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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

You could do a similar level of appraisal for a cherry-picked list of players from most other teams and end up with the same outlook. Most transfers are from lesser teams to bigger teams - your post means nothing.

Go back to our squad at the start of 14/15 for example...

Not really. Yes I could compare us to the past and you would be right, because historically this has always been our modus operandi and always will be under these owners. Buy cheap, either in wages or transfer fees - and that is more easily done buying mid-table players.

But if I were to pick an Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool or City 11 at random, how many players do you think would have come from mid-table or lower-table, Championship, etc., versus other top clubs?

Again, not saying players from mid-table clubs stay mid-table players. But they have to show that they're better than the level they came from. The majority of our lot so far, haven't.
 
Not really. Yes I could compare us to the past and you would be right, because historically this has always been our modus operandi and always will be under these owners. Buy cheap, either in wages or transfer fees - and that is more easily done buying mid-table players.

But if I were to pick an Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool or City 11 at random, how many players do you think would have come from mid-table or lower-table, Championship, etc., versus other top clubs?

Again, not saying players from mid-table clubs stay mid-table players. But they have to show that they're better than the level they came from. The majority of our lot so far, haven't.

Cherry picking some players off hand from Arsenal of the last couple of seasons

GK... from Brentford

LB... from Celtic

2 CBs from mid table France

RB from Brighton

CM from West Ham (lol)

Winger from their academy

Other winger from some no mark Brazilian club

CF Chelsea reject
 
Cherry picking some players off hand from Arsenal of the last couple of seasons

GK... from Brentford

LB... from Celtic

2 CBs from mid table France

RB from Brighton

CM from West Ham (lol)

Winger from their academy

Other winger from some no mark Brazilian club

CF Chelsea reject

Pick a full 11 for comparison. In fact, pick the starting 11 they beat United with.

Raya - Brentford
Kiwior - no idea where he came from
Saliba - St.Etienne
Timber - Ajax
Zinchenko - Emirates Marketing Project
Partey - Atletico Madrid
Rice - West Ham
Odegaard - Real Madrid
Martinelli - no idea
Havertz - Chelsea
Saka - academy

You don't see the difference? Five of that starting eleven came from clubs with higher standards than the clubs we pick our players from - Chelsea, Real, Atletico, City, Ajax.

Those players also cost more money, in wages and transfer fees.

And therein lies the rub, and the reason for our transfer strategy failing compared to theirs generally succeeding. Yes, they also buy mid-table players. But when they need expensive players from top sides, they go get them.

We almost exclusively buy cheap players from mid-table sides, either wage-wise or fee-wise. And it shows. We need all of them to step up a level to allow us to overperform - when they doesn't happen, we look like the sum of our parts, i.e, a bunch of Forest, Bournemouth, Leicester, etc. players.
 
Pick a full 11 for comparison. In fact, pick the starting 11 they beat United with.

Raya - Brentford
Kiwior - no idea where he came from
Saliba - St.Etienne
Timber - Ajax
Zinchenko - Emirates Marketing Project
Partey - Atletico Madrid
Rice - West Ham
Odegaard - Real Madrid
Martinelli - no idea
Havertz - Chelsea
Saka - academy

You don't see the difference? Five of that starting eleven came from clubs with higher standards than the clubs we pick our players from - Chelsea, Real, Atletico, City, Ajax.

Those players also cost more money, in wages and transfer fees.

And therein lies the rub, and the reason for our transfer strategy failing compared to theirs generally succeeding. Yes, they also buy mid-table players. But when they need expensive players from top sides, they go get them.

We almost exclusively buy cheap players from mid-table sides, either wage-wise or fee-wise. And it shows. We need all of them to step up a level to allow us to overperform - when they doesn't happen, we look like the sum of our parts, i.e, a bunch of Forest, Bournemouth, Leicester, etc. players.
This is part of the problem of the buy for the future model. For example, the strong rumour this summer was sell Richie to Saudi and buy Neto. Richie REFUSES to go, Cheat$ki offer an extra 15 million quid for Neto and we end up with Odobert, who explodes fairly immediately. So we buy for the future, Ange rotates poorly and like Conte basically trusts 14 or 15 players, his style puts high stress leading to more injuries and then his lack of flexibility gives us wildly swinging results and performances.

