Ange in or out?

[Danishfurniturelover]

Fcuk off Ange

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Not sure its doom and gloom, its a discussion board, would be pretty slim pickings if all that was discussed was certain aspects of the club. I mean we have had a great Euro Campaign and a poor League one, thats just the facts we have to deal with as fans

I agree, is there anyone who doesn't feel with had a terrible league campaign? There must be some as it's referred to in virtually every posting, discussion it's not. We had a good win on Thursday, it could have been better but it gives the next match a bit of an edge, just enjoy the win.

 

[carl]

Despite the name the Champions League is a Cup, is that not worth winning?


Yes anyone can win a cup, but we were not in a position to the PL, only the truly delusional would have said that in August, and we weren't in the CL, the next highest rank tournament we could realistically win is the EL.
Now I don't believe that we have focused on the EL to the detriment of our PL form, so that's not an excuse to be as low as we are, but for me the league position will soon be forgotten about should we win in bilbao.

It's CL football, it's a huge monkey off our back and an opportunity to kick on.
Without ange.

I didn't say the Europa wasn't worth winning, I'm hoping we do.

My point was that if we do win it, it shouldn't be enough for Ange to keep his job.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Fcuk off Ange

Discussion?

 

[thfcsteff]

I completely respect your right to hold these views Steff, but I have to say I feel somewhat sad reading them. Allow me to explain…

Firstly, I feel sad that you feel you can’t get to the final should we get there for the reasons you outline above. That’s your prerogative and I can understand you feeling that way, but it’s still sad that you don’t think you’d be able to derive joy from potentially a wonderful experience, particularly for someone that Spurs mean so very much to.

Secondly, and the main point I’d look to constructively challenge you on, is about the so-called ‘joy thieves’.

For transparency, I’m not sure if I fall into this camp or not, but I’ve certainly found myself taking very little joy out of this season, including this run to the semis.

I’m not going to get into the reasons in detail, but broadly, and is a point I think we’ve agreed on in the past, football is a ‘journey’, not a destination. And, for me, this journey has been, well, brick. The issues with this season have been discussed at length here so I won’t bother to get into them again, but this season has sapped the life out of me as a Spurs supporting fan. To be clear, this isn’t just about Ange and how he’s lead the team, but all the polarised discourse and negativity surrounding the club, leadership direction etc..,

I know you and Milo have also been talking a lot recently about football being about the ‘moments’, but this is where is think our feelings diverge. Moments minus a journey and they’re meaningless. Poch’s moments meant something because of the journey we were on, I think on that we can agree, but the moments this season appear to be built on sand. For me, at least…

Happiness is, I guess, a choice and all that but what I’m looking to slightly challenge you on is by labelling people ‘joy thieves’ is potentially in itself adding to the polarised nature of the discourse. I would venture that there are a significant number of people that are not just shouting at the proverbial cloud, but are genuinely concerned about the direction of our great club and just don’t feel the ‘connection’ at the moment.

Obviously, your feelings are your own, but I also realise you are a great believer in society demonstrating more empathy and as an influential voice here, considering that there’s a vast spectrum of views, it’s something maybe to ponder on.

Anyway, I felt I had to get this down as it’s been something on my mind for a while. I hope you take this with the spirit with which it’s intended, which is wholly positive in intent!

COYS!

It is a fantastic post Dave, and frankly, I am not surprised it has come from you.

I think what I should clarify is the phrase 'joy thieves'. I, too, have taken a remarkably small amount of joy from this season for all the reasons you mentioned. In that sense, the club have thieved our joy LOL...but when I use the phrase, I direct it towards those who continually feel the need to remind everyone how 'brick' it's been even when a moment of happiness occurs.

I agree wholeheartedly about the importance of the journey, however when the journey has been fraught, do we allow ourselves to darken any light we might be able to experience with a constant reminder of said-fraughtness? Given the choice I'd love a journey. But there isn't one to enjoy here. So all we're left with are moments. And me? I am trying to enjoy them when they happen (albeit it has been hard). I am certainly not saying everyone should, further I am not saying there is a right and wrong. What I am saying is that it would be great if people who don't wish to even enjoy these moments would not remind us how awful a season it'e been as we're trying to.

