Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

Not sure I agree

- Richi, Porro, Johnson, Solanke, Maddison are expense signings
- Bissouma, Deki, Bentancur were expensive players that we used timing/situation to our advantage
- Gray, Wilson are not cheap gambles/punts/whatever terminology you want to call it
- Our spend post Stadium/Covid is significant

The difference remains, 3 clubs, City, chelsea & United can afford to make multiple bad purchases and it doesn't affect future windows, our hit ratio needs to be better (Ndombele/GLC investments hurt us)

Romero and VDV are £45m each

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree with much of your post but I think we have to be careful using this sample as conclusive proof that Ange's system can work regularly at the top level. Villa aside the other 2 are not the high flying teams we've seen in previous seasons. I still feel our inability to become a solid defensive unit will make it difficult to achieve consistency at the moment. Especially in games where we tire or in all or nothing cup games.

Maybe the defensive issues are down to the personnel rather than the system
especially, yet again with depth being challenged with a third of a squad missing or injured

 

[harr1984]

I agree with much of your post but I think we have to be careful using this sample as conclusive proof that Ange's system can work regularly at the top level. Villa aside the other 2 are not the high flying teams we've seen in previous seasons. I still feel our inability to become a solid defensive unit will make it difficult to achieve consistency at the moment. Especially in games where we tire or in all or nothing cup games.

Whilst I agree we still have to work on consistency I don't know why you want to downplay beating Emirates Marketing Project twice, especially 4-0 away - how many teams have done that?! This season or any other? They are still second in the league, and are most definitely a top level team. And yet you make an exception for Villa who are below us in the league, showing the same inconsistency struggles as us whilst in the Champions League?

You are right, we need to find better consistency especially games after European matches. But the league is getting more and more competitive, and despite whatever grievances people have we are 3 points off 3rd being top scorers in the league and only a handful of teams have a better defence (for now anyway, fudge knows what will happen with Vicario out). That along with the eye test tells me it's some small margins that we need to iron out but Ange is showing a willingness to adapt in certain scenarios which is another positive....

 

[Gazza]

I think signing any young player instead of a ready made player is a punt, especially if they have not any experience at the top level. I’m sure the scouts have done their home work before any bid was made. So this of not a dig or a slant on the club so don’t get defensive about it. If anything I love a left field young player signing …

However will we see a time when we will go out and buy perhaps 2-3 top players that will start with the experience to get us across the line in difficult matches?

Or are we still operating on the assumption that if we throw enough brick on the wall some of it will stick?

I think we are not that far off having a ready solid team. For example pushing the boat out and signing Eze (not that I personally rate him) along with Solanke instead of some talented youngsters that may come good eventually, perhaps would have given us more resource that Ange needs today?

There has to be a balance of course, but we have had lots of windows signing young players … perhaps put that aside for a few windows and get the manager what he needs to get the monkey off our back and deliver the fans a manager backed with players for the now to see what can be achieved?

The mixed bag of results perhaps could have been avoided if Ange was given two to three players that would push for the first team not players that are fodder in Europe.

Ultimately I know some of us love levy and others can’t wait to have a dig, but it’s been a common theme of a questionable transfer strategy under Levy during their ownership. Yes they spend money … but do they spend it for success ? Do they spend enough of it directly backing the manager?

I always feel like our managers are hamstrung in this department.

 

[Robspur12]

Whilst I agree we still have to work on consistency I don't know why you want to downplay beating Emirates Marketing Project twice, especially 4-0 away - how many teams have done that?! This season or any other? They are still second in the league, and are most definitely a top level team. And yet you make an exception for Villa who are below us in the league, showing the same inconsistency struggles as us whilst in the Champions League?

You are right, we need to find better consistency especially games after European matches. But the league is getting more and more competitive, and despite whatever grievances people have we are 3 points off 3rd being top scorers in the league and only a handful of teams have a better defence (for now anyway, fudge knows what will happen with Vicario out). That along with the eye test tells me it's some small margins that we need to iron out but Ange is showing a willingness to adapt in certain scenarios which is another positive....

Don't get me wrong. I'm really happy with the result but let's be honest City are on a record breaking losing run. Utd are not great either. Villa are a decent team but not a top team yet. I am just urging caution with the comment that his system works at the top level. For me, that means beating an Arsenal or Liverpool who are on a good run and on top of their game and/or achieving some consistency. That we lose one week to Ipswich and next week beat City is mad.

I don't think I have a grievance. I just don't want to lurch from everything is great one week when we win, to conversely everything being awful when we lose. Trying to find a bit of balance. And I think it is a perfectly reasonable position to take.

