Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[glorygloryeze]

Mate, people are trying to engage you seriously

- No need to be snarky with the "if I was an ambitious owner", Levy/ENIC are, they have hired the best managers in the world, they pay some of best management salaries in the world, Poch, Jose, Conte (how much higher were you going to go? and I can just imagine your reaction if we went for Chelsea's manager?), they tried for Slot, think Amorim was in conversation as well, Nuno in hindsight wasn't the brick decision fans decided to make out. That is a different conversation than the self funded squad concerns.

I'll try not to get too much into this now, but..my definition of ambitious owners would be those walk the walk AND talk the talk: no point hiring managers like Jose and Conte and not backing it up with the willingness to spend in a way that THEY are used to enjoying...hiring them and then acting like they still had a 'moulder' in Poch etc just comes across as half-assed and kind of 'winging it' if im honest. But, that is for another time..

- He got backed in summer, can we stop this brick? because you don't like the players Ange choose, or the the prioritization he made (everyone has a finite budget), does not equal he wasn't backed. Less than 5 days ago in a presser he was clear, he could have got another established player or two, but it would have meant potentially missing out on long term talent like Gray. His must have was Solanke, he got it.

Let's compare with our nearest and dearest: when Arteta hilariously was pipped for 4th by us in that first part of Conte's tenure in that summer check who they went out and bought and then compare this last summer gone after Ange similarly missed out of 4th by a small margin...

To be serious with your questions

- The decisions to prioritize signings like Gray, Bergvall, Yang, commitments to Moore, Vuskovich to me always said this wasn't "for this season"
- The club (finally) has realized the squad needs an entire rebuild, we are about 2 years into, probably at least another 2 windows to see the full outcome
- Ange is a complete system manager (somewhat like Conte, his fudging midfield could only work with Bentancur), until you have the full team the results can be worse than sum (see Pep as ultimate example)
- These owners don't fudging care about egg on their face, they will fire managers (BMJ, Poch, Jose before a final), whenever they want.

To what I agree with/speculation

- Normally a Spurs manager in bottom half at Christmas would be gone, so why is he still here? 1/Still in all the cups (I think it's a big part of what's keeping him in role, and see second point), 2/Our best games show a ceiling we haven't seen in a long time, mutli-goal wins away against City, United, Villa, etc show when it works

- The bottom isn't endless though, in my opinion he's probably got until end of season, but stay in bottom half until February, will change.
- Ange also has to be telling the club internally a different story than his press conferences, conceding 6 or 7 goals is a very quick route to job loss at Spurs, he has to be convincing someone that there is adjustments, that in future we will learn.

Personally, the club has been extremely patient with Ange, it's up to him now to ensure the season doesn't keep unravelling, if it does and he loses his job it is on him, 100%. I still think January window will be an interesting insight into how far the club still believes in him.

It's interesting. Given the spending prioritizations you highlight, the question then becomes what was the target for this season, league position wise? Was it make sure not to fall out of Europa? Was it anything as long as not lower than 12th as long as you go deep and all the cups and win one?

On one hand i feel Ange is under-performing given what he has at his disposal but then is it fair to expect him to maintain even top 8 given what we did/didn't do in the summer transfer window?


I do agree if he is sacked, a large part of the responsibility will be on Ange himself.


Will wait and see re January transfer activity: personally, i can't see the club doing much in the window but you never know

 

[monkeybarry]

We shouldn’t be having these decisions hinge on 2 or 3 games in my view. That’s the very essence of knee jerking.

If they believe Ange is the man or could be the man, give him until the end of the season at least come what may.

And that's the crux of my question - do you mean that? Does that include finishing 16th? Does it include relegation? Is it really "come what may"? Or is there a limit? (Everyone has avoided answering this - maybe you'll oblige me?!)

I'm not basing my view on three games - I'm looking for something in those three to signal change. The issues extend beyond the injury crisis. I'm looking for reasons to get back behind buying into what he brings. I wish I could see some - but I'm struggling.

I'm not against giving him to the end of season either - but not "at all costs"

 

[DeanoAustin]

And that's the crux of my question - do you mean that? Does that include finishing 16th? Does it include relegation? Is it really "come what may"? Or is there a limit? (Everyone has avoided answering this - maybe you'll oblige me?!)

I'm not basing my view on three games - I'm looking for something in those three to signal change. The issues extend beyond the injury crisis. I'm looking for reasons to get back behind buying into what he brings. I wish I could see some - but I'm struggling.

I'm not against giving him to the end of season either - but not "at all costs"

I think the red line for me is if we were in serious danger of relegation and it looked like the players weren't playing for him. If that happened, his position would be untenable.

