Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[harr1984]

Before Bournemouth, Iraola coached in Spain. Before outcoaching Postecoglou yesterday, McKenna managed Ipswich in the Championship.

Both are higher levels than Postecoglou has ever coached at before he came here. That's why people say what they say mate.

Ah the good old 'outcoached' label, just a pretty meaningless tag that amounts to nothing more than the manager won the game. There was no superior tactical nous at play. And it is funny that the level Ange previously coached at always gets brought up after a defeat. How many people were bringing up the level he coached at when he majorly 'outcoached' Emery a week ago.....

 

[Grays_1890]

Ah the good old 'outcoached' label, just a pretty meaningless tag that amounts to nothing more than the manager won the game. There was no superior tactical nous at play. And it is funny that the level Ange previously coached at always gets brought up after a defeat. How many people were bringing up the level he coached at when he majorly 'outcoached' Emery a week ago.....

Its also one that can be reversed by saying those we beat were beaten by a manager who "managed in a lesser environment" don't say much for Pep...except we know its all a wash.

Managers have to come from somewhere so the theory is flawed, Pep was only a youth coach when he was given a chance, Jose was a translator FFS haha. Plenty of managers have come from major backgrounds and CVs to this league and failed, if only it was as easy

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Before Bournemouth, Iraola coached in Spain. Before outcoaching Postecoglou yesterday, McKenna managed Ipswich in the Championship.

Both are higher levels than Postecoglou has ever coached at before he came here. That's why people say what they say mate.

Really
It’s not that at all though
It’s people who just want something new because there is no pay patience for the pain of change

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Ah the good old 'outcoached' label, just a pretty meaningless tag that amounts to nothing more than the manager won the game. There was no superior tactical nous at play. And it is funny that the level Ange previously coached at always gets brought up after a defeat. How many people were bringing up the level he coached at when he majorly 'outcoached' Emery a week ago.....

Exactly
Not one person because it doesn’t suit the agenda

 

[Mikey10]

Ah the good old 'outcoached' label, just a pretty meaningless tag that amounts to nothing more than the manager won the game. There was no superior tactical nous at play. And it is funny that the level Ange previously coached at always gets brought up after a defeat. How many people were bringing up the level he coached at when he majorly 'outcoached' Emery a week ago.....

To be fair, plenty were worried that (given his previous level of experience) he would be outcoached even before he was appointed.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Ah the good old 'outcoached' label, just a pretty meaningless tag that amounts to nothing more than the manager won the game. There was no superior tactical nous at play. And it is funny that the level Ange previously coached at always gets brought up after a defeat. How many people were bringing up the level he coached at when he majorly 'outcoached' Emery a week ago.....

It's fair to say he was outcoached. McKenna nullified his one tactic completely, and he has no other ideas so outside of a corner we got basically nothing. On the other end, they broke at pace and scored twice, again pretty easy to do given our one tactic that is laughably easy to score against.

Would have been different if we had 20 shots on goal to their 2 and their keeper played a blinder. Didn't end up that way.

As for Emery, no question he's a better manager than Postecoglou, but amusingly, he's also one of the few that Postecoglou seems to have the number of. In the league, there's not many that lose to us humiliatingly not once but twice in quick succession.

To your broader point about his background only being brought up when we lose, people aren't exactly going to complain about the coach if he wins. It's just that Postecoglou doesn't seem capable of doing that very often in a league with tougher coaches and opponents than St. Johnstone, Sanfrecce Hiroshima or Western Sydney Wanderers FC. And lots of people said this when he was appointed too.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

To be fair, plenty were worried that (given his previous level of experience) he would be outcoached even before he was appointed.

