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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 96 73.3%
  • Out

    Votes: 35 26.7%

  • Total voters
    131
City in the league was perhaps won by the high press, but IIRC we were also pushed deep at times. We also had to be smart defensively in a similar manner. Against Liverpool too we pressed really high and really well in the opening part of the game.

In other games and in other game states we play differently. Again, as we have been doing for some time imo. We're not playing the same way against Liverpool or City as against Forrest.

The balls into space. The running directly at us. It will always be a risk when our press is played through or we're counter attacked, but that risk increases when we're fatigued. Also when the game state is such that we have to chase the game, and we've conceded first a lot this season.

When and how we switch from pressing high, pushing people up (on and off the ball) into a more conservative mode is something that has been an issue and been less of an issue in recent games imo. I think that's the players learning and developing, and somewhat less fatigue. That switch has happened before though and is obviously a part of Angeball.

Yeah, I definitely see the point that you can suck teams in and exploit that space when you have better ball players, including our 2 new keepers. Then at the same time if you win the ball by an opposition mistake on a high press, happy days.

What we also need to make sure is that we become less vulnerable to undoing our great work. Stopping the source of crosses and especially getting tight to players around our own goal is imperative. I think that is why a player like Dragusin has done the basic amazingly well. He's been a stalwart for us recently. Stopping teams cutting through the middle of the park against us is another area.

I see absolutely no reason to be changing a manager though.
 
We now look like a team that is as concerned about not letting the opposition have quality chances, as we are about creating them.

A change from the basketball, "we'll score 1 more than you" mentality was all that was being asked for, nothing else. Actually look at the opposition, the threat they pose and respect it.

Would Udogie have played Salah like Spence did is the question? I'm hoping it was tactical and not that Spence isn't as versed in how Ange wants the FB to play. Progress will be seeing Udogie back in the team and not playing as a #10.

Everyone looks happier, less frantic, less sprinting backwards and last ditch lunges.
 
I just want to see more and more of this ability to switch between systems as the game dictates. The one size fits all has been the common theme for most of the 18 months, I'm hoping we now see a deliberate expansion of the tactics, and it is just not out of necessity because of the fatigue.

Agree completely. Last night we didn’t play the way that opposition managers and players have largely worked out (see Gary O’Neill and Salah’s comments - amongst others - after victories against us). That immediately gives the opposition something else to think about, and they then have to make their own adaptations.
 
We now look like a team that is as concerned about not letting the opposition have quality chances, as we are about creating them.

A change from the basketball, "we'll score 1 more than you" mentality was all that was being asked for, nothing else. Actually look at the opposition, the threat they pose and respect it.

Would Udogie have played Salah like Spence did is the question? I'm hoping it was tactical and not that Spence isn't as versed in how Ange wants the FB to play. Progress will be seeing Udogie back in the team and not playing as a #10.

Everyone looks happier, less frantic, less sprinting backwards and last ditch lunges.

Udogie has been working hard all season, but hasnt had a single standout performance this season, while Spence has had several. Looks to me like Spence is working hard to make that place his own, and based on his form he's certainly deserved it, in my opinion.
 
Udogie has been working hard all season, but hasnt had a single standout performance this season, while Spence has had several. Looks to me like Spence is working hard to make that place his own, and based on his form he's certainly deserved it, in my opinion.
Question is how much of that is the way he was being asked to play. Spence has the game ahead of him, Udogie was often sprinting back after sprinting forwards. Tired bodies make bad decisions.

Playing in this more structured should see an uplift in his performances.
 
We've seen us play like this occasionally before as well. It's usually against the better teams where we have space to attack in. I want to see how we do in the run after Arsenal.

Everton, Hoffenheim, Leicester, Elfsborg, Brentford.

A consistent run of not being wide open at the back while everyone is running around like headless chickens in an uncoordinated press might convince me we're finally headed in the right direction.
 
Question is how much of that is the way he was being asked to play. Spence has the game ahead of him, Udogie was often sprinting back after sprinting forwards. Tired bodies make bad decisions.

Playing in this more structured should see an uplift in his performances.

This is Spence just a few weeks ago against the same opposition.

This was Liverpool's 3rd just before half time, which Ange repeatedly called out this week as a really bad goal to give away. The bits after Spence's press in the screenshot were awful too, so I'm not intending to critcise him. He's been great overall

spence.jpg
 
This is Spence just a few weeks ago against the same opposition.

This was Liverpool's 3rd just before half time, which Ange repeatedly called out this week as a really bad goal to give away. The bits after Spence's press in the screenshot were awful too, so I'm not intending to critcise him. He's been great overall

View attachment 18434

Is that the one where dragu missed the header?
Because I don't think there is anything wrong with the principle of this.
We've forced their best passer to hoof it, nullifying his threat.
We now have our most tenacious, and quickest players in a threatening position against their weakest defender and a 4 v 4 situation with their defence.
Dragusin drops back, collects that ball and plays it out quickly and we are in a very good position.

The mistake is in how we dealt with the hoof, inexperience cost us, not the system.
 
Is that the one where dragu missed the header?
Because I don't think there is anything wrong with the principle of this.
We've forced their best passer to hoof it, nullifying his threat.
We now have our most tenacious, and quickest players in a threatening position against their weakest defender and a 4 v 4 situation with their defence.
Dragusin drops back, collects that ball and plays it out quickly and we are in a very good position.

The mistake is in how we dealt with the hoof, inexperience cost us, not the system.

I agree -- but, having just gotten back to 2-1 I don't think we need to be that agressive right before half time.
 
I agree -- but, having just gotten back to 2-1 I don't think we need to be that agressive right before half time.

