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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

2008 crash when the people of the UK had to pay for the mistakes of investment bankers through austerity.

And biggest ever transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich through Quantitive Easing to sum offover £500 billion, to bailout the banks and fund investment, that never happened... When really that money should have been used to fund infrastructure projects up and down the country.

And then there is transfers of money between the banks, with each taking a small % each time it was transferred, can't remember the term is, but the EU were threatening to tax these transfers and the banks were crying.

So yeah fleecing us, because we have to pay for the mistakes of investment banks.

Not to mention we live in a debt based consumer society, where people are deliberately squeezed in order to push credit in order to buy stuff.

Who then charge massive interest on credit cards and loans.

Its all about sucking as much from us as possible.

Oh I'm benefit of this housing market investment? Where my rent is double that of social housing for the same sized home.

I feel so enriched.
The financial crash I'll give you partially, but really a lot of it was the result of policy decisions impacting the whole system. The global recession in the late 90s/early 2000s brought about by the east Asian economic crisis, .com bubble and the introduction of the euro led to job losses and a housing market slowdown across many countries but particularly the US which caused the US policymakers to put in a raft of stimulus measures in an effort to create a "soft landing and takeoff" effect. Despite the UK being relatively unaffected, the Blair led government was in absolute lockstep with their US counterparts and mirrored US policy, including a programme of deregulation and economic stimulation (remember "it's the end of boom and bust"). Banks were encouraged to become less conservative and make credit more freely available to boost bottom end supply. The banks reacted by securitising these riskier loans to try and maintain a balanced asset sheet, but as these practises increased, the capital markets became saturated by higher-risk assets, leading to a loss of confidence, which became a crisis in confidence after the collapse of Lehman Bros and banks stopped trading with each other. This led to what was described as "the credit crunch" - the drying up of bank credit. That led to the failure of businesses that rely on bank credit for cash flow and the wider "financial crash".

On your point about banks moving money between each other - you need to understand why this happens. Happens kind of for two main reasons:

- Firstly, every bank holds accounts with other banks. When you make a payment to another person or business, your bank moves the money to its account held with the bank with which the other person/business banks with. It sends a message to the other bank asking it to credit those funds to the relevant account. In the UK we have automated clearance systems now like Faster Payments but internationally it's still very manual and clunky behind the scenes.

- Secondly you have wholesale banking or liquidity management. Banks are required to hold regulatory capital, which includes a certain amount of liquid assets that can be monetised as cash quickly to meet spikes in demand. By demand, I mean customers wanting to withdraw their money. Banks take deposits from customers and use these funds to lend to other customers. But they have to maintain capital reserves in liquid assets as I've said. Banks trade assets with each other for the purpose of managing liquidity - so NatWest might be experiencing a spike in demand of customers withdrawing, which is diminishing it's liquidity. So it might approach the market and sell some of its government or bank bonds, say to Barclays, in order to maintain its positions.

I mean ultimately you've got to think about what a bank is - when you say the EU was threatening to increase tax on these transactions - they were threatening to tax YOUR money.
 
The main reason the public gets 'fleeced' by financial institutions is a lack of education. It's a crime it's not a big part of the curriculum. And imo that's on purpose.
100%. Actually the bank I work for run their own education curriculum in schools. I've been a part of it for 5 years now - once or twice a year I go in to primary schools and I teach the kids about money and interest rates and how to tell whether they're getting a good deal. It's absolutely fantastic- but it should be part of the curriculum.
 
I'm generally ok with that, if it makes me more productive and life easier I can square that in my own head.

Conversely the problem I witness with youngsters endless hours on smartphones and SM is 95% of the time they are consuming mind numbing brick:) .

I've never engaged with social media (beyond this site and watching YouTube) but it's gravitational pull and disruptive affect on all areas of life is incessant, even to a non user.

It's actually incredible. The neuroscience behind it has to be fascinating.

