Ange in or out?

[Finney Is Back]

completely agree, but therein lies the issue with folks crying about injuries. So called lesser managers and lesser teams can manage to deliver.

And my main gripe is people seem to absolve Ange of any responsibility for things. as i said before:

Can one of the Ange backers tell me why it will all be ok, where is the evidence it will all click and fall into place when we have players back when this didn't happen tail end of last year? I keep seeing "it's down to injuries" but where is the evidence of this, given we have lost games with near full strength teams out such as Ipswich at home? we had VDV missing and that was it, no one else. surely then we should win right? Brighton away? Leicester draw first game of the season? Giving Palace their first win?

Anyone who dare challenges Ange and his methods seems to be ostracised. Maybe i'm wrong and it will all come good. but there seems to be no self-reflection that Ange may not be the right guy.

Because the squad are not yet big enough, experienced enough and don't yet have the way of playing ingrained enough in them.

Our numbers early this season were really, really good - pretty much Liverpool good. Then the injuries started to happen and the small squad started to show.

Ipswich and Palace were games lost to teams fresh from a week off where we'd had to travel for a Thursday night game, again goes back to having a bigger, better squad of players used to playing the way the manager wants.

Next year our 17 to 19 year olds are a year older, a year more physically developed, have a year's more experience of playing at this level. Our players in their twenties have also had more time to get used to the system. (hopefully) we'll also address the weaknesses in the squad in the January and summer windows (I think we'll actually need 3 to 4 more windows to really be there instead of just 2 - especially if 80% of the players we purchase continue to be teenagers).

 

[Finney Is Back]

Absolutely. Good point.

But there was a risk, not a guarantee.
He got his run at Arsenal and looked good. Arsenal (a club that saw him everyday for ten years chose not to make him no.1).
Villa took a risk. I don't think think anyone thought he'd suddenly become one of the best in the world. Fair play to him - it's very impressive.
He also hasn't been tested across a season - it could have been very different.

The narrative by certain posters is that Kelleher is a shoe in superstar.
I would say he just as likely to be Martinez as he is Henderson. Henderson is a good GK - but not an upgrade on Vic. He may also become Butland.

As well as rather having Kelleher than Vicario, I'd also probably rather have Henderson than Vicario.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yes, totally agree. I think that was a mental thing too. We still tried to play, but the players didn't have the same conviction -- imo, because they started believing their hype way too early (that would have been our 6th win in a row had we finished the job)

Yes, we stopped playing with intensity. We started to go through the motions and make sideways and backwards passes. The players stopped running, not because they were tired but because they thought the game was won.

That was a game we easily could've gone 3 or 4 nil up in and easily won if we'd continued to play the same way as we were in the first half.

 

[johnola]

Exactly right.

We don't change for other teams. We play our way. People see it as stubbornness and take the tinkle (the same people were probably singing Angels when we beat Emirates Marketing Project). I see it as a crucial part of building a culture. There might a time where results do get too rough and the need for change is there...but for now he's doing the job he was brought into do. We needed a massive reset across the entire footballing setup. It's not going to be finished in 18 months.

I think this is very important and we should recognise the advances apparent from the outside even if we do not yet see the full benefit on the pitch.

- recruiting players very early
- stable coaching team
- consistent positive playbook

Whilst the following are areas that look lacking:

- medical prep and rehab/ sign off
- player leadership group personnel (Son)
- game management

So whilst we argue about the pros and cons of the purity of Postecoglu’s approach, we have had enough time to see through it and beyond the vagaries of results.

Overall I am still happy with our resilience even if we are languishing mid table, and on a human level I would like to see Ange benefit from the inevitable upturn in confidence and results.

 

[Kompakted]

Saudi Sportswashing Machine (a)
Liverpool (h) - LCup
Tamworth (a) - FACup
Arsenal (a)
Everton (a)
Hoffenheim (a) - EL
Leicester (h)
Elfsborg (h) - EL

You have to admit, it will be intriguing to see how Ange is perceived at the end of the month after this sequence of fixtures.

