Ange in or out?

[Mikey10]

Just looking at Ange’s record as a manager, outside from his stint as Aussie national manager ( U21 and senior), he doesn’t hang around anywhere for long.
If we leave aside Celtic who were relatively dominant before and after Ange, is there anything to suggest he’s a man for a long term rebuild, given his average stint in club management is just a few years?

He won’t be hanging around with us. He’s a goner - probably in May, but earlier if things don’t get at least a bit better.

 

[billyiddo]

Just looking at Ange’s record as a manager, outside from his stint as Aussie national manager ( U21 and senior), he doesn’t hang around anywhere for long.
If we leave aside Celtic who were relatively dominant before and after Ange, is there anything to suggest he’s a man for a long term rebuild, given his average stint in club management is just a few years?

Suggests he doesn't need a squad/team full of his own players specialised in how he wants to play, as is an excuse here, that certainly wouldn't have been the case elsewhere if he's always winning stuff in his second season and moving on after his third.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Mane joined Southampton the summer Poch left

Yeah it was puncheon or Rodriguez who plays wide

 

[veryoldspur]

We need a manager who believes in the philosophy the club has built itself to execute for the last 2 seasons.
We do not need to flip like we did when we blew it and sacked Poch.

As much as I liked Poch he had lost the plot. We were losing week after week, and he had run out of time. There are very few managers who can stay at one club and keep things going indefinitely.

 

[Pandy]

As much as I liked Poch he had lost the plot. We were losing week after week, and he had run out of time. There are very few managers who can stay at one club and keep things going indefinitely.

He had lost the plot because he didn't have funds to rebuild, rather than not being up to the rebuild because he'd lost the plot.

Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sess was too little too late after the infamous £0 spend summer.

 

[Pandy]

Definately. But Johnson, Biss and Porro to name 3 can all go. Son is done sadly. Id also look to sell Romero.

This is absolutely comical.

Not sure how anyone can look at how this season has gone and come to the conclusion that our squad needs to be shallower.

I'd probably look to sell and upgrade on Bissouma, but we would have to sign about 10 players for the other 3 to to surplus to requirements next season.

 

[Mikey10]

This is absolutely comical.

Not sure how anyone can look at how this season has gone and come to the conclusion that our squad needs to be shallower.

I'd probably look to sell and upgrade on Bissouma, but we would have to sign about 10 players for the other 3 to to surplus to requirements next season.

We have regressed massively when it comes to our squad. Compare the one we have now to the one which we had for the CL final.

We have gambled on a lot of youth who may or may not come good. Aside from that, I'm not sure we have a single world class player. VDV maybe - hard to tell given the frequent injuries - otherwise, we have some good, and some very average, players.

 

[Bishop]

He had lost the plot because he didn't have funds to rebuild, rather than not being up to the rebuild because he'd lost the plot.

Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sess was too little too late after the infamous £0 spend summer.

*18 months.

 

[Welshspur60]

This is absolutely comical.

Not sure how anyone can look at how this season has gone and come to the conclusion that our squad needs to be shallower.

I'd probably look to sell and upgrade on Bissouma, but we would have to sign about 10 players for the other 3 to to surplus to requirements next season.

Our squad needs

Those three players were all excellent at their previous clubs, which tells us something, doesn't it? Anyway, what club wants to sell their highest scorer?

Sorry but i just cant see Johnson gives anything in games when he doesnt score a goal. Just nothing at all.

 

[veryoldspur]

Our squad needs
Sorry but i just cant see Johnson gives anything in games when he doesnt score a goal. Just nothing at all.

Ummm, I'd like to se him play for a better manager, and that goes for a fair few of our players

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Indeed, Poch was far more tactically flexible than given credit for...

I,m sure he once played a 4-4-2 away at the death star and sat back and gave up possession, we got a point. Highlighting fact that he saw that trying to go toe-to-toe possession wise with an opponent superior at it in their own back yard was daft...

 

[Finney Is Back]

Iraola has shown over the two seasons he has been here, he has far more potential than Ange in my opinion.
I can’t speak for all fans but I would certainly show far more patience as he has shown a far higher degree of competency than our current incumbent.

The meltdown is because the manager is not good enough

Not convinced. From what I have seen his system relies on chaos and his team outrunning the opposition. Just the same as Ange's does.

If we took on Iraola then I think we'd have a good first season (as we did under Ange) and would then struggle in the next season when we also had midweek european football to play.

I was probably the first person on here to suggest Iraola as the next Spurs manager. This was last season before our results went south. I said he was potentially somebody who could succeed Ange because his style of football is very, very similar to Ange's. However, since I've seen what happens when the number of games is upped considerably I'm less convinced.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think we have to look elsewhere if we do go looking.

I think we could only look to Iraola if he gets a team into European competition and shows that he can sustain the results when his team have to play twice a week (I seriously doubt his style of play can).

 

[Finney Is Back]

I would definately cast the net wider, i actually quite like the chap at Palace as well. However if it’s a straight choice between Iraola and Posteoglu, it’s a no brainer

Glasner is very good. Though his Frankfurt team relied very, VERY heavily on counter attack.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think there was one key part of the B'mouth first goal that confirmed to me why Ange needs to go. It is all to do with Bissouma and it is partially the player's fault. When we have that ball before the misplaced pass Bents and Sarr have gone forward quite centrally to support our overload.

