Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[thfcsteff]

I didnt say it was orderly. I used the word "desperation" to describe the process. The root cause of it did probably lie in pandemic planning around PPE and supply chain resilience (good luck with a foreign supplier in a global pandemic). I just take exception with hyperbolic factually inaccurate claims, particularly where it has become mantra across media and public that "the government handed contracts to their mates" not one bit of that sentence is even remotely true.

Probably not a paper you read, but nonetheless...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rth-15bn-had-corruption-red-flags-study-finds

Politico not on your list either I'd guess? Apologies if wrongly assumed...

https://www.politico.eu/article/mic...-mone-admits-making-millions-covid-contracts/

If this item from the BBC doesn't at least raise a question in someone, then I'd suggest that person is determined to disregard any notion of wrongdoing regardless of any information/facts coming to light...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60176283

...more on Mone...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/25/michelle-mone-leading-entrepreneur-or-lucky-baroness

...and this is rather damning...

https://www.open-contracting.org/20...e-thought-new-analysis-raises-more-red-flags/

I take exception to this situation -which remains under scrutiny and analysis, and which has shown a dark hand several times- being written off as 'hyperbolic' and 'factually inaccurate'.

 

[thfcsteff]

Personally I don’t buy this. Have workers ever been as protected within western societies as they are today? Are our approaches to inclusion bettered in past decades? Or was there a greater focus on carbon footprints previously within our capitalist system?

Ironically, China, a nation run by the communist party of China, has some of the least represented workers in the world. There are ample protections in the UK and Europe, the same can’t be said of China.

But that is not my biggest gripe with this negative outlook. It is that it offers no alternative. Or how we should get there.

https://stateline.org/2023/06/20/ma...r-breaks-for-outdoor-workers-in-extreme-heat/

In fairness, the Biden admin is looking to federally mandate these things, but the fact it's still a question in 2024 should be alarming.

Some interesting reading...
https://weceurope.org/news-post/ilo...t-forecast-is-dotted-with-fragile-resilience/

This report breaks down national poverty very well IMO.
https://www.jrf.org.uk/uk-poverty-2024-the-essential-guide-to-understanding-poverty-in-the-uk

BTW, zero hour contracts are not the best way forward for treating workers with respect.

I am not sure what your reason for mentioning China was. I don't think anyone discussing this matter is suggesting a return to the Chinese model of economic and social operation.

 

[thfcsteff]

Better off without the leeches either way. Everyone should pay fair tax, or fudge off to some desert hellhole.

I'd like to add that the award of private contracts to facilitate public utilities/systems should be far, far more transparent and monitored. I'd also like to see contracts going to who does the BEST work. I'm all for efficiency but not to the detriment of the service provided.

 

[Bullet]

I just take exception with hyperbolic factually inaccurate claims, particularly where it has become mantra across media and public that "the government handed contracts to their mates" not one bit of that sentence is even remotely true.

Balderdash; the Tory VIP lane was unlawful. Donors were handed contracts far in excess of what their reputation warranted, whilst existing suppliers were snubbed and unable to help out even when they reached out.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-12-06/debates/CC966116-A7FF-4470-81EF-203E0C520A0E/GovernmentPPEContracts

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xtent-of-tory-donor-access-to-matt-hanrooster

Conservative peer helped land £50m PPE contract for firm linked to fellow Tory

Former party chairman referred SG Recruitment to ‘VIP lane’ after introduction by peer who owned shares in parent company

www.theguardian.com

Timeline: Covid contracts and accusations of 'chumocracy'

The government has spent billions of pounds on thousands of deals with private firms.

www.bbc.co.uk

‘Secret’ PPE contract handed to Tory donor’s firm now worth £11m

Labour says government ‘must’ publish contract details still under wraps after 18 months

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Kompakted]

On topic of growth/degrowth:

- Both main parties have talked about the need to boost growth in the UK.
- This is interesting to me as headline GDP growth is never a reliable indicator of economic performance, particularly in the UK.
- GDP in the UK is skewed by two key factors: our status as the world's largest processor of cross border financial transactions. A recent deal.i was involved in was a takeover of a Kenyan company by an Indian company. The contract was governed by English law, with English law firms acting for both sides and the entire transaction processed and cleared via the British banking system. So you've got these huge sums of money being reported moving through the UK that don't really impact the vast majority of people here, which skew our GDP upwards but then you also have lots of large corporates generating real UK retail.activity but reporting these sales in Ireland, Netherlands or Luxembourg which skews our figures downwards.