It could be anything from hero to P45 in my opinion.

Definitely a pivotal period. We are currently exactly 9 points off the top 4 and 9 points off the bottom 3. So which direction we move in, in terms of reigniting a push for European qualification or getting into a scrap to avoid being dragged into a relegation battle will as you say likely seal his ability to remain manager until the end of the season...

....this season has been so weird, wouldn't surprise me if the only league points were pick up in those fixtures is a historic 4-0 win at The Emirates.

 

[Diamond Lights]

How can Forest and Bournemouth be higher than us in the table? Because they're not playing a bunch of extra games midweek, every week so have far less injured and fatigued players.

Ah Carragher and Neville, those two guys who know everything about football. One has never managed and the other had one go at it, did terribly and was sacked.

As for losing 3 or our last 5 games. We lost to Chelsea away, Liverpool away and Emirates Marketing Project at home (a game that it seemed our manager was in a minority at Spurs in terms of wanting to win it).

We finished 5th in the league, which was probably a place higher than where we should've been.

So in your view has Ange done anything wrong or is he just a victim of bad luck?

 

[Kompakted]

So in your view has Ange done anything wrong or is he just a victim of bad luck?

Luck has its role in certain situations. Over the entire course of a season every club tends to finish where it deserves to based on both its recruitment (i.e. the quality and suitability of players taking to the field) and how well coached and drilled those players are. Injuries can be down to bad luck, but high volumes of stress fractures and muscle strains across two seasons inducate a coaching/training issue.

We can debate the quality of our recruitment and squad till the cows come home. Ultimately the head coach inputs into it as does the technical department. I imagine the final say comes down to a discussion between Ange and Lange with final approval now coming from Munn under the current structure.

We've had 3 windows for Ange to shape a squad he's happy to work with. It's an open ended process.

Ultimately teams like Forest are above us because they seem better coached and better drilled than we do. I don't see Forest fluffing chances because their CF and CM ended up crowded together in the same zone of the pitch during an attacking move and both went for the same ball and ran into each other. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to see on a Sunday afternoon down the park, not in the Premier League. So many of our goals conceded are just head-in-hands moments too. One pass from the back dissecting our entire defence, GK tinkling about at the back and losing the ball, daft penalties given away due to desperate lunges, free headers at the back post because our CB has ended up in midfield, our LB is in the CF position and our no. 10 is the one trying to mark their CF. These incidents happen regularly and say to me we don't work on this stuff enough in training and so in the frantic ebb and flow of PL matches players are put into positions where they don't instinctively know what to do and so try do the best decision they can come up with in that split second and mistakes occur regularly.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So in your view has Ange done anything wrong or is he just a victim of bad luck?

1. A victim of putting long term planning to try to do something significant over just trying to bumble along coming 5th to 7th most years and maybe hitting 4th every now and again in a really lucky year.

2. A victim of having a small, inexperienced squad (perhaps due to his planning being long-term)

3. Also a victim of bad luck with injuries (perhaps also due to item 1)

4. I don't think there is a manager in the World who has done everything perfectly. I think he could've played Spence a bit more in the PL and I think he shouldn't have risked both VDV and Romero against Chelsea. I'm not sure there's much else he could've done with the tools he's been given IMO.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Luck has its role in certain situations. Over the entire course of a season every club tends to finish where it deserves to based on both its recruitment (i.e. the quality and suitability of players taking to the field) and how well coached and drilled those players are. Injuries can be down to bad luck, but high volumes of stress fractures and muscle strains across two seasons inducate a coaching/training issue.

We can debate the quality of our recruitment and squad till the cows come home. Ultimately the head coach inputs into it as does the technical department. I imagine the final say comes down to a discussion between Ange and Lange with final approval now coming from Munn under the current structure.

We've had 3 windows for Ange to shape a squad he's happy to work with. It's an open ended process.

