Well im not sure you're as accurate in your assesment of posters as you think you are so maybe you're best off
Fair play, haha. but I'm thinking of two or three in particular and I'm pretty sure I'm spot on
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I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool
- Thread starter SuprSi
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Fair play, haha. but I'm thinking of two or three in particular and I'm pretty sure I'm spot on
Well that brings me to a point the mods would like to reiterate - we've started to see an increase in posts which intend to split the posters on this board in to camps and group one set of opinions with another, we feel this is counter productive to good debate and only serves to create tension and a hostile atmosphere. If you have a problem with 'two or three' posters and their motives then call them out on it in the appropriate thread or via PM. By saying (as you did) that 'most the people saying XYZ... are also the ones that ABC...' you are grouping a lot of people in with the two or three that you have a problem with and i don't know about you but i don't like someone telling me why i thinking what i do, it also doesn't give that two or three a chance to counter you're accusations.
So please, everyone, stop with the Apol.ogists and '****ites' etc [emoji106]
So please, everyone, stop with the Apol.ogists and '****ites' etc [emoji106]
Fair play. Although i really don't have a problem with anyone here.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Heeeyyy, i got a mention!!! Good times
You sir get some rep.....
On a serious note, a reason why i am perceived as stubborn is cause i have complete faith in my past experiences, that isnt to say that i cant be wrong because i have made some of THE worst predictions in message board history.
My comment in the beginning was a simple one, which the lamela faithful at the time decided to jump on my case on, but it was something i believed at the time.
Thing is it was more an inquisitive comment and one that seeked clarification / explanation from someone who actually knows what they were talking about...NO ONE volunteered any explanation / in depth analysis on this kid for quite some time...just passive aggressive / sarcastic attacks. Naturally i got defensive and painted a bulls eye on lamela's back and watched him like a hawk.......he still didnt impress me THAT much to the tune of the hype and the transfer fee. In fact he seemed worse
The way i have come to understand and be 'cool' with our acquisition ? i just realised that everyone here is just a regular guy with their own personal filters and ways of expressing themselves.....so i ignored the UNWARRANTED HYPE on lamela.....check...then ignored the 30 million which can just as easily be down to shrewd negotiations , forecasting his contribution over a long footballing career life span as he is young, and the fact he tore **** up in 1 season in italy.....check.
But the last and final thing (and i would say the best tonic) that has made me see the good and potential in Lamela?.......
I lowered the bar / expectations considerably.
When you do that and you just take him at face value , you then suddenly DO see the potential of this guy and that he could easily surpass the bar that you lowered in the first place
i don't renounce my assessment of him after those first two games...i said what i thought at the time and i stand by it, but i do regret forcefully trying to harshly judge him based on fans expectation and money valuation.
he isnt a **** footballer...he is just one that is over thinking his actions and just hasn't connected with them in an subconscious way.
Bottom line? he is low on confidence and over compensating
I
indianspur
Guest
Keep him wide, keep feeding him the ball. Its very simple
Against Palace in the first half there was more of this and Lamela looked OK.
In central positions he is too easily crowded out and right now he doesn't have the quick feet and quick mind to deal with that.
Against Palace in the first half there was more of this and Lamela looked OK.
In central positions he is too easily crowded out and right now he doesn't have the quick feet and quick mind to deal with that.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
Aka he needs space in which to be effective and good movement so he can move into space - similar problems to Soldado and exactly the reason many good players don't make it in England.
He needs to adapt his game and use his abilities to be effective in this lge rather than trying to completely shoe horn his game into the lge.
Look at Hazard ( not Micky!) And Oscar and great examples.
And of course Bale - although his skill set is different so maybe a less good comparison.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
i dont think i agree with this if i'm honest mate
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
I would rather say very few attacking players make it England or elsewhere if not given space and movement around them.
There are exceptional players capable of producing magic on their own, but they're very few. And even those players are better with space and movement.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Now you're downgrading people to bring them in line with lamela
there are very few people that can make things happen consistently with little or no time and space but they do exist. Lamela is not on that level and hasn't shown much signs if any that he will get there. so lets not compare him to those
the next tier is the tier that lamela's predicted level should be hoping to get to....and that is to people that dont need much time and space to be effective in a match...as opposed to being largely nullified by taken those two ingredients away.
Lamela doesnt have the physical attributes of zaha and Bolasie so he cant really propel himself away from players; that added danger of players feeling they will get left for dead isnt there, but he isnt slow either....he is fast enough that he can make the most of his speed and skill and trickery to make something happen....there are players all around that can do this and lamela should be able to do this
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
What? Who am I downgrading? I'm no the one that brought up Hazard, I'm the one saying that that kind of player is very rare. I haven't said Lamela is on their level.
Space and time are not all or nothing ingredients. They fall along a continuum (like most things). A lack of it has been a fairly consistent problem for our attacking problems for some time. People are now complaining about Sigurdsson being sold, because look how good he is at Swansea. I think the main reason he looks better there is more space and more movement. Caused by a team that's better than us at creating it.
Is Bolasie the new Marko Marin? One good game against us and all of a sudden he's all the rage? I wonder what the reaction had been this summer if we had signed 25 year old Yannick Bolasie after his 0 goals, 4 assists in 23 starts last season. Of course total his assists and goals this season (3) and it's lower than Lamela's (4) despite Bolasie getting more game time.
Not saying Bolasie has nothing about him. Certainly looks a useful player. But from what I've seen so far he's looked a lot more like Townsend at QPR than a player that would change our fortunes right now. Is there any reason to think that Bolasie facing the (lack of) space and movement our attacking players had to deal with up against a team like Palace would do as well as he did with the time and space he got attacking on the break against us?
