Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
The Death of Stalin is prophecy not history
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Putin & Russia
- Thread starter Rorschach
- Start date
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Absolutely, but Russia are only reacting to this kind of thing which predates Brexit by more than a decade! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa
Or are you suggesting Russia started it?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Russia tried to join NATO a few times between 1991-4, when it was experimenting with democracy for a while. Sliding doors moment.
Not nearly enough. Ukraine should have been fast tracked into NATO at the very earliest opportunity. Germany probably would still have fought tooth and claw to appease their gas-supplying overlords but at least there would have been a basis for defending them.
Scotland is in the UK, it's not really a good analogy. Try Norway or France. The answer is nothing - they're independent nations that can do whatever the fudge they choose.
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Ukraine was part of the russian empire, but then became semi-independent in the 1990s. Both nations were aligned with similar cultures, sharing a physical land border. The people spoke the same language with some dialect differences in certain regions. And many families were split across the nations and intertwined. The two nations shared energy resources as well.
Nothing at all like Scotland and England
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Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
More like England and America. Maybe we should overturn the Boston Tea Party, give them the king back and force them to have decent beerUkraine was part of the russian empire, but then became semi-independent in the 1990s. Both nations were aligned with similar cultures, sharing a physical land borders. The people spoke the same language with some dialect differences in certain regions. And many families were split across the nations and intertwined. The two nations shared energy resources as well.
Nothing at all like Scotland and England
Lost Mango
Neil Ruddock
Ukraine was part of the russian empire, but then became semi-independent in the 1990s. Both nations were aligned with similar cultures, sharing a physical land border. The people spoke the same language with some dialect differences in certain regions. And many families were split across the nations and intertwined. The two nations shared energy resources as well.
Nothing at all like Scotland and England
Ukraine (or Kyiv to be more precise) was the founding city of what became the Russian empire so doesn't that give them primacy over any territorial claim?
Russian and Ukrainian aren't the same language with 'dialect differences'. There are dialect differences within Russian and within Ukrainian but these are minor in comparison to the significant differences between the two different languages.
They are not mutually intelligible although they come from the same Slavic root, less understandable apparently than say Spanish and Portuguese.
The Cyrillic alphabet, whilst similar, also has significant differences (such as an extra 4 or 5 letters in Russian) and what each letter means.
What does 'semi-independent' mean? They proclaimed full independence in 1991 but maintained some established partnerships.
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
I don’t know does it? What does that have to do with the price of Borscht?
Lots of Eastern Ukrainians only speak Russian - but I am sure you know that!
A strong Glaswegian accent is possibly more alienating to an English southerner than any Russian is to any Ukrainian!! Then throw in Scottish Gaelic, and the various dialect within both Scotland and England, and is it that different? Splitting hairs. The broad point is the nations share culture and language. Put it this way: are there Ukrainians who do not understand Russian?
Ukraine was highly reliant on Russia for its energy. Politically and practically it was highly connected to Russia initially. As most people with any insight are aware Ukraine had a series of puppet leaders who were in Moscows pocket.
Lost Mango
Neil Ruddock
In terms of vocabulary, the Ukrainian language is the closest to Belarusian (16% of difference), and the Russian language to Bulgarian (27% of difference). After Belarusian, Ukrainian is also closer to Slovak, Polish, and Czech than to Russian – 38% of Ukrainian vocabulary is different from Russian which is a similar level of similarity/difference as between English and German (40%), for example.
More Ukrainians understand Russian than Russians understand Ukrainian, basically because, as you say, of the political influence of Russia not because of a shared sense of community.
The basic point is that whilst they share cultural and political heritage they aren't the same by any means (and there are examples of a lot closer cultural independent nations) and to dismiss these differences and a significant proportion of 21st Century Ukrainians desire not to be a client state of Russia as purely down to US meddling is vey wrong (although that isn't to say the US and the EU and NATO haven't meddled and haven't been ham-fisted about it).
I worked in Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan in the '00s and the distaste for Russia at a community level was strong in all 3 countries back then, especially in Georgia and Ukraine. It is the 'puppet' elites in those countries which maintained links to what are seen as former colonisers rather than partners. Significant parts of these populations want to get away from Russia, especially Putin and his Empire building Greater Russia complex.