Ultimately teams like Forest are above us because they seem better coached and better drilled than we do. I don't see Forest fluffing chances because their CF and CM ended up crowded together in the same zone of the pitch during an attacking move and both went for the same ball and ran into each other. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to see on a Sunday afternoon down the park, not in the Premier League. So many of our goals conceded are just head-in-hands moments too. One pass from the back dissecting our entire defence, GK tinkling about at the back and losing the ball, daft penalties given away due to desperate lunges, free headers at the back post because our CB has ended up in midfield, our LB is in the CF position and our no. 10 is the one trying to mark their CF. These incidents happen regularly and say to me we don't work on this stuff enough in training and so in the frantic ebb and flow of PL matches players are put into positions where they don't instinctively know what to do and so try do the best decision they can come up with in that split second and mistakes occur regularly.

Or, alternatively they are benefitting from playing just a single game each week and still having the benefit of their very defensive counter attacking football working against most teams because they don't yet respect them as a decent team and therefore expect to beat them and commit men forward.

I suspect Forest won't keep up anything like the same sort of form in the second half of the season, I think their opponents will stop trying to make all the running in the game and sit back against them giving Forest a very different problem to overcome.

 

[monkeybarry]

1. A victim of putting long term planning to try to do something significant over just trying to bumble along coming 5th to 7th most years and maybe hitting 4th every now and again in a really lucky year.

2. A victim of having a small, inexperienced squad (perhaps due to his planning being long-term)

3. Also a victim of bad luck with injuries (perhaps also due to item 1)

4. I don't think there is a manager in the World who has done everything perfectly. I think he could've played Spence a bit more in the PL and I think he shouldn't have risked both VDV and Romero against Chelsea. I'm not sure there's much else he could've done with the tools he's been given IMO.

5. A victim of playing naive and easily exploitable football

6. A victim of being unable/unwilling to react tactically to in game events

7. A victim of being unable/unwilling to adapt in the face of a huge injury crisis

 

[Kompakted]

Or, alternatively they are benefitting from playing just a single game each week and still having the benefit of their very defensive counter attacking football working against most teams because they don't yet respect them as a decent team and therefore expect to beat them and commit men forward.

I suspect Forest won't keep up anything like the same sort of form in the second half of the season, I think their opponents will stop trying to make all the running in the game and sit back against them giving Forest a very different problem to overcome.

I do expect Forest to fall off a bit, I mean, they're currently 3rd and 13 points ahead of us. I doubt our consistency will improve to the point that we close the 13 point gap, but I don't expect Forest to finish in the top 4. If they qualify for Europe I expect them to tail off next season even more, but factoring in how far ahead they are of us in one of the tighest seasons in ages and their comparative resources I'd say yes, the gap is because they are better coached and drilled than we are. I mean we took one of their best academy products in generations off their hands for Postecoglu which shows the comparative standing/resources of both clubs.

Interesting follow up in terms of whether Spurs/Ange are making the most of resources available: can we say any player has improved under Postecoglu? Maybe Kulu? Have players regressed? Son? We say he's past it. Maybe he is. We signed Maddison off the back of an upwards developmental curve where I think he ended with a ridiculous direct goal contribution season and he just looks lost. Solanke off the back of 19 goal season, he just isn't having the goal scoring impact you'd expect in a really high goalscoring team. I think Bissouma looks a shadow of the player he did at Brighton. Romero has gone backwards for me. I could go on...

 

[Gazza]

2 games, right? Brighton and Chelsea? We've not lost any others under Ange when leading by 2 goals. But this season alone, we've go on to win big because we don't stop playing in these matches:

- 4-0 Everton
- 3-0 Qarabag
- 3-0 Man Utd
- 4-1 West Ham
- 4-1 Aston Villa
- 4-0 Emirates Marketing Project
- 5-0 Southampton

Now, that's not saying we don't have problems. We clearly do. But this idea of "we're too manic when we lead and it costs us points" is extremely misguided.

