Ange in or out?

[Gutter Boy]

Most of the time that gets given as a handball imo. If it's inside the penalty area no, not enough for a penalty. But in play elsewhere on he pitch it usually gets given and everyone moves on.

That's completely illogical (the suggested application, not your argument). It's either deliberate and a foul, or accidental and not. Which side of the 18 yard line it was makes no sense at all. Its the same as the idea that you are more lenient on bad tackles in the first quarter of the game - again, absolute nonsense from the officials.

 

[braineclipse]

That's completely illogical (the suggested application, not your argument). It's either deliberate and a foul, or accidental and not. Which side of the 18 yard line it was makes no sense at all. Its the same as the idea that you are more lenient on bad tackles in the first quarter of the game - again, absolute nonsense from the officials.

May be nonsense, but that's how I see the rules being enforced. Takes quite a bit more to get a penalty.

 

[Kompakted]

Bergvall should have tried harder to play it round him then, rather than through him. Same as if it had been the referee in the way of the clearance he wanted to make. The hand/bodyshape was always there, it didn't move in response to the ball being kicked (in which case it would have been a foul).

Bergvall was stretching to make the pass as the ball wasn't played into his feet, it was a bit of a hospital pass and he did his best with it. Goes back to my point that if we hadn't been sloppy with our own play we wouldn't even be talking about a handball.

 

[glasgowspur]

Bergvall should have tried harder to play it round him then, rather than through him. Same as if it had been the referee in the way of the clearance he wanted to make. The hand/bodyshape was always there, it didn't move in response to the ball being kicked (in which case it would have been a foul).

Hang on, last post you said bergval blasted it at his hand, which is it?

And it was around him, the action of joelinton running and his arm "being in a natural position" (quoting the rule BTW, that's not my emphasis) is what stopped the ball.
It's reasonable to assume that most players would actually try to get their arm out of the way there and not concede a foul, so not a bad decision by bergval at all.

 

[glasgowspur]

Bergvall was stretching to make the pass as the ball wasn't played into his feet, it was a bit of a hospital pass and he did his best with it. Goes back to my point that if we hadn't been sloppy with our own play we wouldn't even be talking about a handball.

Following the narrative there, much like the Liverpool goal.
If that pass gets past joelinton Porro and Deki are on an overload. Saudi Sportswashing Machine have over committed in their press and loaded that side, we’ve played through and are away.

 

[DaveT316]

The day I listen to anything that shearer in particular says about anything is the day they screw down the lid on my coffin.

He’s such a bore. I turn over the moment I see him.

 

[Kompakted]

Following the narrative there, much like the Liverpool goal.
If that pass gets past joelinton Porro and Deki are on an overload. Saudi Sportswashing Machine have over committed in their press and loaded that side, we’ve played through and are away.

Yeah and I think that's the rub with the Postecoglu system. It's always on the edge of brilliance or disaster. Proper "roll the dice" football. Think that's why we always seem either lose in head-in-hands fashion or batter someone. If we are properly on it first half as you say we break through that press and possibly score again, then they're demoralised and stop committing to the press so high and it becomes an easier game.

But get it wrong in those situations and...well the result is what we got.

My question is whether Ange can get it to a middle ground which is more sustainable in terms of consistent results, without losing the best parts of what the system can do when it is functioning well. That's the fundamental question.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Hang on, last post you said bergval blasted it at his hand, which is it?

And it was around him, the action of joelinton running and his arm "being in a natural position" (quoting the rule BTW, that's not my emphasis) is what stopped the ball.
It's reasonable to assume that most players would actually try to get their arm out of the way there and not concede a foul, so not a bad decision by bergval at all.

He was trying to play a 50-60 odd yard pass, so it was hitting it hard. I just meant the speed of the kick was very fast, not that he was aiming at the player.

You'd never move your arms excessively out the way. Just make sure they aren't anywhere stupid. In this instance though he clearly had no time at all to think and it would have struck him before he'd realised what had happened.

 

[tommysvr]

The deliberate thing makes me laugh. How can anyone say any handball is deliberate? Literally only one person can say that and they’re obviously a bit biased in that situation.

Sure, you might say a hand moved towards the ball. Is that deliberate? Or just a split section reaction?

It also makes no sense because you’ll also hear “deliberate handball is an automatic booking.” So by the logic, the vast majority of handballs should be bookings, no?

 

[Muttley]

The deliberate thing makes me laugh. How can anyone say any handball is deliberate? Literally only one person can say that and they’re obviously a bit biased in that situation.