I remember the advent of digital music, especially given what I do. The point being raised by Metallica with the initial Napster was not about THEIR money more than it was about the idea that created art could be taken and exploited by a third party. They also made the point that in what seemed to be an initial 'freedom' of the internet in music, there would always be marketing involved to steer public tastes, except that with no physical product, the profit margins for companies would be huge. The percentage of streaming income is actually pathetic and hard to properly 100% regulate, so unless you are a giant act, streaming income means nothing really. Everything they said would happen has happened, and as a result, it means bands can really only make a living touring and selling merchandise. Yet we have largely been 're-wired' by the convenience of streaming. I am no saint, I use Apple Music (makes me a hypocrite of course) but if I get free tickets for shows I always look to buy a piece of merch (usually a t-shirt) especially for smaller bands.

A bit of a tangent there mate (!!!!) but you can see the wider circle I know...
 
100%. Actually the bank I work for run their own education curriculum in schools. I've been a part of it for 5 years now - once or twice a year I go in to primary schools and I teach the kids about money and interest rates and how to tell whether they're getting a good deal. It's absolutely fantastic- but it should be part of the curriculum.

That's great to hear. Nice one.

Regardless of any personal opinions about the current system, etc, the fact is it IS the system, and rather than just complain, it's good to know how it works. It's especially important for kids to know early...so yes, nice one.
 
Interesting video on the lies told about spin about beef farming in the UK, and it's carbon foot print (Carbon footprint is a scam created by the oil industry to make us feel guilty).

Raises some interesting points to consider and I don't gerenetally agree with everything.

 
Another interesting video... This farmer pointes out the same concerns as me, rapid population growth (80% from migrants and children) and food production.

Nobody is looking at this square peg and round hole.

 
Another interesting video... This farmer pointes out the same concerns as me, rapid population growth (80% from migrants and children) and food production.

Nobody is looking at this square peg and round hole.

An interesting video.

The document he's commenting on basically is saying we need..
1. Healthier diets
2. Less emissions.

He baulks/pushes back on that simply for one reason....money.
Every time he says 'unreliable' he means 'unprofitable'.
I'm not being critical of him. This is the realities of farming (and yes, Clarkson's farm will give anyone a good insight into this).

The gold standard of farming, from a nations pov should be
1. Food for healthier diets
2. Healthier ground/soil
3. Food security...grow as much as we can in the UK..has knock on environmental plusses as well.
4. Farmers need to earn a decent living.

On population, As he stated, 85% of farmland is used to raise livestock. That must be a hell of a lot of acreage. And I hazard a guess it's that way because it's easier and more profitable?. If we reduced that to 50% how much land does that free up?. What is the potential output of that land versus population?

I've have said before that one critical pillar of society is food and as such, money shouldn't be at the centre of that pulling all the levers. If it takes subsidies so farmers feel valued for their skills, and they feel secure so can enact on advice and direction handed down. (Without having to think about bloody money all the time)

Farmers themselves need to be part of a joined up holistic overview, they know they're land. Generally we have a good climate for crop growing. (Compared to....)

I even think they're should be some thought into ways to circumnavigate (or price controls for) supermarkets. (For farm produce, fresh food)
 
Shifting from beef to kangaroo is the easiest way to make a massive difference. Healthier meat to eat (leaner), but just as tasty. And animals that take up much less grazing room per pound of meat, plus release massively less methane (a key greenhouse gas).
 
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An interesting video.

The document he's commenting on basically is saying we need..
1. Healthier diets
2. Less emissions.

He baulks/pushes back on that simply for one reason....money.
Every time he says 'unreliable' he means 'unprofitable'.
I'm not being critical of him. This is the realities of farming (and yes, Clarkson's farm will give anyone a good insight into this).

The gold standard of farming, from a nations pov should be
1. Food for healthier diets
2. Healthier ground/soil
3. Food security...grow as much as we can in the UK..has knock on environmental plusses as well.
4. Farmers need to earn a decent living.

On population, As he stated, 85% of farmland is used to raise livestock. That must be a hell of a lot of acreage. And I hazard a guess it's that way because it's easier and more profitable?. If we reduced that to 50% how much land does that free up?. What is the potential output of that land versus population?