Other than that, whether he finishes 5th or 15th, I say just give him the season and, if he finishes in the upper part of that range, he should get next season too.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think the red line for me is if we were in serious danger of relegation and it looked like the players weren't playing for him. If that happened, his position would be untenable.

Other than that, whether he finishes 5th or 15th, I say just give him the season and, if he finishes in the upper part of that range, he should get next season too.

Fully agree
We are nowhere near relegation and wing be anywhere near at the end imo

 

[DeanoAustin]

Fully agree
We are nowhere near relegation and wing be anywhere near at the end imo

Yeah I don't think there's a chance that happens to be honest. But that's the only circumstance under which I'd fire him. I can't stomach the thought of going on the managerial merry go round again especially for such little chance of upside this season no matter who we get.

We've bet on this guy - let's give him a very fair crack of the whip.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah I don't think there's a chance that happens to be honest. But that's the only circumstance under which I'd fire him. I can't stomach the thought of going on the managerial merry go round again especially for such little chance of upside this season no matter who we get.

We've bet on this guy - let's give him a very fair crack of the whip.

Form the very very brief noises I’ve heard off mates who had an ear to the ground no one is expecting much movement in January
But the Brentford guy I know did say that Tottenham now don’t leak anything
I think it may be a double deal to bring in David and Gomes from Lille before they leave on a free this summer. But that’s just gut feel and speculation on my part

 

[glasgowspur]

And that's the crux of my question - do you mean that? Does that include finishing 16th? Does it include relegation? Is it really "come what may"? Or is there a limit? (Everyone has avoided answering this - maybe you'll oblige me?!)

I'm not basing my view on three games - I'm looking for something in those three to signal change. The issues extend beyond the injury crisis. I'm looking for reasons to get back behind buying into what he brings. I wish I could see some - but I'm struggling.

I'm not against giving him to the end of season either - but not "at all costs"

Unanswerable questions are annoying, I keep asking what would you consider to be success for the club.
Everyone has their thoughts and it feels to me that it changes from week to week.

 

[Gazza]

Were you as supportive towards Nino, conte etc? Fair crack at the whip etc?

 

[Raziel]

Ok thanks.

How is what Russell Martin tried any different to what Ange is trying with us? You could argue we don't have the players to do what Ange wants too..

Can i then ask you to elaborate a bit more on the other two: in PL terms, what is Ange showing that Roberto Martiniz and Brendan Rodgers can't/couldn't?

Lets break it down. Ange has lots of tactics (if they are effective is a different question, but to pretend there are none is little disingenuous)

- Formation wise, we start in 4-3-3 out of position (we have seen some slight variations), in attack we move to 2-3-5
- How that works is the 2 FB's move into midfield, and 2 midfielders move forward into front line.
- Those two 8's are big part of system (when Maddison & Deki work)
- Basically the core of the system is creating overloads (outnumber the opposition)
- Because that is trying to get 5+ players in opposition box, to keep the gaps between lines to a minimum, we end up with a high line
- We press high to get turnovers closer to opposition goal
- We generally are a possession side (we want it, even though we can play without it and argumentatively we sometimes play better without)
- Some of the other components of the system is creating width by pinning the wingers wide.
- System relies on crosses from wide, with two core passes, 1/Strait across the box, expectation being opposite winger arrives at the far post. 2/Cut back to center of box for CF to get tap in.

What is genuinely different in Ange's system (not just a copy of Pep)
- Player freedom, lots of systems allow players to swap sides, not a lot allow a CB/FB to end up in opposition box
- The 2-3-5 congests the middle, so it tactically it is supposed to force the counter to go wide (longer route)
- High energy system, part of the "inevitability" of the system is the relentless nature, hence even games where we play well, dominate opposition, it can take until 2nd half to tire out opposition into mistakes
The system creates certain obvious vulnerabilities, so we have to look at how it's expected to deal with it
1. High line leaves space behind, two counters, first we play the offside trap, second we force (see point about congestion in middle) opponent out wide, and with pacey CB (VDV) and FBs, we assume recovery advantage.
2. Players moving into space in front of them (see VDV's runs or Udogie in box) leaves gaps behind them that would allow direct counter if possession is lost, hence other players need see that gap and cover, best examples are Maddison going into 6 role to cover Udogie gap.
3. Players can get in each others way, this creates less space to work in and creates gaps elsewhere