What Bissouma should do - he should make sure he is sitting centrally in a number 6 position with a bias to the right side so if we do lose possession he can manage it as the number 6. What should have happened is Kirkez gets the ball and as he comes down our right, Biss sprints over and slows him down. Kirkez should have had to take Biss on to get to the byline. Kirkez shouldn't have had the freedom of our pitch to play that amazing ball.

What Bissouma did do - Bissouma saw that his 2 midfield mates had gone so went left into a vacant area so he could also be available for a pass if required to join the attack. That took him completely the wrong side of the centre circle to impact the defensive structure. He didn't even move to the inverted full-back position on the right. He moved to a position that was ahead of Spence who was at LB anyway. He just wanted to be involved in the attack.

Now I'm not saying that Biss would have stopped that goal. What I'm saying with 100% confidence that the chances of them scoring that goal massively reduce if he is being a proper number 6. I'm saying that is never a focus of Ange and his coaches on the training ground. I'm saying that we see this nonsense every week with the number 6 role.

I'm sick of Ange's arrogance when it comes to the manager playbook and defending. He needs his P45 because he is not adapting to the Prem.

It is a sign that our midfield players have poor positional sense. Whether that is one or more of them individually or them as a collective I'm not sure. It could be that the coaching is poor or it could be that the players just aren't particularly smart.

The weird thing is that it is seemingly a pretty easy tweak to make to our system. Ensure that one of the three midfield players always sits. Seems strange to me that this tweak hasn't been made. Maybe it has been made but the players aren't executing it or maybe it just hasn't been made at all? I wonder whether the issue is that there isn't a set person who has to the one who sits and the idea is that the person not joining the attack is situational but the players are disciplined enough to play that way.

Both @parklane1 and me have said for a long while that us getting a real, top class number 6 type midfield player would be transformational for us. Somebody who only needs to operate in a small section of the pitch, reads the game well and organises others. I don't see a single player like that in our squad at the moment. Archie Gray could become that player but it would be incredibly rare for one so young to be that player already.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So a serious question

- Is a long term plan linked to long term manager?
- There seems to be a perception that long term manager is the only route to success, I'm not sure I agree, at the top level, the often highlighted piece is Arteta (this point in his 5th season he has less points than Unai had in his first) and that is starting to look like a failure, will be 6 years, more than 600M spent and they haven't pushed on. Slot is likely to win more than one trophy in first year, Jose, Conte, Ange all had better first seasons with us than second ..

I think you talk about frustration (and my beef with club right now is "why is Ange still here"), but think we are mixing up eras/managers/finances to come to odd conclusions

- The great rebuild/refresh is pretty much done (it's taken 5 years and crossed all those managers)
- We have spent a lot money, and most of it very well, squad is well poised for future, with a few smart additions
- Biggest issue is avoiding managers who won't work with youth and/or club signings (that statement about Spence really hasn't aged well)

Iriola is obvious (and hopefully it is to club as well), but lets be clear

- Vic, Kinsky, Porro, Spence, Romero, Danso, Dragusin, VDV, Gray, Udogie, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison, Bergvall, Wilson, Son, Johnson, Solanke. 18 players with 4? over 27 (I'm assuming Forseter, Timo, Bissouma, Richi are out in summer)
- Moore, Donley, Vuskovich, Yang, Phillips, Keeley all to be looked at, incorporated into side over next year or two.
- DM, LB/LCB, RW and backup CF are obvious areas to add/upgrade
- There will be money in summer

Any decent manager willing to play a front foot style based on 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or even 3-5-2 could make this team function to top 6 level.

Look at what Moyes is doing at Everton, they are one point behind us and United after being dead and buried .. and he's just an ok manager.

Moyes is an excellent manager. He proved that at Everton previously and then West Ham.

 

[Raziel]

Moyes is an excellent manager. He proved that at Everton previously and then West Ham.

No, he's a good manager with a very defined ceiling. Manager equivalent of journeyman player, 6/10 consistently

His best record is first Everton stint and there are some very damning statistics in that overall record that highlights his limitations.

Not bricking on the guy, but he's not top tier or even 2nd tier in manager ranks

 

[monkeybarry]

He won’t be hanging around with us. He’s a goner - probably in May, but earlier if things don’t get at least a bit better.

Jeeez, that's a bit harsh

 

[Finney Is Back]

No, he's a good manager with a very defined ceiling. Manager equivalent of journeyman player, 6/10 consistently

His best record is first Everton stint and there are some very damning statistics in that overall record that highlights his limitations.

Not bricking on the guy, but he's not top tier or even 2nd tier in manager ranks

No he's an excellent manager. His performance at West Ham showed that.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I agree, especially this season. But I can only keep going back to my same points: Ange’s teams historically have struggled…until suddenly they don’t; injuries have robbed us of so much of that progression that we would have otherwise seen.



It’s a fair question. I said up front when I wanted him appointed that we needed at least 3 seasons to see the impact, so more time and more time with a full(ish) squad. I appreciate it’s hard when you’re watching us struggle every week, but that’s why I haven’t ridden the waves of results as much as others.

A couple of genuine questions:

1. You said eventually he goes on runs where he wins and never stops. But what makes you think he can do that in this league with a much higher standard of opposition?

2. Do you think the injuries will subside given what’s happened the last two seasons and after all the hamstrings injuries Celtic suffered when he was the manager? I guess my question is will we ever have a sustained period where we have a fully fit squad under this manager?