UKIP/Tory Pact

[Steed Train]

Thing is , everyone moans about European legislation, however we're the only EU state that take it seriously. Visit most countries on the continent and they see it almost as guidance as opposed to legislation. For example we have over a hundred people tasked with implementing and policing EU health and safety legislation.... France has one person

 

[scaramanga]

Thing is , everyone moans about European legislation, however we're the only EU state that take it seriously. Visit most countries on the continent and they see it almost as guidance as opposed to legislation. For example we have over a hundred people tasked with implementing and policing EU health and safety legislation.... France has one person

This is a major issue for those of us that want to compete with European businesses.

In my line of work I spend a lot of time dealing with environmental legislation that is only adhered to in the UK, the Czech Republic and sometimes in Germany. We have French, Spanish and Italian competitors all able to undercut our prices because they don't need to spend 5% of turnover on the same legislation that we do.

 

[Crawley]

Stunning results in the three by-elections.

UKIP 2nd in two strong Northern labour seats, Libs nowhere. Also 3rd in Croydon North.

Time to take them more seriously.

 

[jts1882]

This is a major issue for those of us that want to compete with European businesses.

In my line of work I spend a lot of time dealing with environmental legislation that is only adhered to in the UK, the Czech Republic and sometimes in Germany. We have French, Spanish and Italian competitors all able to undercut our prices because they don't need to spend 5% of turnover on the same legislation that we do.

This is where the EU has gone badly wrong. The free market supposedly existing over the EU should help you. Unfortunately, more effort was expended on the political project and deepening the union than enforcing the rules that already existed. As a result they rushed into the Euro even when it was clear the eurozone economies weren't ready and they decided to ignore the rules (a pattern here).

I have no problem with the idea of a federal Europe in principle. However, it can only exist if people want it - they clearly don't (even the French and Dutch rejected the EU constitution) - and it has to be done slowly. Ironically the ideological rush towards a deeper union using the Euro to force the issue has alienated people to the idea even in the more europhilic nations. Even now some of the europhiles blame the failure of the Euro on not enough union (a bit like the US Republicans and trickle down).

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Been a UKIP member for a few years now. Voted tory last time because i got taken in by cameron just like i did by blair(will i ever learn) never again. I understand evryone has opinons and this has been done to death on here before so i wont get involved in the debate.

Just so happy that at last we are not considered a racist party. I vote to pull away from europe because i want us to have control over our fishing stocks, over our borders. If we wish to implement green laws then we can decide when it is right for us as a country. I have never liked big government because as our very own Gordinho says "never trust anyone who wants power"

The seems to be lots in the EU who just want power and the money through inflated wages that go with it. Im talking about people like neil kinnock who could not win an election to save his life.

Got to the point where if we have to have the EU and the unelected politicans and if we vote to stay apart of it then fine but i will except it through gritted teeth but if we do vote to stay in then get rid of every politican in this country. No need for local elections and national ones when our laws are decided in Brussels. At least we could save a fudging fortune there.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Ought to mention i have been in ireland this week, just got back. Let me tell you there is a country that has been destroyed by the EU, my relatives by marriage over there are happy to tell me how much they hate westminster and are scared of london trying to grab control in ireland through the north and coming down.

I know makes me laugh to but now the last few years they hate the EU more then london which is great for me because the most common thing people say to me when im over there now is "you were right all along ben"

I fudging knew it and so did anyone with a brain. I mean everyone i knew with any sense was moving their pensions and savings away from anything to do with europe. It absolutely disgusts me that we were left so open to europes problems and is one of the many reasons why i think gordon brown is a ****.

 

[Gordinho]

Ought to mention i have been in ireland this week, just got back. Let me tell you there is a country that has been destroyed by the EU, my relatives by marriage over there are happy to tell me how much they hate westminster and are scared of london trying to grab control in ireland through the north and coming down.

I know makes me laugh to but now the last few years they hate the EU more then london which is great for me because the most common thing people say to me when im over there now is "you were right all along ben"

I fudging knew it and so did anyone with a brain. I mean everyone i knew with any sense was moving their pensions and savings away from anything to do with europe. It absolutely disgusts me that we were left so open to europes problems and is one of the many reasons why i think gordon brown is a ****.

