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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

Grays_1890 said:
Such a sensible post.

I think people could fact check the posts on here from us on what the overall expectations were for Ange and I clearly remember saying we were broken and a massive work in progress, the season before he took over was a mess, the squad was a mess and we ended up flogging Kane a week before the season started.

I don't think it can be underestimated the open squad surgery needed here and also, how disjointed the club was before he joined. Yes we want better on the pitch, yes we should aspire for more but that more was not winning the league year one, two or three (regardless of what Ange says whilst building mentality) and for me I don't see the sense is sacking someone who has been a massive part of embedding what has become joined up thinking across the club for one.

Only Spurs and their fans would call for an overhaul on how the club looks on and off the pitch and want that jacked in after a year (before anyone cries I mean wider fans not on here)
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What I don’t get are the random comments about other managers being great in certain situations which are just factually wrong

I’ve heard it repeated about Arteta
I’m now seeing that Poch made a great start to his second season
It’s just wrong and IMO these errors of opinions are what skew the reality
Below is Pochs first 4 games in season 2

IMG_4294.png

Then his next 4 included a game against …. Qarabag

IMG_4295.png

So where was this brilliant start he had ??
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I’m not spinning it. One open goal will score higher on Xg than 10 good shots from range. That’s how it should work too. We haven’t created those chances really. It’s why our Xg numbers have been poor.
What is key is for that open goal chance they played really fast football

There is a really good analysis by Nathan form the extra inch on the amount of chances we had in that game to pass to a player in a better position. That’s what kills us
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They had an open goal opportunity because they got themselves into a great position through good play and our rank defending. As much as we shouldn’t have lost that game, we didn’t create enough clear cut chances, the type of chances that almost any forward would score. We either need the forwards to create better chances or we need better forwards, it’s that simple. Or we need to be much, much stronger at the back like the top 2 and then we don’t have to rely on scoring 3-4 goals to win every match.
 
DubSpur said:
We're not signing world class players, if you think that we are attractive for that type of player then you are delusional. The only way we are getting a world class player is if we buy them before they are at that level and develop them. We've done that very well up until the last few years. Hopefully we are starting to get back there and identifying players that have the potential to be world class (Bergvall) and getting them early.
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You raise an interesting point re the players we can/cannot expect to attract.
In light of that, should we lower our expectations on the kind of manager/coach we should/can attract?
 
Bedfordspurs said:
What I don’t get are the random comments about other managers being great in certain situations which are just factually wrong

I’ve heard it repeated about Arteta
I’m now seeing that Poch made a great start to his second season
It’s just wrong and IMO these errors of opinions are what skew the reality
Below is Pochs first 4 games in season 2

View attachment 17673

Then his next 4 included a game against …. Qarabag

View attachment 17674

So where was this brilliant start he had ??
Click to expand...

I think alot of it is to do with the fact that people never wanted him and are using cliches and falsehoods to endorse their now views.
 
@Bedfordspurs you raise a fair point about the start of the second season under Poch vs the start under Ange. Gernally points/results-wise they are very similar.

However, what i would say is that with Poch the credit he had in the bank with us by the same point with the results he'd got with us as a club alone (and excluding previous stints hat either of them had) was more.
Poch had shown with games against our closest bitter rivals plus against what would be classed as the 'top teams' that he could get results in such 'big games'. It could very easily be argued that Ange hasn't shown the same levels and has less credit built up.

Looking purely at wins, these are the teams Ange has won against up to this point:
Man Utd
Bournemouth (x2)
Burnley (x3)
Sheffield Utd (x2)
Liverpool
Luton (x2)
Fulham
Palace (x2)
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Forest (x2)
Everton (x2)
Brentford
Brighton
Villa

ZERO wins in our biggest/most veciferous London derbies (vs Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham). Valiant points vs City and Arsenal, lucky win vs Liverpool and zero wins (after Villa in mid-March) against anyone who we would describe as decent, in fact all defeats after that.