I wholly agree that discussion, and concern, should actually be paramount among us all if we care about this club. Yet when discussing universal empathy -and even consideration for others- I'd love it if there could be a collective appreciation that when we have acually done something right for once in a season of wrongs, that perhaps it'd be nice to let that sit for a little bit as oppoed to immediately leaping out and reminding everyone it's all been 'brick' and that even winning the Europa League 'won't change that'.

I personally subscribe to the theory that society generally is angrier and more polarised than I ever remember it (covid and political situations everywhere, plus the polarised society we appear to live in). And I think that bleeds into all life, including (sadly) football. Some of the things I see and hear said about Levy, the players, and Postecoglu disgust me. And I think I am just getting tired of that, really tired. I do agree that some of what I say could well be polarising in and of itself if taken that way; the alternative is to say nothing, which believe it or not, I am edging ever-closer to (I know I know, a stretch LOL).

Again, a great post and (IMO) excellently articulated points and counter-points. Hopefully my answers both make sense and offer a little more context to the phrase 'joy thief' as I use it.

Steff

 

[thfcsteff]

I didnt write it lightly, I've supported Spurs for over 45 years through thick and thin I know the history of the club as well as anyone. But it's how I feel about Ange. Some of the league games have been so bad I cannot see a way forward with him and think it will be very damaging for him to start next season have the same kind of league form then sack him mid way through the season. Of course I would love a European trophy but I have been and will be consistent in my view of him.

Just to be clear, I was absolutely not directing at you specifically. We have always got on really well here, and I respect you and your writing.

 

[Sandman]

Well Bournemouth playing very very well at the scum.

 

[thfcsteff]

There wouldn't be any of that in Bilbao, that's a preposterous notion imho - we saw in the build up to the Bodø home leg that the focus in and around the match was one of positivity and support for the team, despite the overall situation being what it is - that would only be ramped up for a final.

Perhaps it is 'preposterous' but I won't take the risk mate. I agree that the build-up to Bodø was excellent.

A small story...at the Champions League Final, in front of me were three guys a little older than me. They were singing anti-Liverpool songs relentlessly, and then looked up behind us at a small 'tier' of seats between ther levels. There were a few Asian fans in Liverpool shirts, and one with a Spurs shirt. This saw them immediately start volleying off all sort of racist filth and further anti-Scouse sentiments (remember, we were in our FIRST EVER CL and the only songs they could sing were anti-Scouse). I'd been having a fudging great time with my mates until this wall of tossers. I leant into the main one, put my hands on him, and said 'this is out first EVER CL Final, channel the energy into being positive FFS, sing up for Tottenham' and brick like that. I think they were shocked because they at least stopped abusing the people up there...

...if we won, I would want to sing Postecoglu's name, not as a wind-up, now because I 'want him to stay' but because he would've been the manager when we won our first European trophy and UEFA/EuropaCup since 1984. I fear it might not be universally approved.

Perhaps that's on me Billy, and if so, well, that's on me. I am not prepared to take the chance.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think I posted a while back that the whole possibility of going on a magical European tour with one part of the collective (ie the manager, a big part) not being carried along on the euphoria in harmony would blight such an event. A 'despite of him' feeling , a disgruntlement with him. A not seeing eye to eye. It definitely leaves a feeling of unease.

Personally, I don't like that scenario, BUT in my lifetime we've been in 3 European finals ...so by definition they're a rare event. To not go because of other supporters attitudes/nonsense will basically in this day and age most likely exclude you from going to a final ever again...such is modern fandom.

I'm sure, hanging with a group you are already friends/acquaintances with can insulate you from being riled?.

Lastly Bilbao is top 5 (imo) of European venues and citys to welcome your own club for a final. Hard to give it a miss.

Yes mate, a great city.
I am thankfully old enough to have seen us win it in 1984 and have been to Madrid in 2019.

What I bold-faced above is a fascinating question, and one I will think about. I believe you might well be right (and as you know about me I love nothing more than an away day)...one to ponder.

 

[Junior19]

It is a fantastic post Dave, and frankly, I am not surprised it has come from you.

