Ange in or out?

[Robspur12]

Porro, yes he's fudging fatigued out and probably carrying a knock, but his better games he's improved both sides of his game (has become a viable RB in 4 atb system), his offensive output is up there with leagues best.

Porro was an outstanding player for Sporting, he has taken a while to settle in but has he been improved by Ange’s coaching -I’m not sure tbh. Same with Kulu. For me, the jury is out on whether he has improved players.

For sure though one player who hasn’t thrived under Ange is James Maddison whose career appears to have stalled, possibly gone backwards. Son started well last season but has faded this season, perhaps because of tiredness. I’m not sure he has done Dragusin or Romero any favours either.

 

[Gutter Boy]

A slightly different question. Has a manager ever fallen this low, and then turned it round? I guess Ferguson's United flirted with relegation at the end of the 80s. But has there been anything more recent? Or does the spiral of decline always get its man?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A slightly different question. Has a manager ever fallen this low, and then turned it round? I guess Ferguson's United flirted with relegation at the end of the 80s. But has there been anything more recent? Or does the spiral of decline always get its man?

People will disagree but arsenal under arteta were genuinely bad without the injury issues and they had a LOT of fans wanting him gone
I know they spoke to Poch about taking over … or they randomly had a meeting at clients office that I used to look after (my company did). I don’t think we will finish 8th though
That’s the most immediate example for me
The spiral of decline here though is quite different because of how the club chose to decimate the squad even before the injuries (again now people will say we have a squad with enough depth, which I really do t agree with and it’s subjective at best, but we factually have a lot less players than last season)
None of that though means he survives IMO
Sunday was his Stellini Saudi Sportswashing Machine away or Jose’s Zagreb or Contes Milan at home

 

[Kompakted]

People will disagree but arsenal under arteta were genuinely bad without the injury issues and they had a LOT of fans wanting him gone
I know they spoke to Poch about taking over … or they randomly had a meeting at clients office that I used to look after (my company did). I don’t think we will finish 8th though
That’s the most immediate example for me
The spiral of decline here though is quite different because of how the club chose to decimate the squad even before the injuries (again now people will say we have a squad with enough depth, which I really do t agree with and it’s subjective at best, but we factually have a lot less players than last season)
None of that though means he survives IMO
Sunday was his Stellini Saudi Sportswashing Machine away or Jose’s Zagreb or Contes Milan at home

I dont think you can compare Arteta at Arsenal to Ange. Even before the injuries started he was leasing us to one of our worst ever PL points totals and finishes. Before December we'd lost 5 games with our squad pretty much at full strength. We then went on to lose two more before being forced into the "Archie Gray playing CB" situation. Extrapolate that form over the season and we'd have been looking at a 50ish point season, one of our worst ever as I've said. The injuries have potentially dropped us to a 40ish point season and relegation scrap. But even if that hadn't happened, Arteta would have been sacked had he got anywhere near delivering what Ange has this season

 

[thfcsteff]

Porro was an outstanding player for Sporting, he has taken a while to settle in but has he been improved by Ange’s coaching -I’m not sure tbh. Same with Kulu. For me, the jury is out on whether he has improved players.

For sure though one player who hasn’t thrived under Ange is James Maddison whose career appears to have stalled, possibly gone backwards. Son started well last season but has faded this season, perhaps because of tiredness. I’m not sure he has done Dragusin or Romero any favours either.

There was a reason only ourselves and Saudi Sportswashing Machine were in for him.

 

[Mulletperm]

I dont think you can compare Arteta at Arsenal to Ange. Even before the injuries started he was leasing us to one of our worst ever PL points totals and finishes. Before December we'd lost 5 games with our squad pretty much at full strength. We then went on to lose two more before being forced into the "Archie Gray playing CB" situation. Extrapolate that form over the season and we'd have been looking at a 50ish point season, one of our worst ever as I've said. The injuries have potentially dropped us to a 40ish point season and relegation scrap. But even if that hadn't happened, Arteta would have been sacked had he got anywhere near delivering what Ange has this season

I'd disagree with this. Up to the beginning of November, where we got hit by injuries (Romero, VdV and Odobert), this was our record:

P: 15
W: 10
D: 1
L: 4

 

[Muttley]

I'd disagree with this. Up to the beginning of November, where we got hit by injuries (Romero, VdV and Odobert), this was our record:

P: 15
W: 10
D: 1
L: 4

That's actually quite encouraging. Totals up to a 78 point season.