My relatives see things from a slightly different point of view, County Wicklow where I mainly visit has had quite a few bob of EC money spent on it upgrading the infrastucture, the Celtic Tiger was roaring and the country seemed to be in a never ending boom. As we all know, nothing good lasts forever, my relatives seem more annoyed at themselves for getting caught up in the hype and not having a strategy for when the boom's inevitable end came than anything the EC foist on them.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

My relatives see things from a slightly different point of view, County Wicklow where I mainly visit has had quite a few bob of EC money spent on it upgrading the infrastucture, the Celtic Tiger was roaring and the country seemed to be in a never ending boom. As we all know, nothing good lasts forever, my relatives seem more annoyed at themselves for getting caught up in the hype and not having a strategy for when the boom's inevitable end came than anything the EC foist on them.

The is a lot of that all over the country, i love ireland spent a bit of time over there over the last few years. The EU did it good but at what cost now?

I had trouble earning money when i was younger and that never left me in the boom years, people used to think i was a bit of a bastard because of the way i behaved, for instance i never got miss sold PPI the was no chance i was going to with my behaviour towards money. It is my attitude towards money that keeps me on the right, because on so many issues i am actually very liberal from sex to drugs to immgration in some instances.

But because of my attitude towards money i can never think the EU is a good idea because it is such a massive watse of money.

Im unsure on climate change and that is because of the industry that has grown up around it to make money out of it. Basically my youth working hard on building sites i hated has developed my attitude to everything in latter life. Money money or to quote bill clinton its about the economy stupid. Not calling you stupid gordi. Just that is the basis of my hatred of the EU.

 

[Gordinho]

The is a lot of that all over the country, i love ireland spent a bit of time over there over the last few years. The EU did it good but at what cost now?

I had trouble earning money when i was younger and that never left me in the boom years, people used to think i was a bit of a bastard because of the way i behaved, for instance i never got miss sold PPI the was no chance i was going to with my behaviour towards money. It is my attitude towards money that keeps me on the right, because on so many issues i am actually very liberal from sex to drugs to immgration in some instances.

But because of my attitude towards money i can never think the EU is a good idea because it is such a massive watse of money.

Im unsure on climate change and that is because of the industry that has grown up around it to make money out of it. Basically my youth working hard on building sites i hated has developed my attitude to everything in latter life. Money money or to quote bill clinton its about the economy stupid. Not calling you stupid gordi. Just that is the basis of my hatred of the EU.

Spot on mate, I can't dance with a word you say there.

 

[jts1882]

Im unsure on climate change and that is because of the industry that has grown up around it to make money out of it.

That's a strange point of view. Is there any other science you don't believe because there is an industry that makes money from it? How about combustion, flight, or electricity and electronics? Do you question medical science because pharmaceutical companies make money from it?

I would have thought the opposition to climate science from the traditional energy industry might be more suspicious, as their focus is on buying political influence rather than promoting or funding science that actually provides a better understanding of the climate.

 

[Gordinho]

That's a strange point of view. Is there any other science you don't believe because there is an industry that makes money from it? How about combustion, flight, or electricity and electronics? Do you question medical science because pharmaceutical companies make money from it?

I would have thought the opposition to climate science from the traditional energy industry might be more suspicious, as their focus is on buying political influence rather than promoting or funding science that actually provides a better understanding of the climate.

I think I know what JGL is getting at. My understanding of his post is that there's an industry grown up around it to service our fear of climate change and to sell us remedies for it. The nearest comparison that I can draw off the top of my head is the Millennium Bug, a whole industry grew up around frightening us with lurid stories regarding the possibilty of planes dropping out of the sky, bank doors unlocking themselves, our computers spewing out our bank card details across t'internet, trains running into each other, elevators plummeting in tower blocks and so on, all because of software problems not envisaged when computers came into popular use and before people considered what would happen when the year didn't commence with 19XX.

Companies paid consultants a king's ransom, households threw out their Pentium IIs and on Jan 1st 2000 absolutely nothing happened, was this because the Millennium Bug industry did their job so well or was it because there was never anything to fear in the first place?

Or perhaps the story below will illustrate what I took JGL to be getting at

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think I know what JGL is getting at. My understanding of his post is that there's an industry grown up around it to service our fear of climate change and to sell us remedies for it. The nearest comparison that I can draw off the top of my head is the Millennium Bug, a whole industry grew up around frightening us with lurid stories regarding the possibilty of planes dropping out of the sky, bank doors unlocking themselves, our computers spewing out our bank card details across t'internet, trains running into each other, elevators plummeting in tower blocks and so on, all because of software problems not envisaged when computers came into popular use and before people considered what would happen when the year didn't commence with 19XX.

Companies paid consultants a king's ransom, households threw out their Pentium IIs and on Jan 1st 2000 absolutely nothing happened, was this because the Millennium Bug industry did their job so well or was it because there was never anything to fear in the first place?