- UK GDP has remained relatively flat for years but to me that's partly because the eye-watering sums sloshing around in our financial services industries flatten out reporting
- if you look at some other metrics based around what I class as the real economy, there's a bit of a different story - unemployment at the end of 2014 was 5.7% and its currently at 4.1%.
That's despite a population increasing from estimated 64.6 million to 69.1 million in the same period.
Average wage has increased from £27.2K to £35.8K in the same period
Av house price from c. £188K to.c. £288K
FDI (foreign investment) increasing from just over £27 billion to just over £51 billion

That suggests that under the relatively flat headline GDP figures the UK has enjoyed significant and rapid economic growth over the last decade within the "real economy".

I do agree with the premise of "de-growth" however and the central issue we have to get a grip of is population growth. As the birth rate isn't the issue, this means net migration must be reduced to miniscule figures.

The primary reason is that I absolutely agree that the current consumption rate is unsustainable and the only inevitable end is with this relatively small and already densest populated island being concreted over completely with Heathrow having its 10th runway built and the M25 being increased to 20 lanes.

 

[Kompakted]

Balderdash; the Tory VIP lane was unlawful. Donors were handed contracts far in excess of what their reputation warranted, whilst existing suppliers were snubbed and unable to help out even when they reached out.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-12-06/debates/CC966116-A7FF-4470-81EF-203E0C520A0E/GovernmentPPEContracts

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xtent-of-tory-donor-access-to-matt-hanrooster

Conservative peer helped land £50m PPE contract for firm linked to fellow Tory

Former party chairman referred SG Recruitment to ‘VIP lane’ after introduction by peer who owned shares in parent company

www.theguardian.com

Timeline: Covid contracts and accusations of 'chumocracy'

The government has spent billions of pounds on thousands of deals with private firms.

www.bbc.co.uk

‘Secret’ PPE contract handed to Tory donor’s firm now worth £11m

Labour says government ‘must’ publish contract details still under wraps after 18 months

www.independent.co.uk

But again all of the stuff you've posted there is just complete garbage. I repeat: government ministers did not award any contracts. They could only refer contacts into this process. Angela Reyner was concerned that between 2020 and 2021 the government spent over £12 billion of tax payer money on PPE contracts without proper due diligence. It's like people have had a lobotomy and erased what was actually going on at the time. If you did "proper due diligence" on any offer to supply PPE the offer has gone and another country has bought it. They had to use the RAF to secure items due to the risk of military hijack. Meanwhile you had front line staff running out of kit and using bin liners and dropping like flies with "government with blood on its hands over lack ofPPE " headlines every day.

 

[thfcsteff]

But again all of the stuff you've posted there is just complete garbage. I repeat: government ministers did not award any contracts. They could only refer contacts into this process. Angela Reyner was concerned that between 2020 and 2021 the government spent over £12 billion of tax payer money on PPE contracts without proper due diligence. It's like people have had a lobotomy and erased what was actually going on at the time. If you did "proper due diligence" on any offer to supply PPE the offer has gone and another country has bought it. They had to use the RAF to secure items due to the risk of military hijack. Meanwhile you had front line staff running out of kit and using bin liners and dropping like flies with "government with blood on its hands over lack ofPPE " headlines every day.

...but things like this, which we are learning and do know, don't seem especially suspicious to you? Do you not have any inkling to question any of it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...vid-vip-lanes-biggest-winner-of-ppe-contracts

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Because if you're desperate for PPE and there are constant headlines that you (as ministers) are letting NHS staff die on the front line, you phone round your mates in business and industry and go "help me!"

Yeah, so why were these people paid, when in fact they did not come up with the goods? What about that? I'll answer that for you...they are as corrupt as fudge!

 

[SpurMeUp]

https://stateline.org/2023/06/20/ma...r-breaks-for-outdoor-workers-in-extreme-heat/

In fairness, the Biden admin is looking to federally mandate these things, but the fact it's still a question in 2024 should be alarming.

Some interesting reading...
https://weceurope.org/news-post/ilo...t-forecast-is-dotted-with-fragile-resilience/

This report breaks down national poverty very well IMO.
https://www.jrf.org.uk/uk-poverty-2024-the-essential-guide-to-understanding-poverty-in-the-uk

BTW, zero hour contracts are not the best way forward for treating workers with respect.