And they won’t let go of that
That’s a shame but u less he wins something it will always be a stick to him with
He literally beat everyone he had too ro win trophies in the leagues he was in but because it wasn’t a league people know about they would prefer a guy who hasn’t won anything
Then we have people complaining we don’t have a winner in charge …
And we go again

 

[DubaiSpur]

And they won’t let go of that
That’s a shame but u less he wins something it will always be a stick to him with
He literally beat everyone he had too ro win trophies in the leagues he was in but because it wasn’t a league people know about they would prefer a guy who hasn’t won anything
And we go again

An the point is mate, most if not all of those coaches he beat wouldn't cut it at Spurs either.

Being the best of a bunch of no-names doesn't make you qualified to compete in a league which attracts the best of the best (unlike Scotland, Australia or Japan).

Ultimately, he has no track record to inspire faith. Very few results. No sign of tactical depth or thinking beyond his one tactic. In the bottom half over the last calendar year. Just lost to Ipswich Town, at home.

The only thing that is saving him is that he is not the problem at the club - that problem is sat above him in the Directors' Box, as he has done for 25 grinding years. So Postecoglou should get patience, because we have no choice.

But that is not a ringing endorsement of Postecoglou's talent. Just a recognition of the grim circumstances at THFC that extend well beyond him, and which are not his fault.

 

[Grays_1890]

And they won’t let go of that
That’s a shame but u less he wins something it will always be a stick to him with
He literally beat everyone he had too ro win trophies in the leagues he was in but because it wasn’t a league people know about they would prefer a guy who hasn’t won anything
Then we have people complaining we don’t have a winner in charge …
And we go again

Exactly, any manager history can be spun, bipolar Spurs, including me at time hands up, we don't know what we want and don't have the patience to find out.

I said it before I am bored of it all now, I can't take another reinvention at Spurs only to have the same conversation in two years

 

[Bedfordspurs]

An the point is mate, most if not all of those coaches he beat wouldn't cut it at Spurs either.

Being the best of a bunch of no-names doesn't make you qualified to compete in a league which attracts the best of the best (unlike Scotland, Australia or Japan).

Ultimately, he has no track record to inspire faith. Very few results. No sign of tactical depth or thinking beyond his one tactic. In the bottom half over the last calendar year. Just lost to Ipswich Town, at home.

The only thing that is saving him is that he is not the problem at the club - that problem is sat above him in the Directors' Box, as he has done for 25 grinding years. So Postecoglou should get patience, because we have no choice.

But that is not a ringing endorsement of Postecoglou's talent. Just a recognition of the grim circumstances at THFC that extend well beyond him, and which are not his fault.

Again it’s your opinion
I disagree
Your bets gonna say that the Chelsea manager winning the championship with Lestah is an achievement greater than Anges

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Exactly, any manager history can be spun, bipolar Spurs, including me at time hands up, we don't know what we want and don't have the patience to find out.

I said it before I am bored of it all now, I can't take another reinvention at Spurs only to have the same conversation in two years

We have plan that’s clearly having some bumps on the journey
It’s the painful rebuild pain that everyone says we need but no one wants

 

[Muttley]

Personally, I do think Scott Munn has every right to ask Ange what is going on with this up and down season. If I were Scott, I wouldn't want any more of the deep thought psychology narrative that Ange frequently comes out with. We've had enough of that. I'd insist on having a structured football conversation about what is happening on the pitch. Perhaps even a player by player opinion.

When you look closely, you see that we've scored 23 and conceded 13. Our GA column just isn't that bad at all. It's very comparable to the teams around us and genuinely looks like we have a chance of shaving off 20 goals from last season's debacle in defence. The problem is the games lost column puts us in 12th place. It's the inability for the Ange system to get draws that is becoming a major problem. If I were Scott, I'd also want to know about the away tactics and results as well.

This isn't about hiring and firing. It's about what the club can do to help Ange, on top of the massive investment he's already had from Munn to develop the squad. Perhaps Ange does need a reminder that he has access to all of the other strategies and tactics from the manager's playbook. He's kept it incredibly narrow to date with his Plan A that often doesn't work. That is perhaps becoming the elephant in the room.