It's eachy peachy for me, they were flapping a bit so I can understand why we tried to drive at them.
Similar to the Chelsea game, cucurela slipped because we pressured him, led to a goal, we did it again, another goal. Not saying his footwear didn't have something to do with it, but Imv it was the press that caused. We put doubt in his mind and he flapped.
There's been multiple times this season where we have created really good early chances with the press and teams are still feeling their way into the game. It's similar when you score, puts doubt in the mind.
 
Great posts in here fellas
One key thing about fullbacks in general (not just Spurs) is when they start deeper yet are expected to overlap OR underlap:
E.g. imagine the pitch is 100 yards long
Imagine we have a fullback at 30 yards and a wide forward at 60 yards
The fullback is expected to sprint from 30 to 90 whilst the forward fannies about from 60 to 70 yards
Then the fullback has to chase all the way back
It is just so inefficient and winds me up
I understand overloads
But it is an unfair expectation and system
Not just Spurs, but all games
 
We've seen us play like this occasionally before as well. It's usually against the better teams where we have space to attack in. I want to see how we do in the run after Arsenal.

Everton, Hoffenheim, Leicester, Elfsborg, Brentford.

A consistent run of not being wide open at the back while everyone is running around like headless chickens in an uncoordinated press might convince me we're finally headed in the right direction.

Yep, our last 6 wins apparently have been City (x2), Villa, United, Southampton and Liverpool
 
This is Spence just a few weeks ago against the same opposition.

This was Liverpool's 3rd just before half time, which Ange repeatedly called out this week as a really bad goal to give away. The bits after Spence's press in the screenshot were awful too, so I'm not intending to critcise him. He's been great overall

View attachment 18434
There is actually nothing particularly wrong with Spence pressing in this instance. Pressing TAA who didn't really have any safe outball other than a pass back to the keeper should've been fine. This press looked poor after the event when Trent's punt forward was flicked on by a Liverpool player who should never have been winning that header. If Dragusin had committed to the challenge properly and won the header then the ball likely would've ended up with Maddison's feet with us having a really promising attacking situation. If Dragusin had dropped off to pick up the flick on then we would've had a reasonably simple pass into Maddison providing the same effect.

Pundits will look at something like that after the event and find fault because Liverpool happened to score a goal. If one of the scenarios I suggested above had happened and we'd scored instead I guarantee the pundits would praise Tottenham's press and show how it caused the goal.
The press was fine, the decision making from Dragusin wasn't. Fine lines between success and failure!
 
I would say that even a week or two ago we saw balls played into the big vacant spaces where full-backs should be. We saw our central midfielders ahead of play and the opposition running directly at us. City league was won on the high press. I would say City cup was more like last night, especially the second half when we defended that 1-0 lead and played more counters.

I just want to see more and more of this ability to switch between systems as the game dictates. The one size fits all has been the common theme for most of the 18 months, I'm hoping we now see a deliberate expansion of the tactics, and it is just not out of necessity because of the fatigue.

I think Ange could do really well at Spurs, but have always felt he might plateau at some stage at a subtly lower level than we need. If we remove him, it won't be anything like the last 3 or 4 managers. It will be about trying to get from 90 to 100%, not meltdown time.

Just to say, I support the club first and Ange second :)

Anyway...Ange has been very clear about he wants us to play our football and how he wants us to approach games. He is not a 'cone' manager in the sense of, say, Conte, who would literally demand that players learned exactly where to stand and where to move at specifc moments in matches, and would blast players for being a couple of yards off. Ange wants players to learn the phiolosophy and also learn how to control games.

I have found it interesting to see some people and pundits say Ange would be 'mad ' if players went long. This is clearly not the case. Romero pings them, Vic sometimes does, Kinsky we can see is almost Pirlo-esque. It's about decisions. Where do those balls work, versus where are they simply to 'get us out of a moment'? Similarly, I've read lots about how we play in one gear. Clearly not true. We have sometimes been far too patient for me, sitting and sitting, lateral movements trying to wait for the moment, almost showing a lack of desire to affect the game by taking. chance.

I believe Ange wants this young side to learn when to seek and when to be smarter within the remit. The FBs have been attacking a little less, but it looks as though the players themselves are working through their decision-making as to when to go and when not. Critically, when they DON'T recently, they have not lacked positive intent; they aren't sitting too deep and they aren't in some sort of hard defensive shape. They're adjusting 7-10 yards and still leaving themselves in place to go front-foot the split second it makes sense.

IMO the players are left with a certain degree of autonomy -albeit obviously the coaches must be offering, err, coaching- to find the balance THEMSELVES between all-out and finding balance. Ange wants to control the ball and thus the match. I feel this season we're making up the hard yards in learning that.

I really feel we have had some disasterous luck since November. I knew we'd pay a big, big fudging price for Vic's injury, and we did/have. It's been discussed why, but IMO, and through no fault of his own because he is who he is, Forster has cost us many points. Again, he has given everything he can, but there is a lot which he cannot do. I further feel we have deserved much more fromm this horror spell...

...the key for me is that we did not fold for 'short-term gain' versus the players seeing that Ange will not throw people under the bus for making mistakes. The ONLY time ha has called a player out has been when they've failed to show application. It's significant.

I remain of the view that this season is about completing that lerning curve and squad strength, that everything we're doing will mature next season. If we get a trophy this season it would be fantastic but as long as the growth of these players -and our squad- continues, that's what I want to see.

There's been some great discussions recently, long may they continue, but here's to how players like Gray, Bergvall, Spence, Deki, Solankle and Pedro continue to develop as game controllers, dictators and leaders. The Gray/Bergvall sum total 32 years old ascension learning curve has been joyous. Audere Est Facere!!!
 
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