(The relevance to the price of Borscht was questioning, as with all these things, what part of history remains relevant to the argument - how far back do you allow to go? Russia was part of the Kyvian Kingdom before Ukraine was part of the Russian empire)
More Ukrainians understand Russian than Russians understand Ukrainian, basically because, as you say, of the political influence of Russia not because of a shared sense of community.
The basic point is that whilst they share cultural and political heritage they aren't the same by any means (and there are examples of a lot closer cultural independent nations) and to dismiss these differences and a significant proportion of 21st Century Ukrainians desire not to be a client state of Russia as purely down to US meddling is vey wrong (although that isn't to say the US and the EU and NATO haven't meddled and haven't been ham-fisted about it).
I worked in Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan in the '00s and the distaste for Russia at a community level was strong in all 3 countries back then, especially in Georgia and Ukraine. It is the 'puppet' elites in those countries which maintained links to what are seen as former colonisers rather than partners. Significant parts of these populations want to get away from Russia, especially Putin and his Empire building Greater Russia complex.
(The relevance to the price of Borscht was questioning, as with all these things, what part of history remains relevant to the argument - how far back do you allow to go? Russia was part of the Kyvian Kingdom before Ukraine was part of the Russian empire)
Scotland is part of the UK.Ukraine was part of the russian empire, but then became semi-independent in the 1990s. Both nations were aligned with similar cultures, sharing a physical land border. The people spoke the same language with some dialect differences in certain regions. And many families were split across the nations and intertwined. The two nations shared energy resources as well.
Nothing at all like Scotland and England
Ukraine is not part of the USSR.
It's no more complex than that.
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Okay. Wikipedia is amazing. Not sure what the point is.
And there are Ukrainians who only speak Russian, and not Ukrainian. As I’m sure you’re aware having worked there. (Why would you leave out such a point? As though you’re trying not to give a balanced perspective). Scottish Gaelic is vastly different to English. There many many more languages and cultures than nations. What about Cornish?
Agreed. Straw man. Not something I’ve suggested.
This is just sweeping generalisation. It’s like saying the anti-EU sentiment in the UK is strong. Yes, it is. But there is huge pro-EU sentiment as well. Pre-war there were a lot of pro-Russian Ukrainians especially in the east. Why would you present such a warped version of reality? Like suggesting the UK is all fervently anti European. Misguided and misleading version of history. This reality has changed now. I don’t think any Ukrainians remain pro Russia. But 5-10 years ago it was more like 50-50 or 60-40 depending on how far east or west you are. It is this kind of rewriting of history that gives us such a biased perspective in the west.
especially in Georgia and Ukraine. It is the 'puppet' elites in those countries which maintained links to what are seen as former colonisers rather than partners. Significant parts of these populations want to get away from Russia, especially Putin and his Empire building Greater Russia complex.
History should inform and provide a useful context. Hasn’t this same fact been used by Russia to stake a claim on Ukraine? I think it’s a red herring to understanding modern day history, whether misconstrued by pro or anti Russians.
Re. links with Russia etc the challenge in Ukraine is not its external affiliations really. It is the concentration of elites who run the country..within Ukraine. Much like Russia. It’s a product of transitioning from communism. Ukraine has just as many oligarchs, possibly more corruption and vested interests baked into the fabric of the nation. It’s almost impossible to root out these issues overnight.
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Bullet
Chris Jones
A-ha, it's the bloody Swedes causing trouble again.
They pretend they are all smiles, sunshine and Abba, but those b*st*rds started this off a thousand years ago. Turncoats!
Names of Rus', Russia and Ruthenia - Wikipedia
Lost Mango
Neil Ruddock
It was never 50-50, never 60-40.
90%+ voted for Independence in 1991. They could have stayed with Russia. They voted not to.
At no point has it been even close.
only some of Crimea voted a majority to stay with Russia. Everywhere else had a significant majority wanting meaningful independence from Yeltsin and Gorbachov and their idea of an economic union of sovereign states. Not semi-independence, not an economic union such as the EU, independence. 33 years ago.
So who is rewriting history or dismissing alternative opinions as sweeping generalisations?