I've have said before that one critical pillar of society is food and as such, money shouldn't be at the centre of that pulling all the levers. If it takes subsidies so farmers feel valued for their skills, and they feel secure so can enact on advice and direction handed down. (Without having to think about bloody money all the time)

Farmers themselves need to be part of a joined up holistic overview, they know they're land. Generally we have a good climate for crop growing. (Compared to....)

I even think they're should be some thought into ways to circumnavigate (or price controls for) supermarkets. (For farm produce, fresh food)
On my way back from shopping, but other studies have shown we cant grow enough to feed our population.

You cant go making assuptions on that % as lots of the uk is hilly, do you think you can grow crops in the Highlands, hills of Wales and North of England?

Then there is soil type.

And unreliable means unrealiable.

And why shouldn't farmers make a profit?

Not unless you think food should be produced big compainies owning all the land whos only interest is profits and looking after investors?

Of course, they answer will be various shades of grey.

But what i do know, is that which ever way you put the UK cant grow enough food, 60% comes from abroad.

And 200,000 a year on top natural population growth is not a good thing.

Edit: Here is amap of soil PH across the England and Wales. It massively affects what farmers can do.

soil-acidity-in-the-united-kingdom-l.jpg
 
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Generally we have a good climate for crop growing. (Compared to....)

The landscape tends to determine that. Generally we have pasture in the west (wetter, uplands) and arable in the east (drier, flat). You'd struggle to switch between the two. If either weren't being used for what they currently are, they'd be best rewilded.
 
Shifting from beef to kangaroo is the easiest way to make a massive difference. Healthier meat to eat (leaner), but just as tasty. And animals that take up much less grazing room per pound of meat, plus release massively less methane (a key greenhouse gas).
Chicken?

And chicken poo is a great fertilizer.

But beef grown in the UK is not as bad as it is made or to be.

But then I would like a return to the oplder way of farming, with crop rotation with live stock, put cows in a field, let them fertalise it. Then move them on to another field the following year and so forth. Saves on expensive fertaliser and excellent for soil ecology.

But we can't do this, because of the pressures of food production for a rapidly growing population. Slthough I remember reading somewhere that this can be as productive as industrial farming... So not sure on this.
 
And why shouldn't farmers make a profit?
Er yeah. Agreed. Was someone not agreeing?
My point was we need to facilitate them making a good living farming for the greater good NOT commercial decisions

Not unless you think food should be produced big compainies owning all the land whos only interest is profits and looking after investors?
I'm not thinking that. Not even close to that... and nothing I said suggested that. Bizarre.

But what i do know, is that which ever way you put the UK cant grow enough food, 60% comes from abroad.
We will always have to import food.
The more we can produce ourselves the better.

You cant go making assuptions on that % as lots of the uk is hilly, do you think you can grow crops in the Highlands, hills of Wales and North of England
No I don't...you would graze livestock on them (I wouldn't want my Welsh Hill Lamb disappearing :)).
I'm sure there is lots of arable land suitable for crops that are used for grazing.
Then there are the crops the farmer chooses to grow. (Animal feed and seed oils :()
Most of that will be based entirely by a commercial decision, hence the lack of vegetables.

And that was the basis of my post (wasn't hard to decipher), remove money as the deciding factor, and we have a chance to change the farming landscape (pun intended).
 
Er yeah. Agreed. Was someone not agreeing?
My point was we need to facilitate them making a good living farming for the greater good NOT commercial decisions


I'm not thinking that. Not even close to that... and nothing I said suggested that. Bizarre.


We will always have to import food.
The more we can produce ourselves the better.



No I don't...you would graze livestock on them (I wouldn't want my Welsh Hill Lamb disappearing :)).
I'm sure there is lots of arable land suitable for crops that are used for grazing.
Then there are the crops the farmer chooses to grow. (Animal feed and seed oils :()
Most of that will be based entirely by a commercial decision, hence the lack of vegetables.