I think what I should clarify is the phrase 'joy thieves'. I, too, have taken a remarkably small amount of joy from this season for all the reasons you mentioned. In that sense, the club have thieved our joy LOL...but when I use the phrase, I direct it towards those who continually feel the need to remind everyone how 'brick' it's been even when a moment of happiness occurs.

I agree wholeheartedly about the importance of the journey, however when the journey has been fraught, do we allow ourselves to darken any light we might be able to experience with a constant reminder of said-fraughtness? Given the choice I'd love a journey. But there isn't one to enjoy here. So all we're left with are moments. And me? I am trying to enjoy them when they happen (albeit it has been hard). I am certainly not saying everyone should, further I am not saying there is a right and wrong. What I am saying is that it would be great if people who don't wish to even enjoy these moments would not remind us how awful a season it'e been as we're trying to.

I wholly agree that discussion, and concern, should actually be paramount among us all if we care about this club. Yet when discussing universal empathy -and even consideration for others- I'd love it if there could be a collective appreciation that when we have acually done something right for once in a season of wrongs, that perhaps it'd be nice to let that sit for a little bit as oppoed to immediately leaping out and reminding everyone it's all been 'brick' and that even winning the Europa League 'won't change that'.

I personally subscribe to the theory that society generally is angrier and more polarised than I ever remember it (covid and political situations everywhere, plus the polarised society we appear to live in). And I think that bleeds into all life, including (sadly) football. Some of the things I see and hear said about Levy, the players, and Postecoglu disgust me. And I think I am just getting tired of that, really tired. I do agree that some of what I say could well be polarising in and of itself if taken that way; the alternative is to say nothing, which believe it or not, I am edging ever-closer to (I know I know, a stretch LOL).

Again, a great post and (IMO) excellently articulated points and counter-points. Hopefully my answers both make sense and offer a little more context to the phrase 'joy thief' as I use it.

Steff

Such posts as these two are why I love this board, and have renounced all other boards in its favour!
Great discussion, great points on both sides, with respect and dignity!
And just enough posts of this quality still to remain the best board to go to!

Of course, we also have the very best drunken rants here as well!!

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

It is a fantastic post Dave, and frankly, I am not surprised it has come from you.

I think what I should clarify is the phrase 'joy thieves'. I, too, have taken a remarkably small amount of joy from this season for all the reasons you mentioned. In that sense, the club have thieved our joy LOL...but when I use the phrase, I direct it towards those who continually feel the need to remind everyone how 'brick' it's been even when a moment of happiness occurs.

I agree wholeheartedly about the importance of the journey, however when the journey has been fraught, do we allow ourselves to darken any light we might be able to experience with a constant reminder of said-fraughtness? Given the choice I'd love a journey. But there isn't one to enjoy here. So all we're left with are moments. And me? I am trying to enjoy them when they happen (albeit it has been hard). I am certainly not saying everyone should, further I am not saying there is a right and wrong. What I am saying is that it would be great if people who don't wish to even enjoy these moments would not remind us how awful a season it'e been as we're trying to.

I wholly agree that discussion, and concern, should actually be paramount among us all if we care about this club. Yet when discussing universal empathy -and even consideration for others- I'd love it if there could be a collective appreciation that when we have acually done something right for once in a season of wrongs, that perhaps it'd be nice to let that sit for a little bit as oppoed to immediately leaping out and reminding everyone it's all been 'brick' and that even winning the Europa League 'won't change that'.

I personally subscribe to the theory that society generally is angrier and more polarised than I ever remember it (covid and political situations everywhere, plus the polarised society we appear to live in). And I think that bleeds into all life, including (sadly) football. Some of the things I see and hear said about Levy, the players, and Postecoglu disgust me. And I think I am just getting tired of that, really tired. I do agree that some of what I say could well be polarising in and of itself if taken that way; the alternative is to say nothing, which believe it or not, I am edging ever-closer to (I know I know, a stretch LOL).

Again, a great post and (IMO) excellently articulated points and counter-points. Hopefully my answers both make sense and offer a little more context to the phrase 'joy thief' as I use it.

Steff

Totally agree with your feelings.

 

[carl]

Perhaps it is 'preposterous' but I won't take the risk mate. I agree that the build-up to Bodø was excellent.