Which requires patience. Which is not in deep supply amongst supporters or owners. And here we are again as 'a crisis club'.
 
For every city there is a:

Brighton
Palace
Ipswich
Fulham

And that is just recently.

gonads. fudge off
It's a weird one, in a really weird season.
Two games ago - we were three points from being third. One different result and it's a completely different picture.

Now games later - we're the same distance from third as we are seventeenth!

The lge is starting to take shape now - Xmas will determine it.
My concern with Ange is that his tactics always work against lower quality, because an opening will always present itself - you then just have to take it.
The PL is so tight and even now across appx 15 teams that have to earn and create openings - probing and waiting is no longer enough.
 
Pick a full 11 for comparison. In fact, pick the starting 11 they beat United with.

Raya - Brentford
Kiwior - no idea where he came from
Saliba - St.Etienne
Timber - Ajax
Zinchenko - Emirates Marketing Project
Partey - Atletico Madrid
Rice - West Ham
Odegaard - Real Madrid
Martinelli - no idea
Havertz - Chelsea
Saka - academy

You don't see the difference? Five of that starting eleven came from clubs with higher standards than the clubs we pick our players from - Chelsea, Real, Atletico, City, Ajax.

Those players also cost more money, in wages and transfer fees.

And therein lies the rub, and the reason for our transfer strategy failing compared to theirs generally succeeding. Yes, they also buy mid-table players. But when they need expensive players from top sides, they go get them.

We almost exclusively buy cheap players from mid-table sides, either wage-wise or fee-wise. And it shows. We need all of them to step up a level to allow us to overperform - when they doesn't happen, we look like the sum of our parts, i.e, a bunch of Forest, Bournemouth, Leicester, etc. players.

The main difference I can see is that you set out to denigrate our players to a level that you didn't with Arsenal's - the players they signed in that XI you posted that had big club experience were all 'rejects' at that level and I'm sure it would have been mentioned if there was a similar player in our ranks, (i wonder how you would have described Werner for example...) our younger players are 'kids' but no mention of that for their equivalents - at least try and be even handed, if you can't then your point isn't really strong enough by itself.
 
Ange is super lucky that we didn't get decimated tonight. A 5 or 6 goal loss would have put him in super shaky terrain, IMO. And we will see how the squad reacts after this.
 
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Time and fudging timne again we hire managers to do a job. THEIR job. We know what they do. In Mourinho and Conte's cases, we knew. In Ange's case, we knew. Ange has never been a pragmatist. He is what he says he is. Yet here we are, amidst an injury crisis, piling on him solely.
It's ludicrous really,
Of course he shares some responsibility but the idea that he is going to change the way we play for a few weeks/until we have more bodies fit and available, is ludicrous.

IF we want to dive into the blame game (I'll leave the obvious part of this equation which has resulted in 12 managers over 25 years) then spare a blame-directed thought at the football directorship of Munn and Lange, who obviously endorsed Ange and supported his philosophy, to the extent that our entire fudging CLUB plays this way, starting in the youngest academy sides!!!!
As a CLUB we committed to it! So it isn't quite as easy as, "Tell you what lads, couple of injuries, obviously you're a bit of a knacker in regards to who you're replacing so tell ya what, we'll go 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3, sit deep and hit 'em on the break; we'll be a counter-attacking side for a bit now. Fraser, welly it long a good dozen more times too while we're at it!"
Imagine the message THAT sends. The ramifications. It's about a lot more than the 95 minutes of senior professionals showing up/having enough senior professionals TO show up.