And that was the basis of my post (wasn't hard to decipher), remove money as the deciding factor, and we have a chance to change the farming landscape (pun intended).
Of course, and I don;t disagree with you.

So why add 200,000 people a year to system that couldn't grow enough food long before we joined the EU?

But we are not going to be able to grow more food though, we are already at our limits. As I pointed out previously, the Fens (Britains food basket) has lost 9ft of rich topsoil in somepl places thanks to intensive farming since 50's/60's, this rich fertile land is close to collapsing.

The landscape tends to determine that. Generally we have pasture in the west (wetter, uplands) and arable in the east (drier, flat). You'd struggle to switch between the two. If either weren't being used for what they currently are, they'd be best rewilded.

As gutter boy pointed out, we can't just go and switch between the two, as farmers are generally doing what is best for the land they have.

All we are doing is adding 200,000 people a year on top of natural population growth, then expecting miracles to happen. We can't grow more food. And to support 200,000 people a year, we need to build new homes, most of which is being built on farmland, I know, because I am the one doing bat and ecological surveys (GCN mainly) on them.

I would love us to go back to traditional farming, with field rotation between livestock and crop, re-estabiblish old hedge rows, but I don't think we can. As it would save so much on fertilizer as the soul ecology would be nice and healthy and naturally fertalised.

As you pointed out if you stop growing seed oils in the UK great stuff, but it just means we will need to import from abroad, causing exactly the same issues overseas, except foreign countries, mainly third world, will be growing it for it us, rather than themselves. Which prevents them using their land to growing food for their growing popualtions.

Like this study regarding the movement our carbon footprint overseas, mainly due to food production. - Will add later a guest has arrived... I will also post some other stuff too.

Regardless of how we re-jig our farming system, what ever we don't produce ourselves we will need to be produced overseas, there is no two ways about it and this has a massive impact in other coutries. Just like the over fishing off the coast of Senegal by the EU and China, is driving migration of fisherman from Sengal to the EU, that just reinforces a negative feed back loop, that is only speeding up.

I don't disagree with lots of what you say, but the truth is, there is not much we can do, as we are doing all we can, and the ecosystems arounds farms are collapsing at an alarming rate, due to this pressure to grow... And this government thing the farmer was pointing out, is just their to make the government look good and green, but doesn't take into account population growth. How can you make a police about food, then ignore population, it is nuts and will only makes things worse and put more pressure on foreign countries to supply us, to their own detriment and the natural world.

I am not having a go at your or anything, I just don't think we can do much about it.
 
I think the general consensus is that while it wasn't quite Truss/Kwartang (it didn't inspire panic), Starmer/Reeves first budget went down like a lead balloon....there's now very little confidence that the UK is in safe economic hands and most forecasts for the UK are being revised downwards.
 
Of course, and I don;t disagree with you.

So why add 200,000 people a year to system that couldn't grow enough food long before we joined the EU?

But we are not going to be able to grow more food though, we are already at our limits. As I pointed out previously, the Fens (Britains food basket) has lost 9ft of rich topsoil in somepl places thanks to intensive farming since 50's/60's, this rich fertile land is close to collapsing.



As gutter boy pointed out, we can't just go and switch between the two, as farmers are generally doing what is best for the land they have.

All we are doing is adding 200,000 people a year on top of natural population growth, then expecting miracles to happen. We can't grow more food. And to support 200,000 people a year, we need to build new homes, most of which is being built on farmland, I know, because I am the one doing bat and ecological surveys (GCN mainly) on them.

I would love us to go back to traditional farming, with field rotation between livestock and crop, re-estabiblish old hedge rows, but I don't think we can. As it would save so much on fertilizer as the soul ecology would be nice and healthy and naturally fertalised.

As you pointed out if you stop growing seed oils in the UK great stuff, but it just means we will need to import from abroad, causing exactly the same issues overseas, except foreign countries, mainly third world, will be growing it for it us, rather than themselves. Which prevents them using their land to growing food for their growing popualtions.