Compare that to wins with Poch up to same point:
West ham
QPR (x2)
Arsenal
Soton
Villa
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (x2)
Hull (x2)
Everton (x2)
Chelsea
Swansea (x2)
Burnley (x2)
Leicester (x2)
Sunderland
West Brom
Sheff utd (cup only)
Brighton (cup only)
Nottm Forest (cup only)

There were those infamous wins vs Chelsea and Arsenal (both very good AND as always big rivals) where we showed what we could do when what Poch was working towards clicked. We won that first away hotbed of a game vs west Ham when we had Naughton sent off early and we won by a late Goal from Dier. Yes, we were lucky that they missed their penalty when they had a man advantage and eventually were reduced to ten men themselves. But there was a pragmatism and grit Poch showed in that game: compare that to when we went down to 10 and even 9 vs Chelsea at home last year and yet kept persisting with the suicidal highline against a Chelsea team that were bang average and only had pace in behind at their disposal...chalk and cheese in terms of being pragmatic and adaptable to a difficult situation.

I don't think we have seen a similar set of games from Ange where you look and think wow, this is what is possible if we just have x or y. As shown most of his wins are against fodder, the highlight being Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Man Utd last season (both very good wins btw), but can't compare to the heights Poch showed in his equivalent first year and few games of the second. I'm not going to include the Liverpool win for what should be obvious reasons.
So generally, i get the point about giving a manager time, but i don't think we can or should use Poch's equivalent start with us as a comparison because it makes Ange look even worse tbh...
 
Poch had Kane,Ericksen et all.
Who does Ange have that would be even good enough to get into those teams.
Comparisons are a bit unfair.I think overall some have a mistrust that Ange is good/competant enough to manage at this level and we aren't seeing any improvements/tweaks to his system of playing.That said we need to give the project time to breathe.I hope he makes it to a third season because it will mean we are on the right path.I wanted him as manager but i can hear the other points of views a bit more loudly now.Next 4 league games are crucial .
 
Bedfordspurs said:
What I don’t get are the random comments about other managers being great in certain situations which are just factually wrong

I’ve heard it repeated about Arteta
I’m now seeing that Poch made a great start to his second season
It’s just wrong and IMO these errors of opinions are what skew the reality
Below is Pochs first 4 games in season 2

View attachment 17673

Then his next 4 included a game against …. Qarabag

View attachment 17674

So where was this brilliant start he had ??
Click to expand...
Because it’s Poch.
Some people on here think he was manager of season last year because he took a £1 billion squad to the.. eh European conference league.
 
I think there's some carryover from last season BUT our performances have been good (poor points return), while some individuals could undoubtedly be playing better. Plus some specific elements that need improving/honing.

As someone else suggested (probably @Bedfordspurs ) why don't we reconvene after 10-12 games see if Ange is smoothing out the wrinkles...save a hell of a lot of reading and writing?

Fill your boots on the SM narratives if you've time to burn.
 
glorygloryeze said:
@Bedfordspurs you raise a fair point about the start of the second season under Poch vs the start under Ange. Gernally points/results-wise they are very similar.

However, what i would say is that with Poch the credit he had in the bank with us by the same point with the results he'd got with us as a club alone (and excluding previous stints hat either of them had) was more.
Poch had shown with games against our closest bitter rivals plus against what would be classed as the 'top teams' that he could get results in such 'big games'. It could very easily be argued that Ange hasn't shown the same levels and has less credit built up.

Looking purely at wins, these are the teams Ange has won against up to this point:
Man Utd
Bournemouth (x2)
Burnley (x3)
Sheffield Utd (x2)
Liverpool
Luton (x2)
Fulham
Palace (x2)
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Forest (x2)
Everton (x2)
Brentford
Brighton
Villa

ZERO wins in our biggest/most veciferous London derbies (vs Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham). Valiant points vs City and Arsenal, lucky win vs Liverpool and zero wins (after Villa in mid-March) against anyone who we would describe as decent, in fact all defeats after that.

Compare that to wins with Poch up to same point:
West ham
QPR (x2)
Arsenal
Soton
Villa
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (x2)
Hull (x2)
Everton (x2)
Chelsea
Swansea (x2)
Burnley (x2)
Leicester (x2)
Sunderland
West Brom
Sheff utd (cup only)
Brighton (cup only)
Nottm Forest (cup only)

There were those infamous wins vs Chelsea and Arsenal (both very good AND as always big rivals) where we showed what we could do when what Poch was working towards clicked. We won that first away hotbed of a game vs west Ham when we had Naughton sent off early and we won by a late Goal from Dier. Yes, we were lucky that they missed their penalty when they had a man advantage and eventually were reduced to ten men themselves. But there was a pragmatism and grit Poch showed in that game: compare that to when we went down to 10 and even 9 vs Chelsea at home last year and yet kept persisting with the suicidal highline against a Chelsea team that were bang average and only had pace in behind at their disposal...chalk and cheese in terms of being pragmatic and adaptable to a difficult situation.