Sure, you might say a hand moved towards the ball. Is that deliberate? Or just a split section reaction?

It also makes no sense because you’ll also hear “deliberate handball is an automatic booking.” So by the logic, the vast majority of handballs should be bookings, no?

I can't remember ever having a running style where my hand goes that far behind my back either. So if Joelinton was doing the modern footballer thing and keeping his hand behind his back so as not to give away a handball, how did he manage to suddenly handball it?

I think the term don't kid a kidder comes to mind here. Of course he was trying to handball it. It was a dark art we saw there.

I can forgive the referee for not seeing that, because most of them have no clue about the spirit of the game anyway. It seems they also struggle with the laws of the game based on the lack of issuance of yellows over multiple years.

One could be forgiven for thinking that keeping 22 players on the pitch is more important than applying the laws of the game.

 

[glasgowspur]

He was trying to play a 50-60 odd yard pass, so it was hitting it hard. I just meant the speed of the kick was very fast, not that he was aiming at the player.

You'd never move your arms excessively out the way. Just make sure they aren't anywhere stupid. In this instance though he clearly had no time at all to think and it would have struck him before he'd realised what had happened.

We can't prove if it was deliberate or not, we need to suck it up. My instincts say it wasn’t, but there is enough evidence to make me doubt that.
I don't think it was a 50 - 60 yard pass. A pitch max 80 yards, he was not hitting from one side to other, I'd 30 yards max, but they were close so not much reaction time.
He's running, his hands are going to be moving, Bergvall can't take that accurately into account. It was the correct pass, it just didn't work, which seems to be how it is going for us at the moment.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The deliberate thing makes me laugh. How can anyone say any handball is deliberate? Literally only one person can say that and they’re obviously a bit biased in that situation.

Sure, you might say a hand moved towards the ball. Is that deliberate? Or just a split section reaction?

It also makes no sense because you’ll also hear “deliberate handball is an automatic booking.” So by the logic, the vast majority of handballs should be bookings, no?

Its by seeing if it was ball to hand (accidental) or hand to ball (deliberate). The way that it existed and worked perfectly fine between 1858 and about 2020, when the weirdos started messing with it.

 

[glasgowspur]

The deliberate thing makes me laugh. How can anyone say any handball is deliberate? Literally only one person can say that and they’re obviously a bit biased in that situation.

Sure, you might say a hand moved towards the ball. Is that deliberate? Or just a split section reaction?

It also makes no sense because you’ll also hear “deliberate handball is an automatic booking.” So by the logic, the vast majority of handballs should be bookings, no?

Yellow card for deliberate hand ball is in the rules.
My gripe is that if you hide behind the rules to not chop off the goal you cannot then ignore the other rules when it suits you.
Burn handled the ball, he moved his arm to the ball, he was losing the ball, he tried to gain an unfair advantage, that is a yellow card by the rules.
Rules are there to be applied, not to hide behind when you have a difficult decision to make.

 

[Muttley]

Yellow card for deliberate hand ball is in the rules.
My gripe is that if you hide behind the rules to not chop off the goal you cannot then ignore the other rules when it suits you.
Burn handled the ball, he moved his arm to the ball, he was losing the ball, he tried to gain an unfair advantage, that is a yellow card by the rules.
Rules are there to be applied, not to hide behind when you have a difficult decision to make.

Exactly this.

I think Milo quoted those very laws of the game this week and proved that Burn had to be sent off.

Only Madley knows why he is allowed to ignore the laws.

 

[glasgowspur]

Exactly this.

I think Milo quoted those very laws of the game this week and proved that Burn had to be sent off.

Only Madley knows why he is allowed to ignore the laws.

I've not got that far in the pod yet, honest.
And it's not just Madley and it's not just in our games. PL refs are awful.

 

[Kompakted]

Yellow card for deliberate hand ball is in the rules.
My gripe is that if you hide behind the rules to not chop off the goal you cannot then ignore the other rules when it suits you.
Burn handled the ball, he moved his arm to the ball, he was losing the ball, he tried to gain an unfair advantage, that is a yellow card by the rules.
Rules are there to be applied, not to hide behind when you have a difficult decision to make.