We surely have to pick up more points as players return. I'm not in denial that we could get dragged closer to relegation, but I don't think we'll be in the bottom 3 at any stage. More likely we'll climb a little.

 

[Kompakted]

I'd disagree with this. Up to the beginning of November, where we got hit by injuries (Romero, VdV and Odobert), this was our record:

P: 15
W: 10
D: 1
L: 4

August:
Leicester (A) - D 1-1
Everton (H) - W 4-0

September:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (A) - L 1-2
Arsenal (H) - L 0-1
Brentford (H) - W 3-1
Man Utd (A) - W 3-0

October:
Brighton (A) - L 2-3
West Ham (H) - W 4-1
Palace (A) - L 0-1

November:
Villa (H) - W 4-1
Ipswich (H) - L 1-2
Emirates Marketing Project (A) - W 4-0

So don't know where you are getting 10 wins before November from. Unless you're counting atuff like stealing a win from Coventry in the cup and beating "Farmers-r-us" in Europa. It has been basically a 50/50 win and loss ratio from the start with our record up to your cut off bring:
P 9 W 4 D 1 L 4.

That's with a fresh and pretty much fully fit squad. Over the season that puts us on about 50 odd points....and probably about 10th. So like I said I think the injuries have turned an extremely poor season into a disastrous one, but he'd still have led us to one of our worst campaigns in years unless things picked up dramatically.

 

[braineclipse]

A slightly different question. Has a manager ever fallen this low, and then turned it round? I guess Ferguson's United flirted with relegation at the end of the 80s. But has there been anything more recent? Or does the spiral of decline always get its man?

Good question. Essentially does it even seem possible or plausible to turn this around.

Bedfordspurs pointed out Arteta. I think Howe at Saudi Sportswashing Machine is another example. But none of them fell to the level we're at now. Examples of this kind of situation being turned around for sure are rare.

Part of that may also be that by this point most managers at most clubs would already be sacked, so not a lot of examples where this has been tested.

 

[Mulletperm]

August:
Leicester (A) - D 1-1
Everton (H) - W 4-0

September:
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (A) - L 1-2
Arsenal (H) - L 0-1
Brentford (H) - W 3-1
Man Utd (A) - W 3-0

October:
Brighton (A) - L 2-3
West Ham (H) - W 4-1
Palace (A) - L 0-1

November:
Villa (H) - W 4-1
Ipswich (H) - L 1-2
Emirates Marketing Project (A) - W 4-0

So don't know where you are getting 10 wins before November from. Unless you're counting atuff like stealing a win from Coventry in the cup and beating "Farmers-r-us" in Europa. It has been basically a 50/50 win and loss ratio from the start with our record up to your cut off bring:
P 9 W 4 D 1 L 4.

That's with a fresh and pretty much fully fit squad. Over the season that puts us on about 50 odd points....and probably about 10th. So like I said I think the injuries have turned an extremely poor season into a disastrous one, but he'd still have led us to one of our worst campaigns in years unless things picked up dramatically.

You can't make wild assumptions such as that. Whose to say that as the season progresses the team clicks more and more into how Ange wants them to play?

 

[harr1984]

Porro was an outstanding player for Sporting, he has taken a while to settle in but has he been improved by Ange’s coaching -I’m not sure tbh. Same with Kulu. For me, the jury is out on whether he has improved players.

For sure though one player who hasn’t thrived under Ange is James Maddison whose career appears to have stalled, possibly gone backwards. Son started well last season but has faded this season, perhaps because of tiredness. I’m not sure he has done Dragusin or Romero any favours either.