I don't think we have seen a similar set of games from Ange where you look and think wow, this is what is possible if we just have x or y. As shown most of his wins are against fodder, the highlight being Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Man Utd last season (both very good wins btw), but can't compare to the heights Poch showed in his equivalent first year and few games of the second. I'm not going to include the Liverpool win for what should be obvious reasons.
So generally, i get the point about giving a manager time, but i don't think we can or should use Poch's equivalent start with us as a comparison because it makes Ange look even worse tbh...
Click to expand...
Honestly I just think it’s people forgetting what really happened and thinking the grass was much greener

Using the logic that is being thrown at Ange, Poch should have been sacked much much earlier with his start in S2. The club didn’t and look what happened

For us to get back in the CL it won’t be results against the big 6, it will be the ones against wolves or Leicester and Brentford
 
Mcfee said:
Because it’s Poch.
Some people on here think he was manager of season last year because he took a £1 billion squad to the.. eh European conference league.
Click to expand...
It’s just revisionism because people have crossed lines and thoughts about him and others

Poch was a great manager but he had a horrendous start in season 2
He ended it with a title challenge
 
DubSpur said:
We're not signing world class players, if you think that we are attractive for that type of player then you are delusional. The only way we are getting a world class player is if we buy them before they are at that level and develop them. We've done that very well up until the last few years. Hopefully we are starting to get back there and identifying players that have the potential to be world class (Bergvall) and getting them early.
Click to expand...
I agree with this so much. Arsenal signed Rice when they had just run City very close in the PL and would have been more attractive to a £100m player for it. It seems (and I hope) the plan is to revert to bringing in and promoting excellent young players. They might not get us over the line on their own but I think they could get us to a point where a couple more expensive experienced additions fancy the challenge and come in to fill any gaps and make the difference.
 
jabbathehut said:
Poch had Kane,Ericksen et all.
Who does Ange have that would be even good enough to get into those teams.
Comparisons are a bit unfair.I think overall some have a mistrust that Ange is good/competant enough to manage at this level and we aren't seeing any improvements/tweaks to his system of playing.That said we need to give the project time to breathe.I hope he makes it to a third season because it will mean we are on the right path.I wanted him as manager but i can hear the other points of views a bit more loudly now.Next 4 league games are crucial .
Click to expand...

Good post, for me we could/should have won at Leicester and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, we did not because we were not clinical enough. Now i know some will dismiss that but we lost the games because we did not finish the chances we created.
 
Spurscape said:
I agree with this so much. Arsenal signed Rice when they had just run City very close in the PL and would have been more attractive to a £100m player for it. It seems (and I hope) the plan is to revert to bringing in and promoting excellent young players. They might not get us over the line on their own but I think they could get us to a point where a couple more expensive experienced additions fancy the challenge and come in to fill any gaps and make the difference.
Click to expand...
We may, once the squad is more robust, but we will see
Right now we just need the guys we have to show their quality
 
Diamond Lights said:
so many thoughts. Will try to be brief on where i stand:

1) We haven't improved over the Summer. Not really. Last year we had a midfield that did not work effectively, and wingers who could not get the job done. We went over the Summer and started the season and guess what, we have those same midfielders and wingers (with Odobert now added).