Again, I will go on record as saying that I am FIRMLY SUPPORTIVE OF THE DIRECTION because I long ago GAVE UP on us doing it any other way. Levy will NOT take that quick path (y'know, Solankes and Netos and Eze's in the SAME window - I am NOT judging, those are just facts). So I am OK with the learning curve.
But that means I'd like to see Lankshear given more, Archie in midfield, perhaps Dorrington at CB. I'll tell you, if Ange did that, there'd be anarchy in the stands because we do not have a spine of top core professionals strong enough to bear the weight of that responsibility. IF we were to take that approach wholeheartedly, IMO we will need a couple of Naybet/Davids-like signings to almost coach players on the pitch. You know, the Kimmich's of the world when they're a year older. OR we just have to trust the manager to fashion the squad which can be great in 18 months. But if we do that, there will be more ugly times.

I sadly do NOT think people have the stomach or patience for it. And when the moaning gets louder, when the press start whipping it up, when every fan/manager interaction is posted worldwide, when everyone bangs on about the stuffing we'll get on Sunday, well the trigger finger at the top gets itchy. @Bedfordspurs I am not going orange green or whatever the colours are mate, I am just saying what I am seeing happening. It's sad and feels almost inevitable.

HERE'S where Munn, Lange, and perhaps Levy can score a major fudging win with me. Show some long-term confidence in the direction they have ALL endorsed with Ange and his way of playing. Be brave. GIVE him a goalkeeper who can use his feet in January, GIVE him a full-back he wants to use, GIVE him a LCB, and GET him a winger! Again, I don't see it happening BUT I am up for the shock...
 
But that means I'd like to see Lankshear given more, Archie in midfield, perhaps Dorrington at CB. I'll tell you, if Ange did that, there'd be anarchy in the stands because we do not have a spine of top core professionals strong enough to bear the weight of that responsibility. IF we were to take that approach wholeheartedly, IMO we will need a couple of Naybet/Davids-like signings to almost coach players on the pitch.

It get what you mean mate, but it's grimly amusing to me that 25 years after this lot took over, we're right back to sitting in 10th wondering if we need to sign washed up old pros to give a spine to a dirt cheap, young side.

This is their model, this is what it will always be z stadium or no stadium, Ange or Jol. This is ENIC's happy place.

HERE'S where Munn, Lange, and perhaps Levy can score a major fudging win with me. Show some long-term confidence in the direction they have ALL endorsed with Ange and his way of playing. Be brave. GIVE him a goalkeeper who can use his feet in January, GIVE him a full-back he wants to use, GIVE him a LCB, and GET him a winger! Again, I don't see it happening BUT I am up for the shock...

Props to you for having hope, even though both you and I know this will never, ever happen under these owners. Ever.

Part of the blame though, may have to fall on Munn, Lange et al - the backing cast we have put in place, again I suspect, for cheap. What were Lange's great accomplishments when he came here? What were Munn's? And does that have a role in the abysmal summer transfer window we had?

We had a good thing going with Paratici - shopping in markets we usually didn't shop in. Rather than replace him with like for like when he was banned, we went for some rando Aston Villa had already replaced and were more than happy to let go. In positions like sporting director, CEO et al, your rolodexes matter - who you worked for, what your bona fides are, equally so. Were Lange and Munn the best choices here? I don't know, but I have to consider the possibility that they're just like the players Levy buys - they only work because they fit his vision for how to do things.
 
When did we start becoming so entitled and mean at Spurs? Give the chap time to build. He has not even been here 2 full seasons. We insult l'arse but they got it right by being patient. I see some calling him a fraud! Really, Ange a fraud? Someone who has won trophies elsewhere joins Spurs who haven't won trophies in 16 years and he is the fraud? We need to take a long hard look at ourselves and the players. We also need to stop overrating our squad. This is Bournemouth at their ground. They have beaten solid teams this season! We lost. Yes it is painful but support and move instead of insulting the manager. Change takes time and it can be painful. Hopefully we can improve the squad in January.
 
The mistake the club has made is entrusting this phase of our rebuild to someone who is essentially a novice at this level of the game - it was a gamble that hasn't (as of yet) paid off. As I said earlier whatever anyone thinks of our players we are not mid table on paper, even if we were there are plenty of teams at that level that manage to turn up and play to a game plan week in week out but then ultimately suffer due to a lack of quality- that's not us, today was a group of players who did not have one clue what they were supposed to be doing. That is on one man
A novice? Ange, a novice? If they actually spoke of you like this, I am sure you would be personally insulted.
 