Yes some Ukrainians speak only Russian but hey the language of business for 100 years so to be expected. Would imagine there is a sizeable demographic slant with age on that anywhere outside a couple of oblasts in the far east.
Yes, wiki is useful to find quick supporting evidence. Shows that Ukrainian is as different to Russian as English is to German so really not at all similar as you tried to sell.
Russian mendacity since '91 has been equal to if not greater than western intervention.
Agree and that was my point on the history. You were using the Russian Empire to say Russia had a historical right to have sphere of influence over Ukraine, I was asking at what point history loses its relevance.
Also agree on the endemic corruption. But the pro EUmaiden protests were always more popularly supported than pro-Russian, as they are in Georgia demonstrating and supporting what polls, even before 2014 showed of political direction.
90%+ voted for Independence in 1991. They could have stayed with Russia. They voted not to.
At no point has it been even close.
only some of Crimea voted a majority to stay with Russia. Everywhere else had a significant majority wanting meaningful independence from Yeltsin and Gorbachov and their idea of an economic union of sovereign states. Not semi-independence, not an economic union such as the EU, independence. 33 years ago.
So who is rewriting history or dismissing alternative opinions as sweeping generalisations?
Yes some Ukrainians speak only Russian but hey the language of business for 100 years so to be expected. Would imagine there is a sizeable demographic slant with age on that anywhere outside a couple of oblasts in the far east.
Yes, wiki is useful to find quick supporting evidence. Shows that Ukrainian is as different to Russian as English is to German so really not at all similar as you tried to sell.
Russian mendacity since '91 has been equal to if not greater than western intervention.
Agree and that was my point on the history. You were using the Russian Empire to say Russia had a historical right to have sphere of influence over Ukraine, I was asking at what point history loses its relevance.
Also agree on the endemic corruption. But the pro EUmaiden protests were always more popularly supported than pro-Russian, as they are in Georgia demonstrating and supporting what polls, even before 2014 showed of political direction.
johnola
Mitchell Thomas
interesting you say about beers. Our macro beers are terrible too but the US has many world class brewers in all the styles of beer out there.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
No i have heard theyve come on a lot. Ive not been over in 12 or 13 years, but it was a car crash when i was last there. I tried ordering local craft ones everywhere i went and a lot were just completely undrinkable. Personal taste, but they also skew too hop heavy for me. Im sure there will be an Adnams Broadside or Southwold over there for me somewhere though
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
If you don’t @SpurMeUp how I am supposed to see you be replied?
To not acknowledge this is a bastardisation of history.
It depends on geography and time. In the east of Ukraine people were extremely pro Russia. To deny this just shows you up as biased I am afraid.
There have also been elections where the whole nation has voted for leaders who are Russian backed, aligned or sympathetic. You present it as black and white when it just wasn’t. That was the point. And in certain areas of the country the pro Russian sentiment was more than half.
To not acknowledge this is a bastardisation of history.
You’ve lost your zhit on the language thing idk why. I made an analogy with Scotland and England. Saying both share a language and culture. That doesn’t mean there aren’t differences and distinctions. At last you have finally acknowledged that there are some Ukrainians who only speak Russian. But I don’t think the reverse is true - Ukrainians who only speak Ukrainian and not Russian. This will change in the future. But to argue against these plain facts is just churlish.
No I wasn’t. Really show a lack of comprehension of the points I’ve made.
Did you read the guardian article from 2004 on how the US manipulated democracy in Ukraine? It’s above have a look and give me your take. There is more than one perspective, and nuances to consider that are not made overtly public.
ricky2tricky4city
Les Medley
Tomorrow I think....... depends what time Donald gets back from his inauguration.
Kandi1977
Vic Buckingham
Ukraine and Russian are quite different languages. The reason they spoke Russian in Ukraine, was that it was forced upon them. A Moscow Russian won't understand Ukraine, other than some words here and there.Ukraine was part of the russian empire, but then became semi-independent in the 1990s. Both nations were aligned with similar cultures, sharing a physical land border. The people spoke the same language with some dialect differences in certain regions. And many families were split across the nations and intertwined. The two nations shared energy resources as well.
Nothing at all like Scotland and England
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Putin ally projected to easily secure seventh term in election that US and EU have said could not be free or fair