It's always going to be hard to come out and state players have improved when we are going through the period we are . But this period has seen us blood some youngsters for who the experience will stand them in good stead for the future. Bergvall has definitely improved since he first got here, he was awful on his first game but is really coming into his own. Gray is classy anyway, but he has grown into a role that isn't his strongest and this will definitely help him when he does eventually move into midfield, and he has given minutes to Moore when available and will doubtlessly be better for it.

Kulu has definitely improved, and I actually think Dragusin has done well all in all but it should be remembered we have a lot of young players that are bound to have up and down form. Maddison is as he always has been - great at times, missing at other times which is why I don't think he has as many caps as he probably thinks he should. Again, one of Ange's biggest mistake was this leadership group - Like Son Maddison is just not a real leader, and Romero is not reliable for a few reasons either.....

 

[tommysvr]

Yeah, ideally we'd have multiple opinions. This guy could have easily just written nice things because he's mates with Ange. It's actually a very balanced article for the BBC. I was expecting it to be a load of Ange bashing. I'm glad it wasn't.

First time I'd watched the post match interview that's in the same link. I would have told Ange to fudge off if I was that interviewer. He was rude and disrespectful to someone who is doing their job. In that moment, he let our club down. It was actually a fair question.

This is the side of Ange that is unfortunately rearing its ugly head. Ange needs someone like Munn to sit him down and tell him he is letting his ego get in the way of being objective.

Genuinely curious why people get the hump with his interviews? He's short, direct and sometimes rude. What does it matter? Do you see it as bad look on the club? If so, why and how will it harm us?

It may come as no surprise given how I reply to people on here, but I love his directness.

 

[braineclipse]

You can't make wild assumptions such as that. Whose to say that as the season progresses the team clicks more and more into how Ange wants them to play?

I think it's fair to calculate the points per game and extrapolate that to a full season as an objective look at our results.

But I also think it's fair to point out that this doesn't tell the full story, as you essentially do.

For me that early part of the season was one of inconsistency. The question was can Ange get more consistency in the future. Imo that question remains unanswered, in part because of the injuries we've had since.

It's always going to be hard to come out and state players have improved when we are going through the period we are . But this period has seen us blood some youngsters for who the experience will stand them in good stead for the future. Bergvall has definitely improved since he first got here, he was awful on his first game but is really coming into his own. Gray is classy anyway, but he has grown into a role that isn't his strongest and this will definitely help him when he does eventually move into midfield, and he has given minutes to Moore when available and will doubtlessly be better for it.

Kulu has definitely improved, and I actually think Dragusin has done well all in all but it should be remembered we have a lot of young players that are bound to have up and down form. Maddison is as he always has been - great at times, missing at other times which is why I don't think he has as many caps as he probably thinks he should. Again, one of Ange's biggest mistake was this leadership group - Like Son Maddison is just not a real leader, and Romero is not reliable for a few reasons either.....

Our actual squad is better than it's been for years and years.

Personally I want to see what Ange can do with that squad and a couple of additions. But the longer this crisis lasts the less likely it becomes we'll get to see what he could or couldn't do with it.

 

[braineclipse]

Genuinely curious why people get the hump with his interviews? He's short, direct and sometimes rude. What does it matter? Do you see it as bad look on the club? If so, why and how will it harm us?

It may come as no surprise given how I reply to people on here, but I love his directness.

The pressure he's under. The problems he's faced over the last couple of months especially. Press pre and post every game, multiple times.

I think he's dealing with it as well as can be expected.

 

[tommysvr]

The pressure he's under. The problems he's faced over the last couple of months especially. Press pre and post every game, multiple times.

I think he's dealing with it as well as can be expected.

Of course, he's definitely going to be more wound up than usual...but he's always been like this. All he was known for until his 36 game unbeaten run with Brisbane Roar was this:

And yes, that comes on the back of a bad result at the U20 World Cup. But there was no real pressure. I don't think anyone was really aware of it at the time. Basically, he's short and direct and will call out dumb questions. Sometimes that comes across as rude, but I don't think there's really a huge negative to it.