 

[harr1984]

Don't get me wrong. I'm really happy with the result but let's be honest City are on a record breaking losing run. Utd are not great either. Villa are a decent team but not a top team yet. I am just urging caution with the comment that his system works at the top level. For me, that means beating an Arsenal or Liverpool who are on a good run and on top of their game and/or achieving some consistency. That we lose one week to Ipswich and next week beat City is mad.

I don't think I have a grievance. I just don't want to lurch from everything is great one week when we win, to conversely everything being awful when we lose. Trying to find a bit of balance. And I think it is a perfectly reasonable position to take.

I agree with your balanced stance mate, that wasn't what I was querying. Was just you challenging Emirates Marketing Project as a top team result, yes they are on record breaking losing run - due to us beating them twice I don't see how beating Arsenal is better than Emirates Marketing Project tbh beyond the fact they are our rivals city are still the better team. But regardless we still have work to do for sure....

 

[Robspur12]

I agree with your balanced stance mate, that wasn't what I was querying. Was just you challenging Emirates Marketing Project as a top team result, yes they are on record breaking losing run - due to us beating them twice I don't see how beating Arsenal is better than Emirates Marketing Project tbh beyond the fact they are our rivals city are still the better team. But regardless we still have work to do for sure....

I think currently Arsenal have an edge over City (sadly). That might change as the season progresses but it is looking at the moment like the league is a two way fight between Arsenal and Liverpool. City look spent. But tbh let's see how we go. There's definitely much to like from Ange and this team.

 

[SteveAWOL]

They created a lot of volume but not a lot of quality
When Leicester drew with us they had 2 chances that were worth almost 1 xg and scored one
They were outplayed but they got the result their quality of chance accumulation says they should have
But imo a lot of 0.1 chances doesn’t equate to 1 in 10 going in because the quality factor is so low (I know stats would counter that)

This. Better to carve teams open and create a couple of gilt edged chances to tap in from 6 yards out (like €iteh used to in their heyday or when we’ve been sucker punched by quick counter attacks) than to have 20 pot shots from range. Bit is a weakness in assessing xG tallies as you say.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This. Better to carve teams open and create a couple of gilt edged chances to tap in from 6 yards out (like €iteh used to in their heyday or when we’ve been sucker punched by quick counter attacks) than to have 20 pot shots from range. Bit is a weakness in assessing xG tallies as you say.

View attachment 18116

It’s why I ignore a cumulative Xg
The data doesn’t work unless everything is the same
The same shot, same player, same conditions
Football has many more variables than something like rolling a dice for example

 

[Raziel]

However will we see a time when we will go out and buy perhaps 2-3 top players that will start with the experience to get us across the line in difficult matches?

Or are we still operating on the assumption that if we throw enough brick on the wall some of it will stick?

I think we are not that far off having a ready solid team. For example pushing the boat out and signing Eze (not that I personally rate him) along with Solanke instead of some talented youngsters that may come good eventually, perhaps would have given us more resource that Ange needs today?

There has to be a balance of course, but we have had lots of windows signing young players … perhaps put that aside for a few windows and get the manager what he needs to get the monkey off our back and deliver the fans a manager backed with players for the now to see what can be achieved?

The mixed bag of results perhaps could have been avoided if Ange was given two to three players that would push for the first team not players that are fodder in Europe.

Ultimately I know some of us love levy and others can’t wait to have a dig, but it’s been a common theme of a questionable transfer strategy under Levy during their ownership. Yes they spend money … but do they spend it for success ? Do they spend enough of it directly backing the manager?

I always feel like our managers are hamstrung in this department.

Romero (Seria A defender of year, WC winner, Copa winner), Bentancur (3 time Seria A winner, 2 Coppa's) Richi, Maddison, Solanke are exactly that. Perisic was that.

Yes they are holes in the team (LB, GK, RW, maybe DM) but that's ignoring the starting lineup -> Vic, Udogie, VDV, Romero, Bentancur, Maddison, Deki, Son, Solanke, Johnson plus bench Dragusin, Spence, Werner, Biss, Richi, Gray, Bergvall, Davies, Wilson, Moore, the entire squad has 2 players from >4 seasons ago, Son & Davies, and only Son is a starter.

The problem is you can't refresh the entire squad and get top quality (finished product) at same time, so you have to make trade offs, in my opinion (I don't have insights inside club) is it looks like we choose to solve the depth/refresh problem by going with promising talent (Gray, Dragusin, Bergvall, Moore, Wilson), while still picking up the Maddison/Solanke type signings

Ange has been backed as well as anyone can expect. Spurs spend in the last 4 years is competitive.

The proof is in the future, we have a good pipeline of youth (Vuskovich, Moore, Devine, Yang) to still leverage, will there be another Solanke or two next summer?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Romero (Seria A defender of year, WC winner, Copa winner), Bentancur (3 time Seria A winner, 2 Coppa's) Richi, Maddison, Solanke are exactly that. Perisic was that.