 

[braineclipse]

I think it's to some degree fine margins but I think those margins are somewhat inherent with our playing style. The basic setup we have is one that equals high scoring games, but not necessarily only in our favour. If you regularly play relatively open high scoring games you're gonna win some and you're gonna lose some and that's borne out by our results. Even the mighty Barcelona right in Pep and Messi's pomp were prone to winning or losing games on specific element moment. It's knife edge football but there are ways to maximise that edge in your favour.

We have a team that will pretty much always score but likewise it will always concede so at the best from a defensive point of view the opposition are always going to feel they have a glimmer of a chance and our own defence will be very aware of that fragility also.

Fine margins are inherent to any style of play imo.

I think part of the valid criticism last season was that we conceded too much. This season we're seemingly conceding less.

Liverpool are the outlier this season. Other than them we're in the same ballpark or equal to the teams we want to be competing with.

 

[braineclipse]

Also, the idea was that the system and team would improve with time.

If anything, the opposite has happened - after a fast start, we have looked worse and worse, and the past 365 days of form would have seen us bottom half. And the excuses for Postecoglou are drying up too.

Last year it was injuries followed by having *too few* matches.

This year it's apparently *too many* matches leading to Porro, Udogie et al being burned out.

So, he can't handle too few games, and also apparently cannot handle too many games.

He absolutely isn't the main issue at the club, which is why he deserves time.

But he hasn't earned that patience on his merits or his results, or his track record, which is employing his one single tactic over and over again in the relatively low-stakes footballing wilderness of Australia, Japan, and Scotland.

It's only recognition of extenuating circumstances that is keeping him in the job. I hope for his sake that changes down the road.

It's difficult to argue with perception. You perceive us to be getting worse and worse, I perceive us to be improving.

I don't think xG is the end all be all conversation stopper some people perhaps think. But it gives some indication I think. Nathan A Clark posted this on twitter (before the Ipswich game):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853848964023423121

To me that at least indicates improvement. Doesn't prove it, but indicates it. Again, difficult to argue with perception.

Add to that it's conceding less, scoring a lot. It's not coming together to consistent performances and results, but I think there's positive movement.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Again it’s your opinion
I disagree
Your bets gonna say that the Chelsea manager winning the championship with Lestah is an achievement greater than Anges

It's about on par imo. Scottish football is roughly equal to the Championship, but a lot less competitive.

A-League/Japanese league are more like League 1 level, or lower. Those are the levels Postecoglou has managed at with success. Up here in the Prem, it's an open question whether he has the talent, skill or tactical ability to even keep up.

 

[DubaiSpur]

It's difficult to argue with perception. You perceive us to be getting worse and worse, I perceive us to be improving.

I don't think xG is the end all be all conversation stopper some people perhaps think. But it gives some indication I think.

It isn't solely perception, it's more the different metrics we're using - actual results vs xG. I see our results getting worse and attribute that to us not improving. You see xG getting better and attribute that to us improving.

It's not easy for either of us to shift to the other's favored metric. On xG, I will only say that if it doesn't take quality of opposition into account, it's a bit meaningless as a metric - and the fact remains that we have had a comparatively easy start that makes racking up xG easier. We have yet to visit Anfield, the Emirates, the Etihad, Stamford Bridge, etc., so a bit like the false start from last year, the real test will come when our xG is tallied from those places.

 

[braineclipse]

It isn't solely perception, it's more the different metrics we're using - actual results vs xG. I see our results getting worse and attribute that to us not improving. You see xG getting better and attribute that to us improving.

It's not easy for either of us to shift to the other's favored metric. On xG, I will only say that if it doesn't take quality of opposition into account, it's a bit meaningless as a metric - and the fact remains that we have had a comparatively easy start that makes racking up xG easier. We have yet to visit Anfield, the Emirates, the Etihad, Stamford Bridge, etc., so a bit like the false start from last year, the real test will come when our xG is tallied from those places.

On actual results I'm probably a bit of an outlier. I think there's way more luck/variance in football than most I think.