I am not sure what your reason for mentioning China was. I don't think anyone discussing this matter is suggesting a return to the Chinese model of economic and social operation.

What are we suggesting or considering as alternatives!? Easy to criticise. What is the alternative you’re suggesting?

Re China. We were talking about degrowth. Which would require centralised government imposing a new economy on people. As communism did.

The other salient point re China is communism and Marxism had an emphasis on negating the need for capitalist growth and focus on materialism. You might not understand that these themes continue via modern movements but they are linked to extremely similar ideals. That is no criticism. The logic behind them is sound. But if we can’t understand and learn from the implementation of these ideals within communist states, what hope have we got of doing a better job next time? Or people taking seriously these aims and theories?

 

[thfcsteff]

What are we suggesting or considering?

Personally, I would like a fairer corporate tax system with less loopholes, essential utilities to become national industries not 'for profit' ones (power, water, railways), a greater investment in state education...I have no issue with the private sector being involved in any areas of public utility and service (including the health care system) but there must be a commitment for selecting vendors on their quality first (cost effectiveness is only effective if the vendor is providing a quality service at a fair price).

I'd also like to see true dedication to the construction of affordable council housing (which in turn would be a big job provider).

There's more...but what you're probably asking is what is practically possible right now. And the truth is, while we have greater service to a small percentage than the majority, not much sadly.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Personally, I would like a fairer corporate tax system with less loopholes, essential utilities to become national industries not 'for profit' ones (power, water, railways), a greater investment in state education...I have no issue with the private sector being involved in any areas of public utility and service (including the health care system) but there must be a commitment for selecting vendors on their quality first (cost effectiveness is only effective if the vendor is providing a quality service at a fair price).

I'd also like to see true dedication to the construction of affordable council housing (which in turn would be a big job provider).

There's more...but what you're probably asking is what is practically possible right now. And the truth is, while we have greater service to a small percentage than the majority, not much sadly.

That’s not particularly profound. Most European nations follow such a setup. There isn’t anything there to decouple capitalism and engage degrowth. Just some light fettling of what we already have.

 

[Kompakted]

Yeah, so why were these people paid, when in fact they did not come up with the goods? What about that? I'll answer that for you...they are as corrupt as fudge!

Because lots of these people:
- either came up with the goods, but it was never good enough - either due to misinterpretation of technical specifications (which happened frequently in the case of factories that were repurposed rapidly to manufacture PPE when theyd never made it before) or because people were let down by suppliers
- came up with the goods but advice on PPE (which was constantly evolving) had changed making it redundant on delivery
- didn't come up with the goods, because they were let down by suppliers (shipments of PPE were literally being hijacked at airports and ports)
- and in a handful of cases, such as the Mones, there are legitimate allegations of wrong doing that need to be investigated.
In all these cases due to global competition suppliers required payment upfront and at vastly inflated prices to commit to supplying the UK government over someone else.

 

[Kompakted]

...but things like this, which we are learning and do know, don't seem especially suspicious to you? Do you not have any inkling to question any of it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...vid-vip-lanes-biggest-winner-of-ppe-contracts

I mean I've read that article twice now and all that looks like to me is people trying to help. I mean what's the story here? Someone from a large manufacturer gets in touch with a cabinet minister offering their services and then wins a contract after being referred to civil service procurement and the Guardian isn't suggesting the contract wasn't fulfilled satisfactorily. I again go back.to what do people like this Guardian journalist think SHOULD have happened here? That Michael Gove should have said to this guy "no thanks, we don't want any PPE thank you very much"

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

Not really. This idea that the PPE contracts were corruption is largely pie in the sky Ministers, MPs and peers were only able to refer contacts to the "VIP lane" as they were able to vouch personally for the contract being fulfilled. Although these referrals went into a fast track process ultimately the contracts were awarded or rejected by independent civil servants, not by party representatives. So this idea that government ministers were "handing out contracts to their mates" falls apart very quickly as soon as anyone actually looks into what was going on in any detail.