So to your questions of do we have the players to do it?
- VDV is a big part of that recovery system, but so are others (see next point)
- High energy requires bigger squad, more rotation, fresh legs. Having the FB's/Wingers that are leggy means chances of them helping defensively/reacting to counter is less.
- In my opinion, the squad (even fit) has a few problems, 1/Right balance in midfield (mix of 6 & 8), probably with the fact that we don't have a truly DM type 6, 2/Lack of variation in wingers, Son, Johnson, Werner are similar style (if not quality), all prefer to run into space and receive ball with them facing opposition goal. This was where Wilson was supposed to an option, I think this kills us against teams that sit back). Backups to GK, LCB/LB, RW & CF are all options

I don't see (sorry to beat dead horse) any of those managers absolutely destroying good teams on the best days, Ange's system (when it works) seems to have a higher ceiling. Not to be controversial (and no I don't want to debate it) but a certain popular ex manager would win a very high percentage of our games against bottom 8, but not as great against top 4, then when we won (yes, exceptions), would be 1-2 goal margin. Ange can beat a top side 4-0 (yes, can also lose 6-3)

Very little of that in my opinion is similar to what Martin, Martinez, Rodgers try to do. Happy to detail more if anyone thinks it's worth the conversation.

 

[Raziel]

It's interesting. Given the spending prioritizations you highlight, the question then becomes what was the target for this season, league position wise? Was it make sure not to fall out of Europa? Was it anything as long as not lower than 12th as long as you go deep and all the cups and win one?

On one hand i feel Ange is under-performing given what he has at his disposal but then is it fair to expect him to maintain even top 8 given what we did/didn't do in the summer transfer window?

I do agree if he is sacked, a large part of the responsibility will be on Ange himself.

Will wait and see re January transfer activity: personally, i can't see the club doing much in the window but you never know

That's it, we don't know

- If the club expected we were going to push on from 5th position, this season is a disaster
- If the club had a real conversation, said we are going to have some regression, partially because of the youth investment, so target is less (lets say any European spot), very different

Our big issue is most people will obviously evaluate ENIC on behavior over a period of 23 years, is that really indicative of what will happen here? or has the changes in structure in last 3-4 years really equated to something different?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Were you as supportive towards Nino, conte etc? Fair crack at the whip etc?

No, I wasn’t. I never believed Nuno was more than a stop gap and thought his position became untenable after the United game.

I wanted Jose gone after the 1-3 in early 2021 v Liverpool.

Conte…I’d have kept him but he made his own position untenable. He had to go after Southampton.

So why am I backing Ange. I feel more connection to the club under him. I feel his style of play is what we’re about as a club and have been for as long as I’ve supported. He’s doing “Tottenham on steroids” admittedly.

I’ve come out of most games, yesterday included, feeling like I’ve seen a good game of football. I go into games having no clue what’s going to happen other than it will be action packed. It’s uncomfortable but exhilarating.

I remember coming out of Brighton when we won 2-1 under Stellini and we got dingdonged. Well and truly. I remember feeling sickened by us that day. Or Conte v Milan at home when, chasing a 1-0 deficit, he wouldn’t allow anyone but Kane over the halfway line out of possession. That’s not Tottenham.

Football is about more than results for me. That seems a bit mad to say but I love Ange’s principles and how he views the game. That buys him more time from me.

And…the last few years have taught me that no matter who we get, the result will probably not be too much different. We had two absolute winners of managers and they failed here in terms of delivering silverware or sustained success. Why twist again now before the end of the season? What will we gain?

 

[Gazza]

No, I wasn’t. I never believed Nuno was more than a stop gap and thought his position became untenable after the United game.

I wanted Jose gone after the 1-3 in early 2021 v Liverpool.

Conte…I’d have kept him but he made his own position untenable. He had to go after Southampton.

So why am I backing Ange. I feel more connection to the club under him. I feel his style of play is what we’re about as a club and have been for as long as I’ve supported. He’s doing “Tottenham on steroids” admittedly.

I’ve come out of most games, yesterday included, feeling like I’ve seen a good game of football. I go into games having no clue what’s going to happen other than it will be action packed. It’s uncomfortable but exhilarating.

I remember coming out of Brighton when we won 2-1 under Stellini and we got dingdonged. Well and truly. I remember feeling sickened by us that day. Or Conte v Milan at home when, chasing a 1-0 deficit, he wouldn’t allow anyone but Kane over the halfway line out of possession. That’s not Tottenham.

Football is about more than results for me. That seems a bit mad to say but I love Ange’s principles and how he views the game. That buys him more time from me.

And…the last few years have taught me that no matter who we get, the result will probably not be too much different. We had two absolute winners of managers and they failed here in terms of delivering silverware or sustained success. Why twist again now before the end of the season? What will we gain?

