The Best Album Of All Time - Nirvana v Rage Against the Machine

[thfcsteff]

Not sure what you mean by that first sentence. And ridiculous we're criticising RATM's production when the competition is Nevermind. Boy-band production on a rock record that Nirvana themselves tried to distance themselves from.

If you're an audiophile, perhaps so. But I am not. I am far from an audiophile. I would probably be considered crass by such standards, and having spent over 30 years in the world of music, doubtless there are portions of my hearing that have seen better days.

But what I can say is that for me, it's about how the music sounds EMOTIONALLY. I am not bothered whether audiophiles rate things as sounding amazing, some of the greatest stuff I've ever heard was technically ****ty but had powerful connections with me…

What I will absolutely 100% refute, is the criticism of Nevermind as 'boy-band' production. Not true. Was it more 'mainstream' in production values that RATM? Perhaps. But 'boy band'? That's ridiculous :lol:…the man brought in to mix it, Andy Wallace, mixed Reign In Blood, another of my top 20 albums of all time and one of the most visceral, savage musical experiences in modern music; A/B 'Territorial ****ings' and 'Angel of Death' and you'll hear that they come from the same town if not the same house.

Enjoying the discussion BTW, keep it coming ;-)

 

[milo]

Indeed, this is absolutely true (their manager at that time was a friend) but I think to my ear, I wish that the source equipment had packed more punch and that the source production had exacerbated the 'fullness' of the bass a bit more OR sharpened up the attack on the guitars so as they were more 'punk' sounding. When I hear those guitars, i always know how I want them to sound…and given the style of production (thinner and more in keeping with 'alternative' than classic rock) I'd want those things to attack me like the guitars on a classic Black Flag record.


To give you reasons why I think Nevermind is a classic…

1) It's weight and balance, from start to finish, is perfect. Starts big and then has excellent dynamics. You are engaged and allowed to breath all at once.

2) The writing. It's superb. The finest blend of Beatles/Killing Joke/Pixies, etc you could imagine.

3) The production is absolutely perfect. Loud enough to matter yet balanced enough not to have any single element obliterating another…Novoselic's bass is given room to show it's muscular underpinning, Grohl's drums are great and then there's The Magic Man…onto…I can tell you that Cobain never was comfortable with the production, but equally, I can tell you that my feeling is he was hamstrung by his own 'indie-cred' insecurities and anxieties.

4) That voice. Unique. Incredible, unforgettable, engaging…

5) It is an album that IF started from track 1 demands you play it through.

Steff

I agree with all your points here.

And I say again, imagine a world without Nevermind...it is a lot harder to get your head around than a world without RATM.

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree with all your points here.

And I say again, imagine a world without Nevermind...it is a lot harder to get your head around than a world without RATM.

The impact Nirvana had on my life is immense.

 

[milo]

The impact Nirvana had on my life is immense.

I'm sure that we will discuss the impact of Nevermind and bands that benefited from it a few times in these polls (I have some views on metal bands that sold a lot of records off Nirvana's coattails but I will save it for when those albums come up for discussion).

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm sure that we will discuss the impact of Nevermind and bands that benefited from it a few times in these polls (I have some views on metal bands that sold a lot of records off Nirvana's coattails but I will save it for when those albums come up for discussion).

Cannot wait…

…one band that influenced so many…Killing Joke...

 

[milo]

Cannot wait…

…one band that influenced so many…Killing Joke...

Cobain was great for talking about his influences. I love bands that talk about acts that inspired them and turn you on to lesser known acts.

 

[thfcsteff]

Cobain was great for talking about his influences. I love bands that talk about acts that inspired them and turn you on to lesser known acts.

they really did their best to promote their favorite underground bands (Vasalines, for example)…yeah, when 'come as you are' was revealed to have been a direct son of 'eighties' they didn't deny and paid KJ some dough i believe...

 

[milo]

they really did their best to promote their favorite underground bands (Vasalines, for example)…yeah, when 'come as you are' was revealed to have been a direct son of 'eighties' they didn't deny and paid KJ some dough i believe...

