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The Defensive Midfielder

Pirate55 said:
If it would be possible, I would like to see Alli super-imposed on Dier ( ideally in different colours) and Mason super-imposed on Bentaleb ( again, ideally in different colours).

I would expect Alli to be more vertically integrated with Dier ( i.e. Alli in more advanced general positions than Dier), whereas I expect Mason and Bentaleb to be more horizontally integrated ( i.e. more side by side).

I think that would be a very illuminating excercise if you can pull it off. It would also help us all to see if Poch's tactics have changed this year and moved away from the double pivot.
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I'm not sure if that is readily available but I will see if I can find anything. The problem would be the heat element, in that the lighter areas are where they spend more time are the same colour on the ones that I have looked at. I can definitely do combined heatmaps in the same colour.

I will say which player is which from this set and then do some new combined ones over the weekend.
 
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harr1984 said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I never see Dier really create, and seldom goes that far forward? He always seems to be the one protecting, picking the ball up from deep positions and least likely to make forward runs from what I've seen....
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Out of interest, which player do you think Dier is out of players 1, 2 and 3 from the heatmaps?
 
If anyone else wants to have a stab at who is who, you have until I get home and have a glass of wine in my hand. ETA 40ish minutes.
 
milo said:
Out of interest, which player do you think Dier is out of players 1, 2 and 3 from the heatmaps?
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Hmm, not sure...Player 1? On a heat map I'm sure he's in the oppositions box for all set pieces, so not sure would tell the whole story. I'm purely saying based on what I've seen, I haven't seen him make many forward runs that far forward with or without the ball and don't see him create anything in the way those he is apparently rotating the holding position with do(not saying this as a negative). If there are stats telling me otherwise then fair enough....
 
milo said:
Updated with a couple of games more for each player. Touches to follow.

Player 1

Player_1_heatmap_1.png


Player_1_heatmap_2.png


Player_1_heapmap_3.png


Player_1_heatmap_4.png


Player_1_heatmap_5.png


Player 2

Player_2_heatmap_1.png


Player_2_heatmap_2.png


Player_2_heatmap_3.png


Player_2_heatmap_4.png


Player_2_heatmap_5.png

Player 3

Player_3_heatmap_1.png


Player_3_heatmap_2.png


Player_3_heatmap_3.png


Player_3_heatmap_4.png


Player_3_heatmap_5.png
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So the answers are....

Player 1 is Nabil Bentaleb
Player 2 is Eric Dier
Player 3 is Ryan Mason

Bentaleb -
2014/15
City (home), Southampton (away), Liverpool (away), Saudi Sportswashing Machine (away) and Hull (home)

Dier -
2015/16
Villa (home), Swansea (away), Anderlecht (away), Man U (away) and Palace (home)

Mason -
2015/16 - Leicester - (away)
2014/15 - Hull (home), Man U (away), Everton (away) and Burnley (away).
 
harr1984 said:
Hmm, not sure...Player 1? On a heat map I'm sure he's in the oppositions box for all set pieces, so not sure would tell the whole story. I'm purely saying based on what I've seen, I haven't seen him make many forward runs that far forward with or without the ball and don't see him create anything in the way those he is apparently rotating the holding position with do(not saying this as a negative). If there are stats telling me otherwise then fair enough....
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Heat maps are based on the amount of time that a player spends in a position, so free kicks and corners are not going to make a big impact because the players are not in the box for that long when they are taken.
 
milo said:
Heat maps are based on the amount of time that a player spends in a position, so free kicks and corners are not going to make a big impact because the players are not in the box for that long when they are taken.
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Understood,I've never really paid much attention to this heat map analysis...
 
milo said:
So the answers are....

