved his argument on to the original Rooney rule and why it is discriminatory and one of those many 'perks' you get as an ethnic minority.

Yes and I'm pretty sure they didn't mean it in the sense that we can forget about slavery, segregation, Birmingham Alabama, structural violence etc etc.
 
Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

The start of the conversation was indeed that. Then spurspinter1, who I replied to, moved his argument on to the original Rooney rule and why it is discriminatory and one of those many 'perks' you get as an ethnic minority.

When I get the time I'll reply properly to your posts, but what you've said there is complete gonads.

"There shouldn't be any drawbacks to being an ethnic minority in society but there most definitely shouldn't be any perks either, we're going for equality, this rule does not support equality"

You've mentioned me using strawmen arguments and then you've gone ahead and completely twisted my words in to something that I didn't say. Disappointing as you do seem to have some interesting points which I'll have a proper look over when I've got a bit more time.
 
Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

Fair enough. Here's a short post stating that Black managers are represented in britain.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22207522





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#Population




Black population forms below 4% of the Uk's population, however their managers form more than 5% of the managerial positions in the football league.

Which is why the Rooney rule is not required. They do not need a crutch. If they are good enough, they get the jobs already.

If the majority of managerial jobs in football were filled by candidates drawn from the general population, or if the point at issue were about a massively unrepresentative negative bias in, say, administration or sales and marketing jobs, this point would have some relevance.
 
Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

If the majority of managerial jobs in football were filled by candidates drawn from the general population, or if the point at issue were about a massively unrepresentative negative bias in, say, administration or sales and marketing jobs, this point would have some relevance.


It is. The Rooney rule to to solve the unrepresentative number of minorities in coaching and management jobs.
 
Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

It is. The Rooney rule to to solve the unrepresentative number of minorities in coaching and management jobs.

...a discussion in which the percentage of ethnic minorities in the population at large is entirely irrelevant, since it is not the pool candidates are fielded from.
 
Re: The Academy, NextGen, U18 & U21 Premier League and On-Loan Thread

...a discussion in which the percentage of ethnic minorities in the population at large is entirely irrelevant, since it is not the pool candidates are fielded from.


However the pool of the candidates is greatly different today than the pool of the candidates that todays management and coaches would have come from due to the increase in black players in the premier league now compared to then.
 
Personally I'm against it, it fights a symptom not the disease, and gives people a chance to say they are doing something when it's clearly not enough.
 
There was a definite problem in the US and the Rooney rule seems to have helped. I moved to the US in the late 80s when the idea of a black quarterback was still questioned, e.g. the novelty of Doug Williams winning the Superbowl. Things have changed dramatically since then. It is still possible that the change from the old attitude of black players not being suitable for the "thinking" roles was the main factor, but the Rooney rule did no harm. Things have changed so that they could probably drop the rule now.

I can think of two differences for football in the UK. First, there were few black players in the 80s, so the pool of ex-players looking for a career in management will have been small until recently. In the NFL there were a lot of black players but few in "thinking" roles. it was openly discussed that they were not suitable. However, the perception that they won't get hired may discourage the black players from the 90s expressing an interest, so I really see no harm in something like the Rooney rule been implemented here.

The bigger problem is how football managers seem to be hired. In the US, the NFL teams do seem to go through a process of interviewing for head coach and coordinator roles. I don't get the impression that many football jobs are handled as systematically. Liverpool hired Rodgers through a process but these were owners involved in American sports. Most seem to be much less formal and usually involve contact with contracted managers, sometimes before a manager has been sacked, especially for changes during the season. A mandatory interview with a minority candidate would complicate things. Although the rule might force a more formal and professional approach to hiring managers if a public short list was required. In some ways, given the merry-go-round of failed managers, you can argue that young English managers don't get looked out regardless of race, so a professional recruiting process might be an improvement.
 
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Just like when Ince, Campbell and Ferdinand were captaining England, I don't think anyone would remark about it if Chris Hughton became the next England manager. We're decades past this.
 
Just like when Ince, Campbell and Ferdinand were captaining England, I don't think anyone would remark about it if Chris Hughton became the next England manager. We're decades past this.

While born in England, he did represent Ireland. I'm not really into all this rivalry anyway.
 
Just like when Ince, Campbell and Ferdinand were captaining England, I don't think anyone would remark about it if Chris Hughton became the next England manager. We're decades past this.

The speculation about possibility of a black manager getting the England job does not mean that black managers have the same opportunities to get club jobs as white managers.
 
All this pontificating by messageboard trolls and no action. At least they are trying to get things even, instead of jerking off
 
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