Yeah. The Melvins would be another influence that they championed. They did a lot to help popularise their contemporaries too. As I was alluding to earlier, I think a lot of labels got their metal bands to ditch their leather and dungeons and dragons and dressed them in plaid.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yeah. The Melvins would be another influence that they championed. They did a lot to help popularise their contemporaries too. As I was alluding to earlier, I think a lot of labels got their metal bands to ditch their leather and dungeons and dragons and dressed them in plaid.

I love Melvins! Buzz is a fine fine man. Him and Dale have a superb marriage (creative sense)…and agreed with the latter thought. You could see them lining up. One that always provokes debate are Stone Temple Pilots, whose debut I really like and don't think was trying to 'grunge rock' but who many do think was. But yes, there are some royal examples of what you're saying...

 

[Baleforce]

i love core, purple too come to think of it, i'd classify them as hard rock rather than grunge myself, not that that really matters

weiland is a hell of a front man, the first velvet revolver album is great as well

 

[thfcsteff]

i love core, purple too come to think of it, i'd classify them as hard rock rather than grunge myself, not that that really matters

weiland is a hell of a front man, the first velvet revolver album is great as well

Personally felt really sorry for him. Naive young and enthusiastic guy who just got caned with that debut by the media…his downfall was touring with the Butthole Surfers, a band I adore but not one who the innocent should find heroes in, as it takes a strong mind and constitution to come through the other side…the Butthole are some of the smartest, sharpest, most creative and utterly subversive musicians I've known...

 

[milo]

I love the Butthole Surfers.

On Nirvana, I was completely surprised by how big Nevermind was at the time. Despite seeing them before I had no inkling of what was to come and considered them very much second tier to Pixies, Sonic Youth, Dinosaur Jr and Mudhoney.

 

[thfcsteff]

I love the Butthole Surfers.

On Nirvana, I was completely surprised by how big Nevermind was at the time. Despite seeing them before I had no inkling of what was to come and considered them very much second tier to Pixies, Sonic Youth, Dinosaur Jr and Mudhoney.

I liked 'Bleach' a lot but didn't see it as being a forbearer…when I heard Nevermind, I remember thinking that this band had made something very very special, something I did not know they had in them…it blew me away. The success? It was the last time I remember the public truly getting a great album en masse...

 

[milo]

I liked 'Bleach' a lot but didn't see it as being a forbearer…when I heard Nevermind, I remember thinking that this band had made something very very special, something I did not know they had in them…it blew me away. The success? It was the last time I remember the public truly getting a great album en masse...

I agree. It was like everyone else was playing catch up like the band.

I think that the only people who might have known that Nirvana had it in them was Sonic Youth who convinced them to sign for Geffen.

 

[Bullet]

Two of my favourites of all time, I'd have to go for Nevermind but it hurts to not go for RATM.

I'm pleasantly surprised you didn't plump for Bleach (trying to play the cool card) and also that people here aren't banging on about it as I think Nevermind is a better album.

Slightly off topic but I've read loads about Cobain and he felt that Nevermind was too succesful and made loads of jocks and meat heads like Nirvana (I can see what he means) so In Utero was supposed to be a backlash against all the hangers on and *******s that like Nevermind, trying to shake them off with harder production, harder sounds, a return to Bleach... I was surprised to read that because for me at the time In Utero felt like a poor follow up, a sellout at the time compared to Bleach and Nevermind.