Player 1 is Nabil Bentaleb
Player 2 is Eric Dier
Player 3 is Ryan Mason

Bentaleb -
2014/15
City (home), Southampton (away), Liverpool (away), Saudi Sportswashing Machine (away) and Hull (home)

Dier -
2015/16
Villa (home), Swansea (away), Anderlecht (away), Man U (away) and Palace (home)

Mason -
2015/16 - Leicester - (away)
2014/15 - Hull (home), Man U (away), Everton (away) and Burnley (away).
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Wow. I am gobsmacked by those results. Something for me though still doesn't add up. For example, player 2 is never shown in the opponents area. I disagree with you about the time taken for dead balls. How many corners and free kicks do we get in a game where Dier will go up into the penalty area? Maybe a combined 10. Lets say that he is in the area for 30 seconds (I think it would be more) waiting for the delivery. That adds up to a total of 5 minutes (or 5.5% of the time) in a very small part of the pitch - surely that would register quite a bit on a heat map, but with Dier's it registers nothing at all.

Similarly, Mason makes a lot of forward probing runs taking him into the penalty area on occasions (his winner against was a case in point) but the selected heat maps don't seem to show this aspect of his game at all.

I can't seem to fathom that out. That is why I originally asked to see ALL the heat maps rather than a (potentially) selective few.

It would be good if you or Billy could provide the heat maps and touches of the CM duos as discussed. I appreciate it may be difficult but you guys seem to be technical wizards!!
 
I'm certainly no technical wizard Pirate - especially when I have to work solely off a phone/tablet! Had a quick look last night and overlaying two players heat maps/touches doesn't work as there's nothing to separate the info (both players show up the same colour)

Looking at Dier&Mason earlier in the season it looked as though one took the left side of the pitch, the other the right - both as attacking/defensive as the other (ie how i think Bentaleb&Mason played last season) however with Alli&Dier, both played across the pitch (left to right) with Alli slightly more advanced, interestingly though it looked as though both players took up the deeper defensive positions - the only real difference was Alli got in the box more.

This was only a brief look at a couple of games so probably not worth reading too much in to either way
 
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@Pirate55 you can see very faint shading around the box for each player in most games. I would guess that some of that is set pieces. It would be interesting to do a comparison with a centre back who you would also expect to see come up for set pieces but who would not get there much during normal passages of play.
 
@Pirate55 You can see Mason's runs forward on heatmap but as these are occasional it is also faint.

The two at the base of midfield, regardless who is there, spend most of their time within an area level with the centre circle which is why it is "hottest" there. Occasional forays forward can be seen but they are not in those positions long enough for them to be as prominent.
 
@Pirate55 You can see Mason's runs forward on heatmap but as these are occasional it is also faint.

The two at the base of midfield, regardless who is there, spend most of their time within an area level with the centre circle which is why it is "hottest" there. Occasional forays forward can be seen but they are not in those positions long enough for them to be as prominent.
 
milo said:
@Pirate55 you can see very faint shading around the box for each player in most games. I would guess that some of that is set pieces. It would be interesting to do a comparison with a centre back who you would also expect to see come up for set pieces but who would not get there much during normal passages of play.
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I don't know, but are they not restricted to ball in play time? Therefore a corner might only be 5 seconds in the box, rather than 30+ with all the faffing?
 
SteveAWOL said:
Hopefully Bissouma is able to hold the fort in Bentancur’s absence and perhaps young Archie Gray be called upon if needed…


View attachment 18071
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i think there are other charts that show that we are pretty good at interceptions, but this one shows that we don't "duel" much. Its obvious in games as we are are often fast but less aggressive and less hungry in 50-50 situations, made worse when we have maddison instead of kulu in the AM position
 
metalgear said:
i think there are other charts that show that we are pretty good at interceptions, but this one shows that we don't "duel" much. Its obvious in games as we are are often fast but less aggressive and less hungry in 50-50 situations, made worse when we have maddison instead of kulu in the AM position
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We have less duels because we have the most possesion
 
I have been saying all season that the number one player we are missing is a proper DM, we have tried to slot in several players into that posistion but NONE of them are up to what we need. Bentacur is the only one who has looked anything like but he is not the answer. I know some fans will disagree but for me it should be a priorty and should be fixed before any other posistion.
 
Only person I've every seen play in a midfield by himself and cope was Wanyama when we played City at home at WFH and battered them.

Doesn't matter who we buy or play there, they way we set up and press will leave them exposed.
 
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