When did we start becoming so entitled and mean at Spurs? Give the chap time to build. He has not even been here 2 full seasons. We insult l'arse but they got it right by being patient. I see some calling him a fraud! Really, Ange a fraud? Someone who has won trophies elsewhere joins Spurs who haven't won trophies in 16 years and he is the fraud? We need to take a long hard look at ourselves and the players. We also need to stop overrating our squad. This is Bournemouth at their ground. They have beaten solid teams this season! We lost. Yes it is painful but support and move instead of insulting the manager. Change takes time and it can be painful. Hopefully we can improve the squad in January.
Yeah mate I’ve called him a fraud of a manager. I don’t see an intelligent manager in him and I certainly don’t see him as an expert of his trade to warrant sticking with him long term.

He’s shown nothing that he can get results consistently with the players that are better than they are performing at … that comes from the manager.

Get a better manager in like iriola and when he has a wobble or two more than happy to back him. The fat badger has done nothing to prove his worth or this level of backing. We are sleep walking into the bottom half.

We are looking for a manager that can make Levys stupid transfer strategy work, not a manager that exposes it.
 
He’s a novice in elite league football is that not correct?
No that isn't correct. Celtic is there and I am sure he was in the Champions League with them. Also this is someone who has been nominated for World Manager of the year and won Manager of the Year last season.

I don't think Spurs have the team that we need to accomplish what fans think should happen. Change is not a 1 or 2 year thing. It genuinely takes time and we really need to maintain focus on the outcome and acknowledging that some days would be like this. Case in point the late 90s and 2000s.
 
Can’t it be both? Ultimately they don’t seem like they know what to do half the time and that’s on the manager
I am reminded that players when they become coaches and managers then realise why certain managers become frustrated with players. It can be both but I would look more to players as they are the ones who should look to win their duels. That attitude should be personal not based on a manager's prodding.
 
It get what you mean mate, but it's grimly amusing to me that 25 years after this lot took over, we're right back to sitting in 10th wondering if we need to sign washed up old pros to give a spine to a dirt cheap, young side.

This is their model, this is what it will always be z stadium or no stadium, Ange or Jol. This is ENIC's happy place.



Props to you for having hope, even though both you and I know this will never, ever happen under these owners. Ever.

Part of the blame though, may have to fall on Munn, Lange et al
- the backing cast we have put in place, again I suspect, for cheap. What were Lange's great accomplishments when he came here? What were Munn's? And does that have a role in the abysmal summer transfer window we had?

We had a good thing going with Paratici - shopping in markets we usually didn't shop in. Rather than replace him with like for like when he was banned, we went for some rando Aston Villa had already replaced and were more than happy to let go. In positions like sporting director, CEO et al, your rolodexes matter - who you worked for, what your bona fides are, equally so. Were Lange and Munn the best choices here? I don't know, but I have to consider the possibility that they're just like the players Levy buys - they only work because they fit his vision for how to do things.

I'm not sure I have any deep deep hope more than I possess the normal levels any supporter does. I suppose more than anything, I think it is important that people understand the full scope of what we have.

And yes, that was exactly what I was saying (you did see that paragraph I wrote about Munn, Lange, etc?). Ange does what he does, someone hired him and agreed with the direction. To heap all the blame on Ange is a load of fudging toss IMO.
 
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I am reminded that players when they become coaches and managers then realise why certain managers become frustrated with players. It can be both but I would look more to players as they are the ones who should look to win their duels. That attitude should be personal not based on a manager's prodding.
So you ever listen to ex footballers who win always attribute it to the managers over players.

Whatever your opinion of him as a manager the facts are that he can’t seem to get a tune out of these players.

And as for your post about managing Celtic and in the champions league … that’s like me lauding the manager of Young boys in the champions league
 
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