A small story...at the Champions League Final, in front of me were three guys a little older than me. They were singing anti-Liverpool songs relentlessly, and then looked up behind us at a small 'tier' of seats between ther levels. There were a few Asian fans in Liverpool shirts, and one with a Spurs shirt. This saw them immediately start volleying off all sort of racist filth and further anti-Scouse sentiments (remember, we were in our FIRST EVER CL and the only songs they could sing were anti-Scouse). I'd been having a fudging great time with my mates until this wall of tossers. I leant into the main one, put my hands on him, and said 'this is out first EVER CL Final, channel the energy into being positive FFS, sing up for Tottenham' and brick like that. I think they were shocked because they at least stopped abusing the people up there...

...if we won, I would want to sing Postecoglu's name, not as a wind-up, now because I 'want him to stay' but because he would've been the manager when we won our first European trophy and UEFA/EuropaCup since 1984. I fear it might not be universally approved.

Perhaps that's on me Billy, and if so, well, that's on me. I am not prepared to take the chance.

Genuine question for you. If you feel that strongly that you're prepared to miss out on a European cup final then why do you still come on here when opinions and comments are just as bad?

Again this is a genuine question as I know your opinion of me isn't that great.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Such posts as these two are why I love this board, and have renounced all other boards in its favour!
Great discussion, great points on both sides, with respect and dignity!
And just enough posts of this quality still to remain the best board to go to!

Of course, we also have the very best drunken rants here as well!!

How very dare you

 

[Muttley]

Now I don't believe that we have focused on the EL to the detriment of our PL form, so that's not an excuse to be as low as we are, but for me the league position will soon be forgotten about should we win in bilbao.

I think this is a really thought provoking comment. It's certainly got me thinking. In my mind, this one truly relates to "Ange in or out".

If we won the EL and then fired Ange, I think a lot of fans would have a lot of respect for the club. It would almost be them saying to the world that yes, we won the EL but this is not the level we want to be at. We need someone better. This season's league position will be forgotten because the focus will be on the new guy.

In the other scenario, Ange stays and that decision puts an enormous amount of pressure on the new leadership layer. If we waste a season because he crashes and burns then that leadership layer gets heavily questioned. This season won't be forgotten at all. It will be used against the leadership team long after Ange has gone.

However, if Ange stays and succeeds that new leadership layer will earn an amazing amount of trust. This season's league form will be totally forgotten.

I guess that is why these guys earn the big bucks. They have to make the call soon.

 

[tommysvr]

If we won the EL and then fired Ange, I think a lot of fans would have a lot of respect for the club. It would almost be them saying to the world that yes, we won the EL but this is not the level we want to be at. We need someone better. This season's league position will be forgotten because the focus will be on the new guy.

It would be so dumb. The criticisms have been “17 years no trophies.” We finally win one and say “well yeah but…”

I get that the league form has been truly awful, but it’s just such a terrible message to send as a club.

 

[RigorMortis]

I think this is a really thought provoking comment. It's certainly got me thinking. In my mind, this one truly relates to "Ange in or out".

If we won the EL and then fired Ange, I think a lot of fans would have a lot of respect for the club. It would almost be them saying to the world that yes, we won the EL but this is not the level we want to be at. We need someone better. This season's league position will be forgotten because the focus will be on the new guy.

In the other scenario, Ange stays and that decision puts an enormous amount of pressure on the new leadership layer. If we waste a season because he crashes and burns then that leadership layer gets heavily questioned. This season won't be forgotten at all. It will be used against the leadership team long after Ange has gone.

However, if Ange stays and succeeds that new leadership layer will earn an amazing amount of trust. This season's league form will be totally forgotten.

I guess that is why these guys earn the big bucks. They have to make the call soon.

The middle scenario is the least likely
As much as it’s been great in the europa to get this far, it’s not been an amazing journey like 2019, there have been no magic unforgettable moments like city or ajax or the nou camp. The calibre of opposition has been meh and at times we have been absolutely battered such as Galtasary away.

Kudos to Ange if we win it, it’s proved his point that he wins thing in his second season and protected his brand which seems to be his bigger concern than the best interests of our club( imo).

There is absolutely no way he should stay in the job if we win the Europa League, the body of evidence over the last 18 months and the shambolic performances we have witnessed, tell us all we need to know.