I think you forgot to mention the games when we were winning and failed to get the win … I understand that it’s part of football but it seems more of a regular thing under Ange.

I don’t know how many times we have been in front knowing that we won’t get a win it’s that obvious from me watching the game why can’t Ange see it?

 

[Finney Is Back]

5. A victim of playing naive and easily exploitable football

6. A victim of being unable/unwilling to react tactically to in game events

7. A victim of being unable/unwilling to adapt in the face of a huge injury crisis

If by 5 you mean decent to watch, attacking football then I'd rather that than boring, defensive stuff.
6 isn't true. We do change the way that we play.
7 I have no idea what more adapting you want him to do (I've seen us play games recently where we are definitely deeper and pressing less).

 

[Finney Is Back]

I do expect Forest to fall off a bit, I mean, they're currently 3rd and 13 points ahead of us. I doubt our consistency will improve to the point that we close the 13 point gap, but I don't expect Forest to finish in the top 4. If they qualify for Europe I expect them to tail off next season even more, but factoring in how far ahead they are of us in one of the tighest seasons in ages and their comparative resources I'd say yes, the gap is because they are better coached and drilled than we are. I mean we took one of their best academy products in generations off their hands for Postecoglu which shows the comparative standing/resources of both clubs.

Interesting follow up in terms of whether Spurs/Ange are making the most of resources available: can we say any player has improved under Postecoglu? Maybe Kulu? Have players regressed? Son? We say he's past it. Maybe he is. We signed Maddison off the back of an upwards developmental curve where I think he ended with a ridiculous direct goal contribution season and he just looks lost. Solanke off the back of 19 goal season, he just isn't having the goal scoring impact you'd expect in a really high goalscoring team. I think Bissouma looks a shadow of the player he did at Brighton. Romero has gone backwards for me. I could go on...

If Forest do qualify for Europe then I bet their owners do the reverse of what we did and strengthen their squad and increase their wage bill to give them the best possible chance of being able to play in multiple competitions. If they end up in Europe and do what we did removing experience and cutting the wage bill then I think they would perhaps be looking at relegation.

Improved under Postecoglou? I think Porro, Spence, Kulu, Bissouma and Richarlison (though injured lots) all look better than they did prior to him being here.

 

[Kompakted]

If Forest do qualify for Europe then I bet their owners do the reverse of what we did and strengthen their squad and increase their wage bill to give them the best possible chance of being able to play in multiple competitions. If they end up in Europe and do what we did removing experience and cutting the wage bill then I think they would perhaps be looking at relegation.

Improved under Postecoglou? I think Porro, Spence, Kulu, Bissouma and Richarlison (though injured lots) all look better than they did prior to him being here.

I really don't think Porro or Bissouma look like they're improving. Spence hasn't been played previously. I think Richarlison has had a generally torrid time of it since he joined and he was always going to show glimpses after Kane left but I really don't think he's improved - he's still a shadow of the player he was at Everton.

 

[Raziel]

I really don't think Porro or Bissouma look like they're improving. Spence hasn't been played previously. I think Richarlison has had a generally torrid time of it since he joined and he was always going to show glimpses after Kane left but I really don't think he's improved - he's still a shadow of the player he was at Everton.

Porro at the start of this season (and even end of last) clearly improved, better defensively, was adding goals to his game and is consistently up there in the league with TAA in creating chances/assists. He's been run into the ground, wouldn't be surprised if he has a knock, so very hard to make judgement now.

Richarlison is all about the injuries, unfortunately I think he's a bit crocked and injury prone players in an Ange system is not a recipe for success. Bissouma is lack of consistency

Easy way to measure is I could see Porro going to a better side, don't see the other two doing that.

 

[Kompakted]

Porro at the start of this season (and even end of last) clearly improved, better defensively, was adding goals to his game and is consistently up there in the league with TAA in creating chances/assists. He's been run into the ground, wouldn't be surprised if he has a knock, so very hard to make judgement now.