Or perhaps the story below will illustrate what I took JGL to be getting at

Exactly right gordi.

They started trying to do the same with the EU saying we could not survive outside of it, now though blair is admitting we could but should we?

Politics is all about fear and so is the climate change thing. I do not actually doubt climate change, i mean i can see what is going on around me. I have questions of how much of it is man made and i belive that people are using the fear of climate change to make money by making out the problems are worse then they are.

Do i have proof of this? no i do not. But i go on my guts in life, obviously when i did that voting for blair and cameron i fudged up but on the whole i am pretty good at seeing scams come my way.

It is like the people that tried to sell me a will a few years ago they were on the take and it was obviously just about a sale for them and they did not know what they are talking about, that does not mean that having a will is a bad idea. Same thing with climate change the politicans are using to wack taxes up and some business's are using it to profit.

Now here is where i sound like a miserable old ****. I don't care for people making money out of me, they can fudge if they think they are conning me(southern water is one im thinking of) and the politicans who will wack massive tax hikes under the green energy banner and then use the money for other things.

The was a report out a few years ago how much road users are paying and little of it goes into roads or even other transport. That is what the climate change crap is about for politicans a way for them to make more money to use for their pet projects and to try to keep themselves relevant.

 

[suffolkspur]

Taking this thread slightly off topic with this but as the issue of climate change formerly known as global warming has arisen this open letter was released today by a few dissenting scientists. Worth a read.

"Open Letter to the Secretary-General of the United Nations

H.E. Ban Ki-Moon, Secretary-General, United Nations
First Avenue and East 44th Street, New York, New York, U.S.A.
November 29, 2012

Mr. Secretary-General:

On November 9 this year you told the General Assembly: “Extreme weather due to climate change is the new normal … Our challenge remains, clear and urgent: to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, to strengthen adaptation to … even larger climate shocks … and to reach a legally binding climate agreement by 2015 … This should be one of the main lessons of Hurricane Sandy.”

On November 13 you said at Yale: “The science is clear; we should waste no more time on that debate.”

The following day, in Al Gore’s “Dirty Weather” Webcast, you spoke of “more severe storms, harsher droughts, greater floods”, concluding: “Two weeks ago, Hurricane Sandy struck the eastern seaboard of the United States. A nation saw the reality of climate change. The recovery will cost tens of billions of dollars. The cost of inaction will be even higher. We must reduce our dependence on carbon emissions.”

We the undersigned, qualified in climate-related matters, wish to state that current scientific knowledge does not substantiate your assertions.

The U.K. Met Office recently released data showing that there has been no statistically significant global warming for almost 16 years. During this period, according to the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), carbon dioxide (CO2) concentrations rose by nearly 9% to now constitute 0.039% of the atmosphere. Global warming that has not occurred cannot have caused the extreme weather of the past few years. Whether, when and how atmospheric warming will resume is unknown. The science is unclear. Some scientists point out that near-term natural cooling, linked to variations in solar output, is also a distinct possibility.

The “even larger climate shocks” you have mentioned would be worse if the world cooled than if it warmed. Climate changes naturally all the time, sometimes dramatically. The hypothesis that our emissions of CO2 have caused, or will cause, dangerous warming is not supported by the evidence.

The incidence and severity of extreme weather has not increased. There is little evidence that dangerous weather-related events will occur more often in the future. The U.N.’s own Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says in its Special Report on Extreme Weather (2012) that there is “an absence of an attributable climate change signal” in trends in extreme weather losses to date. The funds currently dedicated to trying to stop extreme weather should therefore be diverted to strengthening our infrastructure so as to be able to withstand these inevitable, natural events, and to helping communities rebuild after natural catastrophes such as tropical storm Sandy.

There is no sound reason for the costly, restrictive public policy decisions proposed at the U.N. climate conference in Qatar. Rigorous analysis of unbiased observational data does not support the projections of future global warming predicted by computer models now proven to exaggerate warming and its effects.

The NOAA “State of the Climate in 2008” report asserted that 15 years or more without any statistically-significant warming would indicate a discrepancy between observation and prediction. Sixteen years without warming have therefore now proven that the models are wrong by their creators’ own criterion.

Based upon these considerations, we ask that you desist from exploiting the misery of the families of those who lost their lives or properties in tropical storm Sandy by making unsupportable claims that human influences caused that storm. They did not. We also ask that you acknowledge that policy actions by the U.N., or by the signatory nations to the UNFCCC, that aim to reduce CO2 emissions are unlikely to exercise any significant influence on future climate. Climate policies therefore need to focus on preparation for, and adaptation to, all dangerous climatic events however caused.