Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Gutter Boy]

Spain one of the first major countries to become majority reliant on "renewable" energy (56% of energy generation - inc. 23% wind and 22% solar) and one the first major European countries to return to major grid failures......the Spanish government is claiming there is no link between the two ....although experts have stated that they have not matched the investment in generation infrastructure with storage infrastructure, which is required for renewables to prevent wastage of over-generation and to stabilise the grid in periods of undergeberation (when it isn't raining, windy or sunny).

As we also surpassed the 50% mark in 2024, let's hope our government and energy sector didn't make the same mistakes ....

Uruguay have been virtually 100% wind, solo and hydro for 15 years. Where there's a will there's the way.

 

[Grays_1890]

Uruguay have been virtually 100% wind, solo and hydro for 15 years. Where there's a will there's the way.

There are some tremendously knowledgeable people on here about energy, way beyond me, but surely the facts of the matter are that eventually there will need to be a switch and those that reach that place first, whilst being the leader in development will stand in a good place? Surely thats just a part of good planning? The first through the wall often get the bloodiest nose and all that.

 

[Rorschach]

Spain one of the first major countries to become majority reliant on "renewable" energy (56% of energy generation - inc. 23% wind and 22% solar) and one the first major European countries to return to major grid failures......the Spanish government is claiming there is no link between the two ....although experts have stated that they have not matched the investment in generation infrastructure with storage infrastructure, which is required for renewables to prevent wastage of over-generation and to stabilise the grid in periods of undergeberation (when it isn't raining, windy or sunny).

As we also surpassed the 50% mark in 2024, let's hope our government and energy sector didn't make the same mistakes ....

There are certainly lessons to be learned from this outage. All operators use events like this, which have happened on a smaller scale before, as a learning exercise. Renewables did not cause the initial grid outage, though. Two generators in Spain went out at almost the same time and the system has a tolerance of one failure. Why they went out is not known as yet but there were voltage spikes observed around this time which could have been the cause of the generators disconnecting. Once two went down, within 3 seconds there was a cascade of failures which meant the connection to France automatically disconnected to protect the French grid. This resulted in a loss of the inertia from the EU grid which would have been used to try to correct the failure. Once Spain was on it's own it didn't have enough thermal generators up to compensate and so everything went off. This all took about 5 seconds start to finish.

There are ways to compensate for all this as renewables use increases (lack of inertia). This is not a storage problem, though. There is missing infrastructure in the Spanish grid which it needs to be built to handle this situation. A bit of bad luck and lack of foresight from the grid operator played a part too. Ireland has a model grid for renewables, I believe, as it is small and the swings in renewable output (wind generation mostly) are huge.

 

[Rorschach]

Uruguay have been virtually 100% wind, solo and hydro for 15 years. Where there's a will there's the way.

Yes this is already a solved problem.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Yes this is already a solved problem.

Uruguay has a small population concentrated in a relatively small area. It's like when people compare us to Scandinavian countries and say "we should do what they do". In context, London alone probably requires near enough the same energy output as most of Spain, let alone Uruguay....

Outside of London you have areas such as the M62 corridor where you have a string of large cities and towns clumped close together with vast interconnected transport and service infrastructures: Liverpool, Blackburn, Greater Manchester, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster, Hull. Combined population >6 million and all within a few hours travel of each other. There's no equivalent of this in most of Europe and the Americas. Only industrial parts of Germany come close.

 

[Grays_1890]

There are certainly lessons to be learned from this outage. All operators use events like this, which have happened on a smaller scale before, as a learning exercise. Renewables did not cause the initial grid outage, though. Two generators in Spain went out at almost the same time and the system has a tolerance of one failure. Why they went out is not known as yet but there were voltage spikes observed around this time which could have been the cause of the generators disconnecting. Once two went down, within 3 seconds there was a cascade of failures which meant the connection to France automatically disconnected to protect the French grid. This resulted in a loss of the inertia from the EU grid which would have been used to try to correct the failure. Once Spain was on it's own it didn't have enough thermal generators up to compensate and so everything went off. This all took about 5 seconds start to finish.

There are ways to compensate for all this as renewables use increases (lack of inertia). This is not a storage problem, though. There is missing infrastructure in the Spanish grid which it needs to be built to handle this situation. A bit of bad luck and lack of foresight from the grid operator played a part too. Ireland has a model grid for renewables, I believe, as it is small and the swings in renewable output (wind generation mostly) are huge.

Yeh, surely if you take the initial hysteria out of these situations its a case of, this is the steps of progression that need to be taken and lessons to be learnt, rather than "its never going to work lets give up". I mean I am sat here today knowing this is not what it was always like for us, even in our current form of usage.

 

[Rorschach]

Uruguay has a small population concentrated in a relatively small area. It's like when people compare us to Scandinavian countries and say "we should do what they do". In context, London alone probably requires near enough the same energy output as most of Spain, let alone Uruguay....

Outside of London you have areas such as the M62 corridor where you have a string of large cities and towns clumped close together with vast interconnected transport and service infrastructures: Liverpool, Blackburn, Greater Manchester, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster, Hull. Combined population >6 million and all within a few hours travel of each other. There's no equivalent of this in most of Europe and the Americas. Only industrial parts of Germany come close.