Richarlison is all about the injuries, unfortunately I think he's a bit crocked and injury prone players in an Ange system is not a recipe for success. Bissouma is lack of consistency

Easy way to measure is I could see Porro going to a better side, don't see the other two doing that.

You could say that about the whole team, that we started the season better than we ended the last in terms of performances (if not results) but unfortunately rather than the results starting to match performances, the performances have started matching the inconsistent results.

Where i am at with Porro is that he isn't improving as a player under Postecoglu, he's a player that was never a right-back who has started to develop an a natural understanding of how to play in that position after 18 months playing there, but he as you say has deteriorated in his all round play. He was always a reliable passer/crosser/striker of a ball. He's been incredibly wasteful for a while, and started to give the ball away cheaply on a frequent basis.

We say all these players are being run into the ground, and they are, but they looked like that before injuries took their toll. Spence's form when he's been allowed to come in makes Postecoglu's decision to persist with Porro and Udogie in every game up to the point he's been forced not to all the more confusing.

 

[Raziel]

You could say that about the whole team, that we started the season better than we ended the last in terms of performances (if not results) but unfortunately rather than the results starting to match performances, the performances have started matching the inconsistent results.

Where i am at with Porro is that he isn't improving as a player under Postecoglu, he's a player that was never a right-back who has started to develop an a natural understanding of how to play in that position after 18 months playing there, but he as you say has deteriorated in his all round play. He was always a reliable passer/crosser/striker of a ball. He's been incredibly wasteful for a while, and started to give the ball away cheaply on a frequent basis.

We say all these players are being run into the ground, and they are, but they looked like that before injuries took their toll. Spence's form when he's been allowed to come in makes Postecoglu's decision to persist with Porro and Udogie in every game up to the point he's been forced not to all the more confusing.

Like I said mate, take a look at who would actually move to a better club, who there is actual noise about

- Romero, VDV, Porro, Deki are all seen as "targets" for big clubs including RM, recent Deki stuff with Juve

Usually is a better barometer than our own personal view/bias.

 

[DubSpur]

Re para 1 - that's just ignorant. I'm aware of his contract situation. I'm aware of his reputation.
Footballers don't stay somewhere they aren't content to - that hasn't happened for about 20 years.

But the highlighted bit is important here.
Without doubt? What removes the doubt? 23 EPL games? Vicario has been incredible for 23 EPL games. So where is the evidence is without doubt better than the majority of EPL GKs?

Ignorant? You mentioned that he hasn't tried to be a number 1 etc. He has, that's the reason for paragraph 1.

Vicario has been far from incredible for 23 EPL games. He's a great shot stopper, wouldn't argue which is better between him and Kelleher, there's not much in it. The difference is in Kellehers command of his area and dealing with crosses. He's so far ahead of Vicario in that regard it would make a huge difference to our defence.
The evidence is watching games and judging the keepers. If you don't agree that's fair enough, but for me he's one of the top keepers in the league.

 

[Raziel]

Ignorant? You mentioned that he hasn't tried to be a number 1 etc. He has, that's the reason for paragraph 1.

Vicario has been far from incredible for 23 EPL games. He's a great shot stopper, wouldn't argue which is better between him and Kelleher, there's not much in it. The difference is in Kellehers command of his area and dealing with crosses. He's so far ahead of Vicario in that regard it would make a huge difference to our defence.
The evidence is watching games and judging the keepers. If you don't agree that's fair enough, but for me he's one of the top keepers in the league.

Players are opinions, but I think you are giving Keller way too much credit

1. Keller has a grand total of 60 games under his belt, Vicario has played 290+ despite being only 2 years older
2. Pressure of being a backup keeper and the #1 is very different
3. Keller is playing behind VVD and a midfield and system that does a lot to protect him

Keepers are funny to evaluate, most have a decent run early in their career (Pickford, Pope, Henderson, etc.) and later drop to more of a journeyman level, who knows if Keller will step up (he absolutely may).