Over a season it probably somewhat evens out, maybe. But even then I think most narratives around football understate the luck/variance element.

10 games to me is much too little to say anything on improvement based on results. Unless there's a massive swing, which there hasn't been. A couple of moments in a couple of games easily could have seen us third. Equally a couple of moments in a couple of games probably could have seen us in way more trouble. Point isn't that I think we've been the third best team in the league, just that there's quite a bit of variance in how our results have gone.

I'm not basing my opinion on xG. I think based on my viewing of the games we've improved on the whole. But I also like to have a look at xG numbers as it's somewhat interesting when they match or don't match my impression.

I think a couple of weeks ago I saw a figure showing that we'd had an "average" start to the season in terms of quality of opposition. But yeah, some tough games to come and that may skew the numbers a bit.

 

[braineclipse]

It's fair to say he was outcoached. McKenna nullified his one tactic completely, and he has no other ideas so outside of a corner we got basically nothing. On the other end, they broke at pace and scored twice, again pretty easy to do given our one tactic that is laughably easy to score against.

Would have been different if we had 20 shots on goal to their 2 and their keeper played a blinder. Didn't end up that way.

As for Emery, no question he's a better manager than Postecoglou, but amusingly, he's also one of the few that Postecoglou seems to have the number of. In the league, there's not many that lose to us humiliatingly not once but twice in quick succession.

To your broader point about his background only being brought up when we lose, people aren't exactly going to complain about the coach if he wins. It's just that Postecoglou doesn't seem capable of doing that very often in a league with tougher coaches and opponents than St. Johnstone, Sanfrecce Hiroshima or Western Sydney Wanderers FC. And lots of people said this when he was appointed too.

I'm not sure I would agree we got basically nothing outside a corner.

We had 17 shots to their 8. 5 shots on target to their 3. We had Johnson through on goal from a cross early, Solanke through on goal late on (though narrow angle), the chest down and finish from Solanke, the hand ball goal from Solanke (another corner though), Werner's shot over the bar after a good move (Werner though so doesn't count), also several decent long shot opportunities (somewhat uncharacteristically this season several of them from Son).

That's not to say we were good enough. Imo it was a fairly close game that we lost as they took their chances and we didn't. That's not good enough at home to Ipswich. That's also what happens when you drop 10% in quality and intensity even against a relegation candidate.

 

[Baleforce]

We've conceded 13 goals in the league this season in 11 games. If my maths checks out if that remains consistent we'd end up conceding 45 goals this season (rounding up from 44.9)

Last season we conceded 61.

If we've gone backwards with regards to conceding soft goals compared to last season we've definitely improved quite a lot on conceding non soft goals.

I think we've improved defensively. We've conceded the same number of goals as Chelsea and City. Only one more than Arsenal.

We also have the second best goal difference in the league and have scored the most goals in the league.

I think some fine margins going against us and some poor performances somewhat skews the impression of our performances overall.

I think we will continue to give up a good number of chances, in an amount I consider excessive.

Everyone is crap this year so I’m not really swayed by relative statistics.

Yes fine margins have gone against us, but the style of play leads to unstable games, that’s what I would want to see change.

I don’t think he’s likely to do that though.

 

[braineclipse]

I think we will continue to give up a good number of chances, in an amount I consider excessive.

Everyone is crap this year so I’m not really swayed by relative statistics.

Yes fine margins have gone against us, but the style of play leads to unstable games, that’s what I would want to see change.

I don’t think he’s likely to do that though.

Not being swayed by statistics is fine. I'm not sure what you mean by relative statistics, surely if looking at our number of goals conceded we have to compare it to something like other teams or us last season?

I think fine margins will be involved regardless of the style of play.

I agree that our games seem unstable, or our performances are unstable. That's part of what Ange has to work on with this relatively young team. We have to start against Ipswich an intensity and focus much closer to what we saw against City in the league cup for example.

This is not a new issue, this is not an issue specific to Ange. If he can fix it is another question. I think he can.