The tech for managing increased renewables on a grid is known, though. It just needs to be deployed, and so that is a balance of risk vs. cost, with maybe a bit of politics thrown in. I think a bit of cutting corners on this infrastructure in Spain is part of what happened in the conversations I've heard.

 

[Rorschach]

Yeh, surely if you take the initial hysteria out of these situations its a case of, this is the steps of progression that need to be taken and lessons to be learnt, rather than "its never going to work lets give up". I mean I am sat here today knowing this is not what it was always like for us, even in our current form of usage.

The grid is one of the most amazing machines on the planet, and easily the biggest. We take it for granted for the most part. To have all those generators in total sync is an engineering wonder. Adding renewables into this machine brings its own set of challenges because of the intermittency and other factors, but they know how to do it at this stage. This evolution is something we can't avoid anyway.

 

[Grays_1890]

The grid is one of the most amazing machines on the planet, and easily the biggest. We take it for granted for the most part. To have all those generators in total sync is an engineering wonder. Adding renewables into this machine brings its own set of challenges because of the intermittency and other factors, but they know how to do it at this stage. This evolution is something we can't avoid anyway.

Absolutely mate and the grid didn't start as the grid, we got there over time, as I suspect this will take.......time.

I am no scientist but its clear that you can't keep relying on what we currently rely on because there is not an endless supply of the stuff, you don't have to be a net zero nut or a conspiracy theorist to know the simple maths just doesn't add up anymore.

And we can't rely on people to be less greedy and less consumer monsters because as we know, people just won't have it

 

[Gutter Boy]

Uruguay has a small population concentrated in a relatively small area. It's like when people compare us to Scandinavian countries and say "we should do what they do". In context, London alone probably requires near enough the same energy output as most of Spain, let alone Uruguay....

Outside of London you have areas such as the M62 corridor where you have a string of large cities and towns clumped close together with vast interconnected transport and service infrastructures: Liverpool, Blackburn, Greater Manchester, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster, Hull. Combined population >6 million and all within a few hours travel of each other. There's no equivalent of this in most of Europe and the Americas. Only industrial parts of Germany come close.

Scandinavia is a bit different as it has its geothermal. But we are probably blessed with the biggest supply of offshore wind per head of population of any large country, along with perhaps Japan. So you work with your circumstances. Uruguay had no geographic advantages, they just had vision and determination.

 

[scaramanga]

Scandinavia is a bit different as it has its geothermal. But we are probably blessed with the biggest supply of offshore wind per head of population of any large country, along with perhaps Japan. So you work with your circumstances. Uruguay had no geographic advantages, they just had vision and determination.

Really? No large, unpopulated areas where they could install wind farms? No large, flat plains to capture the wind from the Atlantic? How about a landscape that allows for a large, hydroelectric backup that would cover most of their needs when it isn't windy?

 

[Rorschach]

Really? No large, unpopulated areas where they could install wind farms? No large, flat plains to capture the wind from the Atlantic? How about a landscape that allows for a large, hydroelectric backup that would cover most of their needs when it isn't windy?

Gravity hydro batteries are making a bit of a comeback. I think the UK has a plan for a few big ones already in motion.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Spain one of the first major countries to become majority reliant on "renewable" energy (56% of energy generation - inc. 23% wind and 22% solar) and one the first major European countries to return to major grid failures......the Spanish government is claiming there is no link between the two ....although experts have stated that they have not matched the investment in generation infrastructure with storage infrastructure, which is required for renewables to prevent wastage of over-generation and to stabilise the grid in periods of undergeberation (when it isn't raining, windy or sunny).

As we also surpassed the 50% mark in 2024, let's hope our government and energy sector didn't make the same mistakes ....

Surely in times of surplus...if you've exhausted storage capacity then don't you just start pumping water uphill into a reservoir. Or have I simplified things too much?.

 

[scaramanga]

Surely in times of surplus...if you've exhausted storage capacity then don't you just start pumping water uphill into a reservoir. Or have I simplified things too much?.

That's currently the best large scale storage available.

Problem is, it's only around 60% efficient at best (at least last time I read anything about it). It also relies on having the correct geographical features available and in the right scale.

 

[scaramanga]

Gravity hydro batteries are making a bit of a comeback. I think the UK has a plan for a few big ones already in motion.

Makes a lot of sense, they are usually far more reliable that just about anything but tidal power in terms of renewables.

Shame we don't really have the geographical features to do a lot of that. Where we do have them, people tend to want to preserve the natural side of things.

 

[Rorschach]

Surely in times of surplus...if you've exhausted storage capacity then don't you just start pumping water uphill into a reservoir. Or have I simplified things too much?.

You are describing a gravity battery and that usually is classed as storage too. I think the main reason why there are not more of them is that the turbine bit in the middle is complicated and expensive. Though as I said above there is a bunch more of them on the way in the UK.

@scaramanga - you will like this one as it says your favourite line at the end

 

[scaramanga]

You are describing a gravity battery and that usually is classed as storage too. I think the main reason why there are not more of them is that the turbine bit in the middle is complicated and expensive. Though as I said above there is a bunch more of them on the way in the UK.

@scaramanga - you will like this one as it says your favourite line at the end

5 mins long?

I'll have to take your word for it

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

NHS waitig lists and can't afford a house? Might help if we didn't have a net migration of 750,000 a year. That's a city bigger than liverpool that would have to be built every year. Just to meet demand.

Your not allowed to mention that