Like this study regarding the movement our carbon footprint overseas, mainly due to food production. - Will add later a guest has arrived... I will also post some other stuff too.

Regardless of how we re-jig our farming system, what ever we don't produce ourselves we will need to be produced overseas, there is no two ways about it and this has a massive impact in other coutries. Just like the over fishing off the coast of Senegal by the EU and China, is driving migration of fisherman from Sengal to the EU, that just reinforces a negative feed back loop, that is only speeding up.

I don't disagree with lots of what you say, but the truth is, there is not much we can do, as we are doing all we can, and the ecosystems arounds farms are collapsing at an alarming rate, due to this pressure to grow... And this government thing the farmer was pointing out, is just their to make the government look good and green, but doesn't take into account population growth. How can you make a police about food, then ignore population, it is nuts and will only makes things worse and put more pressure on foreign countries to supply us, to their own detriment and the natural world.

I am not having a go at your or anything, I just don't think we can do much about it.
A lot of farmers are selling land to property developers to keep their farm going. It's very difficult to keep a small to medium sized farm going in this country now, as the costs of running a farm are horrific, and a lot of the smaller businesses that used to buy off the smaller farms (your local butchers and grocers) have been killed off by the big supermarkets and convenience store chains. The few big industrial farming operations that have got the contracts with Tesco etc are doing OK, but farming overall is a dying industry in this country.
 
85% of agricultural land is used for livestock production including at least 40% of UK agricultural land is used to grow animal fodder. Reduce meat production/consumption and that frees up a lot of arable land for seed oils or even more direct food crops. There are geographical limitations (rainfall, soil type, pH etc) but there is a lot of green wheat and maize grown for cattle on land that could (and does when there is a shortage in the Ukraine, for example) grow grasses for milling.

Lamb production takes up a significant amount of land for something less than 2% of dietary contributions. You can use sheep in conservation grazing to produce some lamb but uplands could be meaningfully wilded to improve flood protection, increase biodiversity, protect peatlands, improve carbon capture etc etc.

At least 5% of UK agricultural land is used to keep horses and given we aren't French and the Daily Mail outrage at those pesky Balkan people sticking horse meat in to frozen lasagnes a few years ago I'm not sure what the agricultural contribution those paddocks are making is ....

the UK grows about 10 million pumpkins a year - how many of those are just carved and binned (hopefully not put out for wildlife)? I don't know anyone who eats the insides really, unlike the USA there doesn't seem to be a market for pumpkin pie or cake or anything beyond a a little pumpkin soup.

Fastest growing agricultural sector over the last 3 years (although starting from a miniscule base) - vineyards.

Little things but there are significant tweaks in the system that would allow greater human food production and improve food security.


Also there is a conflation in discussions about food figures between food security and self-sufficiency. Our import imbalance is driven by our diet - we can't grow bananas or citrus well here (let alone avocado or mango for the 'lefty elite blob') but want them so import them. That lowers our self-sufficiency figures but they aren't necessarily part of food security. On the other hand though, in a globally connected economy, if we cut down on imports, that impacts the economies on other countries and can increase migration similarly to the Senegalese fisherman situation. Growing cut flowers in Kenya for import to M&S is just madness, though I had an interesting conversation a few years ago with a West African who talked about the local value of palm oil production for their economy and how that was being hit by global movements against palm oil due to rainforest destruction especially in south Asia.

Final point - food waste in the UK is something like 10 million tonnes per year - enough to feed an estimated 30 million people. So there is quite little a bit of wriggle room there if the systems of provisioning were improved or lifestyles were adapted (links probably back to Kompacted's comment about the disappearance of local provisioning and the domination of big supermarkets)

Population globally and in the UK is an issue (and will become increasingly more so) but it is an issue that is amplified by consumption demands and the limitations of access from the market. Migration figures are only part of the issue. Food poverty in the UK is mainly driven by financial constraints rather than food scarcity. Lack of self-sufficiency in food production is mainly driven by lifestyle/consumerism.
 