This is evidenced with Ange, whether he starts with Bentancur, or Sarr, or Bissouma, or Kulu, or Brennan, or Odobert, or Timo (lol) it's all just the same, all so interchangeable and absolutely no nailed on starter because we didn't improve the first XI

2) It may be "who we are mate", but it aint working. Klopp tore Geggenpress up when he moved to Liverpool and even cut his assistant who helped build that in Dortmund. Ange may be wedded to something but doesn't mean it will work and that it cannot be altered. His stubborness is causing issues

3) need to face facts that Son, Romero need to be dropped or rotated more starting this weekend

Overall i went into the season with high hopes but i realise now that was foolish. We really have roostered up another summer window. I keep saying the same thing, if you want to behave like Brighton, then charge Brighton ST prices. If you're gonna charge the highest prices in the league, then dont be surprised if the fanbase isn't happy with where things are going.
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1. This is just an unfair take, No backup CF replaced with Solanke (record signing), Richi now backup CF, Solomon replaced with Wilson, Emerson Royal replaced with Spence, Skipp replaced with Gray, GLC replaced with Bergvall. Plus every piece of deadwood minus Reguilon moved on. Yes, we still have midfield balance issues but to say no improvement is OTT

2. Klopp did not tear up Geggenpress and he struggled basically until he bought Allison & VVD (they were too open, sound familiar?), plus 70% of Pool's squad got asthma. And lets not pretend Pool and Spurs are/were the same level (point other posters have made about expectations)

3. Fan comment, we are struggling to score so the suggestion is to drop the most clinical player in Europe (statistically Son outscores his xG by a greater margin than any other striker consistently over years). Adjust the system but dropping the two WC players is a hot take.

What does the ticket prices have to do with anything?
- are you saying that if tickets are cheap, people wouldn't care? people will always bitch
- are you saying we don't spend? we are #5 in net spend and for context, the only top 6 side that outspent us was United (the fact that Chelsea technically didn't is a whole other story)
- For what it's worth, the most expensive tickets in the PL are from Fulham (tells you how much fudge all that stat means)
- We backed the manager, Ange has been very clear that he has made the final call on every player.

Lets be clear, Ange may completely run aground in the next 10 games, and Gray, Wilson, Bergvall, Solanke may all not work out, none of us know. But that take after 4 games is exactly what the last 3 pages have been taking about ..
 
Raziel said:
1. This is just an unfair take, No backup CF replaced with Solanke (record signing), Richi now backup CF, Solomon replaced with Wilson, Emerson Royal replaced with Spence, Skipp replaced with Gray, GLC replaced with Bergvall. Plus every piece of deadwood minus Reguilon moved on. Yes, we still have midfield balance issues but to say no improvement is OTT

2. Klopp did not tear up Geggenpress and he struggled basically until he bought Allison & VVD (they were too open, sound familiar?), plus 70% of Pool's squad got asthma. And lets not pretend Pool and Spurs are/were the same level (point other posters have made about expectations)

3. Fan comment, we are struggling to score so the suggestion is to drop the most clinical player in Europe (statistically Son outscores his xG by a greater margin than any other striker consistently over years). Adjust the system but dropping the two WC players is a hot take.

What does the ticket prices have to do with anything?
- are you saying that if tickets are cheap, people wouldn't care? people will always bitch
- are you saying we don't spend? we are #5 in net spend and for context, the only top 6 side that outspent us was United (the fact that Chelsea technically didn't is a whole other story)
- For what it's worth, the most expensive tickets in the PL are from Fulham (tells you how much fudge all that stat means)
- We backed the manager, Ange has been very clear that he has made the final call on every player.

Lets be clear, Ange may completely run aground in the next 10 games, and Gray, Wilson, Bergvall, Solanke may all not work out, none of us know. But that take after 4 games is exactly what the last 3 pages have been taking about ..
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I want son and Romero dropped
Neither pulling up trees and just because someone excelled in one system, it doesn’t mean they will in another
But Ange won’t do that so he has to do something else imo to get the reactions he needs
 
Comparisons with Poch are nonsense. Ange will not do what Poch did here in terms of league finishes (the run of 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). But I'm not sure any other manager would either so sacking him in the hope of finding the next Poch comes with massive risk.

Maybe Ange will manage to win a cup or two but in the league he's not going to do much better than 4th - 7th place.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Comparisons with Poch are nonsense. Ange will not do what Poch did here in terms of league finishes (the run of 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). But I'm not sure any other manager would either so sacking him in the hope of finding the next Poch comes with massive risk.

Maybe Ange will manage to win a cup or two but in the league he's not going to do much better than 4th - 7th place.
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I'd take continuing in the Europa League for a couple of seasons if it came with a cup win or two... b ring it on!

(Bizarrely, the phrase 'b ring it on' seems to fall foul of the swear filter..????)
 
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