The ppe procurement lane excluded existing g low suppliers with supplies ready to roll out, and instead focussed on newly established suppliers with no relevant competencies, experience or financial resources. Their only defining characteristic was connections ministers of friends of ministers. And you’re trying to claim the process wasn’t corrupt? Sadly all independently verified evidence demonstrates that you are very very wrong Michelle

 

[Kompakted]

The ppe procurement lane excluded existing g low suppliers with supplies ready to roll out, and instead focussed on newly established suppliers with no relevant competencies, experience or financial resources. Their only defining characteristic was connections ministers of friends of ministers. And you’re trying to claim the process wasn’t corrupt? Sadly all independently verified evidence demonstrates that you are very very wrong Michelle

I think you need to pause, allow the political anger to fade and think about what you're reading and typing (as do most commentators on this topic). This whole thing of "existing suppliers with supplies waiting to go" being excluded from the procurement process. Why do you think they were excluded from the procurement process (maybe the clue is that they are, as described, "existing suppliers with supplies waiting to go"?)

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

I think you need to pause, allow the political anger to fade and think about what you're reading and typing (as do most commentators on this topic). This whole thing of "existing suppliers with supplies waiting to go" being excluded from the procurement process. Why do you think they were excluded from the procurement process (maybe the clue is that they are, as described, "existing suppliers with supplies waiting to go"?)

Not sure I understand what you are inferring that the supplies would be out of date? Well that is what happened with vip procurement lane supplies, either out of date or not fit for purpose.

You. We’d to stop trying to defend the indefensible

‘VIP lane’ for PPE contracts unlawful, High Court rules

Mrs Justice O'Farrell says the relevant companies' offers 'justified priority treatment on [their] merits'.

www.lawgazette.co.uk

https://www.transparency.org.uk/report-landmark-investigation-finds-corruption-red-flags-153-billion-uk-covid-contracts

 

[Kompakted]

Not sure I understand what you are inferring that the supplies would be out of date? Well that is what happened with vip procurement lane supplies, either out of date or not fit for purpose.

You. We’d to stop trying to defend the indefensible

‘VIP lane’ for PPE contracts unlawful, High Court rules

Mrs Justice O'Farrell says the relevant companies' offers 'justified priority treatment on [their] merits'.

www.lawgazette.co.uk

https://www.transparency.org.uk/report-landmark-investigation-finds-corruption-red-flags-153-billion-uk-covid-contracts

The VIP lane excluded existing suppliers as existing suppliers didn't need to go through a procurement process - if they were willing to keep supplying they just kept on supplying. The VIP lane was set up as a lot of existing suppliers were unable or unwilling to continue supplying at all or at the volume required, and given the lack of time to put new suppliers through proper tender processes, the safest bet was suppliers owned by those people in government or Westminster could vouch for as being reliable.

You're saying I'm defending the indefensible but as I keep going back to, what is it that all of you people wanted the government to do, just stick to the normal, legally and morally water-tight tender and procurement process. fully vet every proposed supplier of PPE to a rigorous standard and enter into strong negotiations on price, calling the bluff one "take it leave it, the French will have it if you won't" ultimatums?

 

[Baleforce]

The VIP lane was setup so they could siphon a load of money into the company owned by the woman Boris just happened to be knobbing at the time.

Oh, and some bloke Matt Hanrooster met in the pub.

It was corrupt from the off.

 

[thfcsteff]

That’s not particularly profound. Most European nations follow such a setup. There isn’t anything there to decouple capitalism and engage degrowth. Just some light fettling of what we already have.

You didn't say anything about 'profound' and I didn't suggest it was. You asked a question, I answered it. The fact my answer does not satisfy your requirements of it is inconsequential to me.

You want massive changes suggested when none will be forthcoming; I'll settle for a reframe on how our entire fudging society both thinks and acts. If we could actually get fudging close to ANY of the suggestions put forth, we'd be a lot closer to 'degrowth' than we currently are.

'Light fettling of what we already have' eh? In which case, why are we where we are?

 

[thfcsteff]

I mean I've read that article twice now and all that looks like to me is people trying to help. I mean what's the story here? Someone from a large manufacturer gets in touch with a cabinet minister offering their services and then wins a contract after being referred to civil service procurement and the Guardian isn't suggesting the contract wasn't fulfilled satisfactorily. I again go back.to what do people like this Guardian journalist think SHOULD have happened here? That Michael Gove should have said to this guy "no thanks, we don't want any PPE thank you very much"

I think, respectfully, we have reached the conclusion of our discussion, simply because we are in complete disagreement.