Yes they are holes in the team (LB, GK, RW, maybe DM) but that's ignoring the starting lineup -> Vic, Udogie, VDV, Romero, Bentancur, Maddison, Deki, Son, Solanke, Johnson plus bench Dragusin, Spence, Werner, Biss, Richi, Gray, Bergvall, Davies, Wilson, Moore, the entire squad has 2 players from >4 seasons ago, Son & Davies, and only Son is a starter.

The problem is you can't refresh the entire squad and get top quality (finished product) at same time, so you have to make trade offs, in my opinion (I don't have insights inside club) is it looks like we choose to solve the depth/refresh problem by going with promising talent (Gray, Dragusin, Bergvall, Moore, Wilson), while still picking up the Maddison/Solanke type signings

Ange has been backed as well as anyone can expect. Spurs spend in the last 4 years is competitive.

The proof is in the future, we have a good pipeline of youth (Vuskovich, Moore, Devine, Yang) to still leverage, will there be another Solanke or two next summer?

The issue a lot of fans have is we haven’t fixed issues that are obvious eg like LB cover and of course they don’t have the patience for painful rebuild

 

[Muttley]

It still occurs to me that the success or failure of Ange will be more down to his tactics and nurturing of players rather than budgets and transfers.

I haven't once looked at any win or loss this season and thought to myself that the primary reason was the players. I don't look at the Ipswich result and think it would have been any different if we spent another £100m. Ditto with the City result and declaring victory that we're the greatest team on the planet and should therefore win the league. The team tactics trump all of that.

I still cannot tell whether Ange is just passing through or can do at least 5 years with us. I am genuinely intrigued by him though.

 

[Bullet]

The team tactics trump all of that.

And the player desire/spirit/fight/determination trumps the tactics.

We saw it a few games ago, Ange said he didn't make subs because none of the team were showing the fight required, so changing a few players would be pointless. (Personally I would have liked him to b*ll*ck everyone and change 5 players, rather than stand and watch it unfold). But it is true that you need the desire etc. as well as decent tactics as well as decent talent levels. You can't do anything important without all 3 ingredients.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not sure paying relatively big money for teenagers like Gray and Odobert who had real experience in the Championship and Premier League respectively counts as "punts".

There has been some inflation and added football inflation since then, so numbers are a bit iffy to compare directly... But still, Archie Gray would have been our record transfer fee paid pre Davidson Sanchez 7 years ago.

I personally would not compare Gray and Odobert. From my perspective, Gray was an excellent independant choice aligned with development for the future, and was a fabulous opportunity. Similar to Bergvall, albeit Gray was always going to have a more seamless transition due to LUFC experience. An excellent purchase both as a talent but also an 'asset'.
I always saw Odobert as a 'short-list option' choice. I don't compare the two personally.

 

[thfcsteff]

It still occurs to me that the success or failure of Ange will be more down to his tactics and nurturing of players rather than budgets and transfers.

I haven't once looked at any win or loss this season and thought to myself that the primary reason was the players. I don't look at the Ipswich result and think it would have been any different if we spent another £100m. Ditto with the City result and declaring victory that we're the greatest team on the planet and should therefore win the league. The team tactics trump all of that.

I still cannot tell whether Ange is just passing through or can do at least 5 years with us. I am genuinely intrigued by him though.

A great conversation to have IMO, because I disagree ...I think against Ipswich we needed our leader group to step up and take charge of the game. They didn't. Perhaps it was a learning curve, but had we had (for example) a player such as Gallagher who drives and harries and carries and drives again, that energy and desire to win might well have been the difference/catalyst in a game such as Ipswich. Who knows, it's a fun thing to discuss though.

 

[Gazza]

Romero (Seria A defender of year, WC winner, Copa winner), Bentancur (3 time Seria A winner, 2 Coppa's) Richi, Maddison, Solanke are exactly that. Perisic was that.

Yes they are holes in the team (LB, GK, RW, maybe DM) but that's ignoring the starting lineup -> Vic, Udogie, VDV, Romero, Bentancur, Maddison, Deki, Son, Solanke, Johnson plus bench Dragusin, Spence, Werner, Biss, Richi, Gray, Bergvall, Davies, Wilson, Moore, the entire squad has 2 players from >4 seasons ago, Son & Davies, and only Son is a starter.

The problem is you can't refresh the entire squad and get top quality (finished product) at same time, so you have to make trade offs, in my opinion (I don't have insights inside club) is it looks like we choose to solve the depth/refresh problem by going with promising talent (Gray, Dragusin, Bergvall, Moore, Wilson), while still picking up the Maddison/Solanke type signings

Ange has been backed as well as anyone can expect. Spurs spend in the last 4 years is competitive.

The proof is in the future, we have a good pipeline of youth (Vuskovich, Moore, Devine, Yang) to still leverage, will there be another Solanke or two next summer?