So after all of those emotions how would you feel if he got us relegated?

I appreciate your honesty with previous managers, to a degree I get it’s not going to get us any where sacking ange unless an ideal candidate is available or we are getting dingdonged every week …. Seems to be going that way.

However he doesn’t look like a long term manager looking at the overall results, I find him annoying, and no I disagree with the results, we provably wouldn’t have lost this many under a tactician.

He is Aussie ardiles .. I actually cannot take how amateur his football is. My opinion

 

[metalgear]

levy has always said that the club belongs in europe - obviously money, and he's not wrong.
i think levy will sack ange if he doesn't achieve it - more so because ange's way is attracting bad press for him and it weakens his bargaining position with potential investors.

That's it, we don't know

- If the club expected we were going to push on from 5th position, this season is a disaster
- If the club had a real conversation, said we are going to have some regression, partially because of the youth investment, so target is less (lets say any European spot), very different

Our big issue is most people will obviously evaluate ENIC on behavior over a period of 23 years, is that really indicative of what will happen here? or has the changes in structure in last 3-4 years really equated to something different?

 

[Mikey10]

Yeah I don't think there's a chance that happens to be honest.

You’ve gone and done it now.

levy has always said that the club belongs in europe - obviously money, and he's not wrong.
i think levy will sack ange if he doesn't achieve it - more so because ange's way is attracting bad press for him and it weakens his bargaining position with potential investors.

It’s absolutely all about money. If we’re out of both cups and still halfway down the league he’ll be gone sharpish.

 

[Raziel]

Usually are terrible but the point stands

 

[glorygloryeze]

Lets break it down. Ange has lots of tactics (if they are effective is a different question, but to pretend there are none is little disingenuous)

- Formation wise, we start in 4-3-3 out of position (we have seen some slight variations), in attack we move to 2-3-5
- How that works is the 2 FB's move into midfield, and 2 midfielders move forward into front line.
- Those two 8's are big part of system (when Maddison & Deki work)
- Basically the core of the system is creating overloads (outnumber the opposition)
- Because that is trying to get 5+ players in opposition box, to keep the gaps between lines to a minimum, we end up with a high line
- We press high to get turnovers closer to opposition goal
- We generally are a possession side (we want it, even though we can play without it and argumentatively we sometimes play better without)
- Some of the other components of the system is creating width by pinning the wingers wide.
- System relies on crosses from wide, with two core passes, 1/Strait across the box, expectation being opposite winger arrives at the far post. 2/Cut back to center of box for CF to get tap in.

What is genuinely different in Ange's system (not just a copy of Pep)
- Player freedom, lots of systems allow players to swap sides, not a lot allow a CB/FB to end up in opposition box
- The 2-3-5 congests the middle, so it tactically it is supposed to force the counter to go wide (longer route)
- High energy system, part of the "inevitability" of the system is the relentless nature, hence even games where we play well, dominate opposition, it can take until 2nd half to tire out opposition into mistakes
The system creates certain obvious vulnerabilities, so we have to look at how it's expected to deal with it
1. High line leaves space behind, two counters, first we play the offside trap, second we force (see point about congestion in middle) opponent out wide, and with pacey CB (VDV) and FBs, we assume recovery advantage.
2. Players moving into space in front of them (see VDV's runs or Udogie in box) leaves gaps behind them that would allow direct counter if possession is lost, hence other players need see that gap and cover, best examples are Maddison going into 6 role to cover Udogie gap.
3. Players can get in each others way, this creates less space to work in and creates gaps elsewhere

So to your questions of do we have the players to do it?
- VDV is a big part of that recovery system, but so are others (see next point)
- High energy requires bigger squad, more rotation, fresh legs. Having the FB's/Wingers that are leggy means chances of them helping defensively/reacting to counter is less.
- In my opinion, the squad (even fit) has a few problems, 1/Right balance in midfield (mix of 6 & 8), probably with the fact that we don't have a truly DM type 6, 2/Lack of variation in wingers, Son, Johnson, Werner are similar style (if not quality), all prefer to run into space and receive ball with them facing opposition goal. This was where Wilson was supposed to an option, I think this kills us against teams that sit back). Backups to GK, LCB/LB, RW & CF are all options

I don't see (sorry to beat dead horse) any of those managers absolutely destroying good teams on the best days, Ange's system (when it works) seems to have a higher ceiling. Not to be controversial (and no I don't want to debate it) but a certain popular ex manager would win a very high percentage of our games against bottom 8, but not as great against top 4, then when we won (yes, exceptions), would be 1-2 goal margin. Ange can beat a top side 4-0 (yes, can also lose 6-3)

Very little of that in my opinion is similar to what Martin, Martinez, Rodgers try to do. Happy to detail more if anyone thinks it's worth the conversation.