 

[braineclipse]

Of course, he's definitely going to be more wound up than usual...but he's always been like this. All he was known for until his 36 game unbeaten run with Brisbane Roar was this:

And yes, that comes on the back of a bad result at the U20 World Cup. But there was no real pressure. I don't think anyone was really aware of it at the time. Basically, he's short and direct and will call out dumb questions. Sometimes that comes across as rude, but I don't think there's really a huge negative to it.

I agree. It's think we get more of it in a situation like this and then it's seen as a bigger problem by people who see it as a problem.

But that's the case with all managers. There is no way to behave and answer questions that is seen as broadly "good enough" by all when results aren't going your way.

The only fix is winning football matches, there is nothing that can be fixed in press conferences.

 

[harr1984]

I agree. It's think we get more of it in a situation like this and then it's seen as a bigger problem by people who see it as a problem.

But that's the case with all managers. There is no way to behave and answer questions that is seen as broadly "good enough" by all when results aren't going your way.

The only fix is winning football matches, there is nothing that can be fixed in press conferences.

Exactly. The interview @Muttley highlighted I do agree he was wrong to go off as he did, but at the end of the day I'd be more concerned if the manager wasn't fudged off after that game and the run we are on and I don't see it as a big deal but undoubtedly shows he's feeling the pressure a little at least.

In general, his demeanor and shortness with interviewers is pretty much consistent and I haven't placed any more importance on this side of things when we have been winning as opposed to now - Like you say, it's just that any little thing is magnified when we are going through the run we are but the reality is in the big scheme of things what he does in these interviews mean very little overall.....

 

[Kompakted]

You can't make wild assumptions such as that. Whose to say that as the season progresses the team clicks more and more into how Ange wants them to play?

Its not really a wild assumption when you have about three quarters of 2023/24 to go on and a big chunk of 2024/25. It really isn't that wild to think that you're not seeing any signs of progress towards consistent results and so while you're right, I can't sit here and say that things couldn't have dramatically picked up, there really weren't many signs of that and he doesn't have a track record in a competitive league. I'd say his appointment was a risk. A punt. And inconsistent and poor results were a significant possibility with him at this level and injuries were also to be expected and it is what a lot of journalists that looked into his previous stints at other clubs told us to expect.

 

[Muttley]

Genuinely curious why people get the hump with his interviews? He's short, direct and sometimes rude. What does it matter? Do you see it as bad look on the club? If so, why and how will it harm us?

It may come as no surprise given how I reply to people on here, but I love his directness.

I mostly do, but we need him to grow up the world he now operates in. All the guy said was "familiar story" and his intonation was non-emotional. For Ange to jump on him like that and be snidy was rude and unasked for. Ange will know that deep down as well and probably apologise to the reporter next time they see each other.

We all know that the media will come at you if you show that weakness. If Ange is really about changing the culture, then that should include the media relationship. No issue with talking down to them and being alpha with them. Just not in that way. It has the opposite effect.

It's like being a boss who has an door open policy. Then you walk into that open door, give your boss your good idea and are told to go away and get on with your work. It's not a good look being that boss.

 

[tommysvr]

I mostly do, but we need him to grow up the world he now operates in. All the guy said was "familiar story" and his intonation was non-emotional. For Ange to jump on him like that and be snidy was rude and unasked for. Ange will know that deep down as well and probably apologise to the reporter next time they see each other.

We all know that the media will come at you if you show that weakness. If Ange is really about changing the culture, then that should include the media relationship. No issue with talking down to them and being alpha with them. Just not in that way. It has the opposite effect.

It's like being a boss who has an door open policy. Then you walk into that open door, give your boss your good idea and are told to go away and get on with your work. It's not a good look being that boss.

The media are going to spin brick whichever way they decide will get clicks. And that is mostly negative. He could be Prince fudging Charming, they’ll still absolutely come for him.