Some great points there in summary.

This summer would have been for me where we could have and should have got the likes of more of the above rather than going back to spending a budget on youth players. Time will obviously tell, but I can’t help but think if fat badger wanted Gallagher, Eze and Solanke as reported all of a sudden the team looks more complete.

Not saying that we should have got all three but the money spent on other places could have been directed to two out of the three mentioned above.

 

[braineclipse]

I personally would not compare Gray and Odobert. From my perspective, Gray was an excellent independant choice aligned with development for the future, and was a fabulous opportunity. Similar to Bergvall, albeit Gray was always going to have a more seamless transition due to LUFC experience. An excellent purchase both as a talent but also an 'asset'.
I always saw Odobert as a 'short-list option' choice. I don't compare the two personally.

Interesting. Perhaps my thinking on this is a bit simplistic...

With add ons the fee for Odobert was reportedly 30m, 25m up front. For a player with PL experience, but not a proven player as such. I would be surprised if we paid that kind of money for a player if he wasn't seen at least as a somewhat special talent aligned with development for the future.

We also saw Ange pretty much throw him in directly when signed, to me indicating that Ange really rates the kid.

We paid more for him than what Nusa went for, another imo rather special talent that we had interest in.

I guess my opinion is more if Odobert is just in a different category to Gray with regards to potential and how well he fits into what the club wants going forward Odobert as a signing makes little sense to me.

 

[billyiddo]

Don't know why Odobert should be considered a shortlist punt - he looks every bit an Ange style winger and from the little we have seen he looks ready to make an impact as a rotational/back up option to Son off the left. I don't recall any other LWF being targeted or linked in the summer that would suggest he was not top of the list for that position.

Maybe missing out on Neto for the right hand side freed up a bit of budget to pursue this transfer (which may have been on the back burner given Burnley are in the champ and could have waited till next summer?) maybe there was money to do both? But given they play on opposite wings i don't see them as 1st priority vs 2nd priority (or lower) for the same position, if that's the angle? - I think we'll still be in for a RWF in the coming windows.

 

[thfcsteff]

Interesting. Perhaps my thinking on this is a bit simplistic...

With add ons the fee for Odobert was reportedly 30m, 25m up front. For a player with PL experience, but not a proven player as such. I would be surprised if we paid that kind of money for a player if he wasn't seen at least as a somewhat special talent aligned with development for the future.

We also saw Ange pretty much throw him in directly when signed, to me indicating that Ange really rates the kid.

We paid more for him than what Nusa went for, another imo rather special talent that we had interest in.

I guess my opinion is more if Odobert is just in a different category to Gray with regards to potential and how well he fits into what the club wants going forward Odobert as a signing makes little sense to me.

We shall see. All opinions my friend, non are simplistic at all ...I think Nusa was a great fit for us at 20 mill and still wonder why it didn't happen (maybe the failed medical is true?).

Don't know why Odobert should be considered a shortlist punt - he looks every bit an Ange style winger and from the little we have seen he looks ready to make an impact as a rotational/back up option to Son off the left. I don't recall any other LWF being targeted or linked in the summer that would suggest he was not top of the list for that position.

Maybe missing out on Neto for the right hand side freed up a bit of budget to pursue this transfer (which may have been on the back burner given Burnley are in the champ and could have waited till next summer?) maybe there was money to do both? But given they play on opposite wings i don't see them as 1st priority vs 2nd priority (or lower) for the same position, if that's the angle? - I think we'll still be in for a RWF in the coming windows.

I think not signing Neto was a major ingredient in this signing, yes. We already committed to Werner on the left, as Sonny's back-up I presume albeit they play the position differently of course. So Neto would've been the Johnson option (again, I am not a huge fan of his but Ange apparently was). Odobert is versatile I suppose in the sense he can play either wing. He just measures up as the sort of signing we tend to make these days. Mid-range fee, young, should hold his value if we want to cut our losses, and not too expensive in the wage dept. When it works out we look like ledges of course. And maybe he will!!! Time will tell I suppose...FWIW Moore's rapid ascent has been both excellent and encouraging!

 

[Bishop]

A great conversation to have IMO, because I disagree ...I think against Ipswich we needed our leader group to step up and take charge of the game. They didn't. Perhaps it was a learning curve, but had we had (for example) a player such as Gallagher who drives and harries and carries and drives again, that energy and desire to win might well have been the difference/catalyst in a game such as Ipswich. Who knows, it's a fun thing to discuss though.

Interesting Gallagher wasn't able to do that for a Chelsea last season. I don't think you can ever put such weight on a single player, especially one who isn't a game breaker, one that doesn't have a any special attributes to change a game. It needed to be as said come from a number of players, whether that was in the starting lineup or from the bench.