85% of agricultural land is used for livestock production including at least 40% of UK agricultural land is used to grow animal fodder. Reduce meat production/consumption and that frees up a lot of arable land for seed oils or even more direct food crops. There are geographical limitations (rainfall, soil type, pH etc) but there is a lot of green wheat and maize grown for cattle on land that could (and does when there is a shortage in the Ukraine, for example) grow grasses for milling.

Lamb production takes up a significant amount of land for something less than 2% of dietary contributions. You can use sheep in conservation grazing to produce some lamb but uplands could be meaningfully wilded to improve flood protection, increase biodiversity, protect peatlands, improve carbon capture etc etc.

At least 5% of UK agricultural land is used to keep horses and given we aren't French and the Daily Mail outrage at those pesky Balkan people sticking horse meat in to frozen lasagnes a few years ago I'm not sure what the agricultural contribution those paddocks are making is ....

the UK grows about 10 million pumpkins a year - how many of those are just carved and binned (hopefully not put out for wildlife)? I don't know anyone who eats the insides really, unlike the USA there doesn't seem to be a market for pumpkin pie or cake or anything beyond a a little pumpkin soup.

Fastest growing agricultural sector over the last 3 years (although starting from a miniscule base) - vineyards.

Little things but there are significant tweaks in the system that would allow greater human food production and improve food security.


Also there is a conflation in discussions about food figures between food security and self-sufficiency. Our import imbalance is driven by our diet - we can't grow bananas or citrus well here (let alone avocado or mango for the 'lefty elite blob') but want them so import them. That lowers our self-sufficiency figures but they aren't necessarily part of food security. On the other hand though, in a globally connected economy, if we cut down on imports, that impacts the economies on other countries and can increase migration similarly to the Senegalese fisherman situation. Growing cut flowers in Kenya for import to M&S is just madness, though I had an interesting conversation a few years ago with a West African who talked about the local value of palm oil production for their economy and how that was being hit by global movements against palm oil due to rainforest destruction especially in south Asia.

Final point - food waste in the UK is something like 10 million tonnes per year - enough to feed an estimated 30 million people. So there is quite little a bit of wriggle room there if the systems of provisioning were improved or lifestyles were adapted (links probably back to Kompacted's comment about the disappearance of local provisioning and the domination of big supermarkets)

Population globally and in the UK is an issue (and will become increasingly more so) but it is an issue that is amplified by consumption demands and the limitations of access from the market. Migration figures are only part of the issue. Food poverty in the UK is mainly driven by financial constraints rather than food scarcity. Lack of self-sufficiency in food production is mainly driven by lifestyle/consumerism.
I agree that food security isn't really an issue in the UK. The UK hasn't been self-sufficient in food consumption since the early days of the Empire when we started importing all sorts of "exotic" goods like tea and coffee at scale. The axis powers tried to strangle our supplies in WW2 and didn't manage it. Therefore the issue isn't security, although as you say there is an issue with food price inflation brought about by choices (so much of our fruit consumption is "exotic" it pushes up the price of produce across the board meaning fruit that can easily be grown at volume in this country such as berries and apples are sold at inflated prices in supermarkets
 
I agree that food security isn't really an issue in the UK. The UK hasn't been self-sufficient in food consumption since the early days of the Empire when we started importing all sorts of "exotic" goods like tea and coffee at scale. The axis powers tried to strangle our supplies in WW2 and didn't manage it. Therefore the issue isn't security, although as you say there is an issue with food price inflation brought about by choices (so much of our fruit consumption is "exotic" it pushes up the price of produce across the board meaning fruit that can easily be grown at volume in this country such as berries and apples are sold at inflated prices in supermarkets

It's a great conversation. If the UK were to have the capacity to produce these foods, would the consumers shift their eating habits based on price and UK loyalty. I'd love to know how much of my own diet come from the UK vs non UK on an annual basis.

Then there is the bigger conversation about the foods we create to feed the animals we eat over and above what we eat ourselves. That is a significant part of this complex food chain. I can't imagine the impact of every meat eater not eating meat for just one day a week.
 
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