As I've already posted there are three elements that go towards a handball being a cautionable offence:
1) the handball was deliberate (i.e. unsporting behaviour)
2) the handball interfered with or stopped a "promising attack"
3) the referee hasn't awarded a penalty as a result of the handball

Elements 1 and 2 are open to a degree of interpretation by individual match officials

 

[glasgowspur]

As I've already posted there are three elements that go towards a handball being a cautionable offence:
1) the handball was deliberate (i.e. unsporting behaviour)
2) the handball interfered with or stopped a "promising attack"
3) the referee hasn't awarded a penalty as a result of the handball

Elements 1 and 2 are open to a degree of interpretation by individual match officials

He moved him arm towards the ball, that is a deliberate act.
If that is open to interpretation then so is joelintons arm being in a natural position. What is a natural position of an arm for a moving player, because we all move differently.
All I am asking for is consistency, a marker was laid down on how the rules I regards of hand ball were going to be applied, they choose to ignore that marker later in the game.

 

[Muttley]

I've not got that far in the pod yet, honest.
And it's not just Madley and it's not just in our games. PL refs are awful.

That is the problem. Even if I put to one side the incompetence of FIFA/IFAB in the direction they've taken the laws, I cannot tolerate PGMOL's implementation of them. If they followed IFAB's laws then there would be a strong case to get them improved. They don't, and they have no case to represent England in the big debate about the football laws and officiating.

The most shocking thing is that nobody is in shock anymore. Every club, every manager and every player have felt the negative impact but are so hardened to it, they longer speak up. Now we get all these daft narratives from the commentary teams and pundits making the problems seem normal. I'll never be comfortable with where the game has ended up.

 

[Raziel]

He moved him arm towards the ball, that is a deliberate act.
If that is open to interpretation then so is joelintons arm being in a natural position. What is a natural position of an arm for a moving player, because we all move differently.
All I am asking for is consistency, a marker was laid down on how the rules I regards of hand ball were going to be applied, they choose to ignore that marker later in the game.

The issue is, refs will continue to get away with murder/brick decisions because (look at this thread), people want to be tribal, i.e. either fudge Spurs because I support another team, so not handball, or the people that want to man up and take the decisions. Until everyone is on the same page of what is a brick decision (fans and pundits), regardless of who it's for, the refs will hide behind the "it could have gone either way" or "not clear and obvious error"

- The handball that led to the goal in the strictest interpretation of the rule is not a handball, by any other measure? it absolutely is, his hand being involved completed changed the direction of the ball which led directly to (in less than two passes) a goal.
- The best counter I've heard is, if that was Bergvall on the line of goal and Joelinton hit that exactly the same way, think it's not a penalty?
- Saudi Sportswashing Machine (like the scum) get away with all of this "professional" flimflam, fouling, time wasting, and the not giving early yellow is similar to the brick that happens with GK time wasting every week, give them a yellow in the 80th minute, useless.

Re Ange, looks like the club & players are still onboard, he fudging needs some results though ..

 

[Muttley]

The issue is, refs will continue to get away with murder/brick decisions because (look at this thread), people want to be tribal, i.e. either fudge Spurs because I support another team, so not handball, or the people that want to man up and take the decisions. Until everyone is on the same page of what is a brick decision (fans and pundits), regardless of who it's for, the refs will hide behind the "it could have gone either way" or "not clear and obvious error"

- The handball that led to the goal in the strictest interpretation of the rule is not a handball, by any other measure? it absolutely is, his hand being involved completed changed the direction of the ball which led directly to (in less than two passes) a goal.
- The best counter I've heard is, if that was Bergvall on the line of goal and Joelinton hit that exactly the same way, think it's not a penalty?
- Saudi Sportswashing Machine (like the scum) get away with all of this "professional" flimflam, fouling, time wasting, and the not giving early yellow is similar to the brick that happens with GK time wasting every week, give them a yellow in the 80th minute, useless.

Re Ange, looks like the club & players are still onboard, he fudging needs some results though ..

The tribal thing didn't occur to me.

I don't think Liverpool and Arsenal were tribal when they made their public statements of no confidence through their official websites. I think they were representing a football community that needed a couple of the big voices to help get things straightened out. In fact, I though we saw some humility from PGMOL and internal reviews happened to correct things. Now we're back to the complacency with PGMOL again, where instead of holding their hands up, they want the FA to issue bans and fines and protect them.

I was very serious when I said our football club should have made a public statement of no confidence at the weekend. PGMOL need one of the big players in this league to rattle their cage again. The complacency and arrogance is back from an organisation that has a notoriously bad culture, as played out in the public eye for years.

Also worth considering that referees don't become multi-millionaires unless they earn notoriety.