You couldn't turn on the TV without seeing the Heart Shaped Box video and Pennyroyal Tea and stuff never really did it for me... Nevermind was just an awesome wave after wave of brilliant songs

"Smells Like Teen Spirit" – 5:01
"In Bloom" – 4:14
"Come as You Are" – 3:39
"Breed" – 3:03
"Lithium" – 4:17
"Polly" – 2:57
"Territorial ****ings" – 2:22
"Drain You" – 3:43
"Lounge Act" – 2:36
"Stay Away" – 3:32
"On a Plain" – 3:16
"Something in the Way" – 3:51

I'd say only Lounge Act is a bit "whatever"

RATM is awesome too but for me it tails off towards the end

1. "Bombtrack" 4:04
2. "Killing in the Name" 5:14
3. "Take the Power Back" 5:37
4. "Settle for Nothing" 4:48
5. "Bullet in the Head" 5:09
6. "Know Your Enemy" (feat. Maynard James Keenan) 4:55
7. "Wake Up" 6:04
8. "Fistful of Steel" 5:31
9. "Township Rebellion" 5:24
10. "Freedom" 6:06

It was bizarre to have that rap/rock crossover at the time and actually appreciate/like someone rapping out lyrics rather than singing, takes me back.

 

[thfcsteff]

Two of my favourites of all time, I'd have to go for Nevermind but it hurts to not go for RATM.

I'm pleasantly surprised you didn't plump for Bleach (trying to play the cool card) and also that people here aren't banging on about it as I think Nevermind is a better album.

Slightly off topic but I've read loads about Cobain and he felt that Nevermind was too succesful and made loads of jocks and meat heads like Nirvana (I can see what he means) so In Utero was supposed to be a backlash against all the hangers on and *******s that like Nevermind, trying to shake them off with harder production, harder sounds, a return to Bleach... I was surprised to read that because for me at the time In Utero felt like a poor follow up, a sellout at the time compared to Bleach and Nevermind.

You couldn't turn on the TV without seeing the Heart Shaped Box video and Pennyroyal Tea and stuff never really did it for me... Nevermind was just an awesome wave after wave of brilliant songs

"Smells Like Teen Spirit" – 5:01
"In Bloom" – 4:14
"Come as You Are" – 3:39
"Breed" – 3:03
"Lithium" – 4:17
"Polly" – 2:57
"Territorial ****ings" – 2:22
"Drain You" – 3:43
"Lounge Act" – 2:36
"Stay Away" – 3:32
"On a Plain" – 3:16
"Something in the Way" – 3:51

I'd say only Lounge Act is a bit "whatever"

RATM is awesome too but for me it tails off towards the end

1. "Bombtrack" 4:04
2. "Killing in the Name" 5:14
3. "Take the Power Back" 5:37
4. "Settle for Nothing" 4:48
5. "Bullet in the Head" 5:09
6. "Know Your Enemy" (feat. Maynard James Keenan) 4:55
7. "Wake Up" 6:04
8. "Fistful of Steel" 5:31
9. "Township Rebellion" 5:24
10. "Freedom" 6:06

It was bizarre to have that rap/rock crossover at the time and actually appreciate/like someone rapping out lyrics rather than singing, takes me back.

Well-said…yes, he always wanted to work with Albini as Albini was the GHod of anti-corporate and anti-producers. Label were forced to accommodate him.

 

[Bullet]

Milo I was going to suggest an album by another of my favourites e.g. Pixies, Pavement, Julian Cope but I can't pick an album... maybe that is why they are great, I just can't pick a best album from their huge back catalogues.

 

[thfcsteff]

Milo I was going to suggest an album by another of my favourites e.g. Pixies, Pavement, Julian Cope but I can't pick an album... maybe that is why they are great, I just can't pick a best album from their huge back catalogues.

Bossonova from Pixies was pretty great...

 

[Stufat]

Just to make you all feel really old, this guy is the nevermind baby

Also, while I agree nevermind is a truly groundbreaking album, it also led me to turning my back on some pretty great bands.
When grunge exploded I followed head first, it would have been around the same time I stopped buying music from bands like the wildhearts and the almighty.

 

[milo]

Milo I was going to suggest an album by another of my favourites e.g. Pixies, Pavement, Julian Cope but I can't pick an album... maybe that is why they are great, I just can't pick a best album from their huge back catalogues.

Doolittle and Slanted & Enchanted are coming up in the not too distant future, no one nominated a Julian Cope album (I love Kilimanjaro).

The full list of albums fighting it out to be crowned the best can be found here

http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showth...vourite-album-of-all-time?p=555527#post555527