Thanks, apprreciatre the detailed reply. I'm going to digest all that slowly and carefully. Might revisit and come back to you in the new year.


As i say, much appreciated

 

[glorygloryeze]

That's it, we don't know

- If the club expected we were going to push on from 5th position, this season is a disaster
- If the club had a real conversation, said we are going to have some regression, partially because of the youth investment, so target is less (lets say any European spot), very different

I guess, as you've essentially said, the reaction to if results continue to be bad this holiday period and January (plus any transfer activity in January) will tell us a lot...

Our big issue is most people will obviously evaluate ENIC on behavior over a period of 23 years, is that really indicative of what will happen here? or has the changes in structure in last 3-4 years really equated to something different?

I certainly cannot forget the history of the last 23 years; ultimately, the proof will be in the eating: actions speak louder than words or past history...

 

[DeanoAustin]

So after all of those emotions how would you feel if he got us relegated?

I appreciate your honesty with previous managers, to a degree I get it’s not going to get us any where sacking ange unless an ideal candidate is available or we are getting dingdonged every week …. Seems to be going that way.

However he doesn’t look like a long term manager looking at the overall results, I find him annoying, and no I disagree with the results, we provably wouldn’t have lost this many under a tactician.

He is Aussie ardiles .. I actually cannot take how amateur his football is. My opinion

I honestly don't think he'll get us relegated. There is no way we'd finish below Ipswich, Southampton and Leicester for example. If that looks like a possibility with 8 or 10 games to go, I'd fire him at that point.

My heart is ruling my head here, no doubt. But even my head is struggling to see the upside of sacking him.

What if he won us something? Imagine him being able to turn around and say "Maties, you took the tinkle when I said I win things in my second year. Who's laughing now? I've gone and done it my way". The belief that would bring to the squad. We win a trophy playing balls-out attacking football. The memes stop. The squad gets belief that maybe, just maybe this fella can bring sustained success. That this could be the first of many.

Bill Nic finished 18th in his first season. Can't imagine many thought he'd bring us the glory he did. Burkinshaw got us relegated early on in his reign. From second division to two FA Cups and a UEFA Cup - who'd have thought it? Maybe this is the dark before Ange leads us into the light.

I see the flaws. I have massive doubts he can do it. But I'm not so arrogant that I can't accept the possibility that I'm wrong and think it's worth that risk at this point of the season. And if I am wrong, I can't think of anyone I'd rather lead us to glory than a fella who embodies everything I love about the game and our traditions as a club.

 

[Gazza]

I honestly don't think he'll get us relegated. There is no way we'd finish below Ipswich, Southampton and Leicester for example. If that looks like a possibility with 8 or 10 games to go, I'd fire him at that point.

My heart is ruling my head here, no doubt. But even my head is struggling to see the upside of sacking him.

What if he won us something? Imagine him being able to turn around and say "Maties, you took the tinkle when I said I win things in my second year. Who's laughing now? I've gone and done it my way". The belief that would bring to the squad. We win a trophy playing balls-out attacking football. The memes stop. The squad gets belief that maybe, just maybe this fella can bring sustained success. That this could be the first of many.

Bill Nic finished 18th in his first season. Can't imagine many thought he'd bring us the glory he did. Burkinshaw got us relegated early on in his reign. From second division to two FA Cups and a UEFA Cup - who'd have thought it? Maybe this is the dark before Ange leads us into the light.

I see the flaws. I have massive doubts he can do it. But I'm not so arrogant that I can't accept the possibility that I'm wrong and think it's worth that risk at this point of the season. And if I am wrong, I can't think of anyone I'd rather lead us to glory than a fella who embodies everything I love about the game and our traditions as a club.

Fair enough you make a compelling case but a lot of ifs and buts … I just think he is flawed as a manager and he won’t get any help from the owners to make it happen. Spurs have turned me into a miserable middle aged man. I can’t even get excited about Ange.

I just think he is a flawed one dimensional manager who is getting schooled by any manager in the opposition with simple tactics. His in game management is poor to appalling. I hope we turn it around as ultimately whoever is in charge we all want success and good times. I hope that you are right and I’m eating humble pie.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Usually are terrible but the point stands

The fact that the ESPN crew (i don't mean Juls and Gab, as i think they are a cut above) can eloquently lay things out like that, then you know there really are basic issues...