Rossi22
Pedro Mendes
Same, that sounds more like a tactic more suited to Townsend than Lamela.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Okay i am just going to start out by saying i like lamela and think he is one of the more naturally gifted / talented players in our team. And a hard worker...he is just low on confidence and this is affecting his develpoment
i personally think you are downgrading everyone that has played effectively as part of a team and contributed significantly to their teams output in this league that have played on the flank. By saying that there are very few people that can do that and only the exceptional ones are capable of doing that i think is misleading and it sort of sets up a bit of a straw man effect that makes it seem that people shouldnt expect their flank men to be effective in our league. Our league is known, and we should take pride in this, for not giving anyone , foreign or local, space and time. yet quite a few get on with it and play well
i wouldnt disagree with your conclusion about sigurdsson, but i will add that he was poorly utilised by us, plus if you look at sigurdsson at swansea...he is still actually playing the same game that he played with us but just with more responsibility and focus. As a squad player it was silly to sell him, but as a first team impact player i think the choice was right....if we are to get to 'THAT' level and he is not happy being rotated in a squad capacity then its his career choice to move.
As for time and space being an all or nothing combination of ingredients......sure i agree. why wouldnt i? nothing singular in football operates on its own in a vacuum, but i tend to focus on the points the poster is making...time and space is what was trending so i stuck to that if you get my meaning.
I disagree with the picture i felt your post was painting , in that if denied time and space then you would likely look like lamela has looked for us. i dont agree with that...james milner has looked effective in EVERY SINGLE team he has played for in every position people have put him in. this boy has little speed and little tricks up his sleeve...he has played for the best teams and a couple of dire ones yet his intelligence, his decision making , his ball utilisation skill and his movement have all been clear to see if you are willing to look.
I can only put that down to your ignorance of bolasie and a couple of people that have been vocal about him for some time (i am not one of them by the way). This season though i have been much more aware of him and what he offers. I dont think he is an amazing player overall...but i think he is an impactful one and one that stands out..primarily for his on ball antics and the fact that he isnt afraid to try and take the game over. If i had to choose between a lamela TYPE or Bolasie TYPE...i would chose lamela's TYPE all the time.
And yet despite the knock down bolasie is given by you, as i felt you generically put a lot of wide players from your previous comment, he is more effective and commanding and more of a contributor in games for his team than lamela is for ours.
Crystal palace outplayed us. Simple. Bolasie outplayed lamela. Simple. Yet we have the players with better marketed pedigree than palace. You partially stripping Bolasie down just makes me, cant speak for others, respond with "lamela was worse in that game and less use than bolasie was"
yes
1) there is , cause there was ample time we closed him out and he released the ball and moved again to retrieve it in space to do what he likes to
2) Bolasie is an impact player, almost likes to operate in isolation and on an island. so movement from his team, creating space for bolasie to work with aside and an option to receive a pass, is less of a necessity for him to do his thing and shine.
3) he has done it against most of the teams he has played against, so it isnt a one off. people have taken notice of his consistency this year
maybe a bolasie watch today? dont know who they are playing but we can see how he fares with his less 'perceived' talented team and how lamela fares against said team when we next play them
End of the day , i like lamela, i think he is talented and i think he has much more to offer..and i think he will. I just dont agree with the tactic of smearing or downsizing others and the situation to make it seem like he is doing more / better than okay and that he is acheiving his targets. Its a bloody low bar if what he is giving us now is what we should be expecting from him
i personally think you are downgrading everyone that has played effectively as part of a team and contributed significantly to their teams output in this league that have played on the flank. By saying that there are very few people that can do that and only the exceptional ones are capable of doing that i think is misleading and it sort of sets up a bit of a straw man effect that makes it seem that people shouldnt expect their flank men to be effective in our league. Our league is known, and we should take pride in this, for not giving anyone , foreign or local, space and time. yet quite a few get on with it and play well
i wouldnt disagree with your conclusion about sigurdsson, but i will add that he was poorly utilised by us, plus if you look at sigurdsson at swansea...he is still actually playing the same game that he played with us but just with more responsibility and focus. As a squad player it was silly to sell him, but as a first team impact player i think the choice was right....if we are to get to 'THAT' level and he is not happy being rotated in a squad capacity then its his career choice to move.
As for time and space being an all or nothing combination of ingredients......sure i agree. why wouldnt i? nothing singular in football operates on its own in a vacuum, but i tend to focus on the points the poster is making...time and space is what was trending so i stuck to that if you get my meaning.
I disagree with the picture i felt your post was painting , in that if denied time and space then you would likely look like lamela has looked for us. i dont agree with that...james milner has looked effective in EVERY SINGLE team he has played for in every position people have put him in. this boy has little speed and little tricks up his sleeve...he has played for the best teams and a couple of dire ones yet his intelligence, his decision making , his ball utilisation skill and his movement have all been clear to see if you are willing to look.
I can only put that down to your ignorance of bolasie and a couple of people that have been vocal about him for some time (i am not one of them by the way). This season though i have been much more aware of him and what he offers. I dont think he is an amazing player overall...but i think he is an impactful one and one that stands out..primarily for his on ball antics and the fact that he isnt afraid to try and take the game over. If i had to choose between a lamela TYPE or Bolasie TYPE...i would chose lamela's TYPE all the time.
And yet despite the knock down bolasie is given by you, as i felt you generically put a lot of wide players from your previous comment, he is more effective and commanding and more of a contributor in games for his team than lamela is for ours.
Crystal palace outplayed us. Simple. Bolasie outplayed lamela. Simple. Yet we have the players with better marketed pedigree than palace. You partially stripping Bolasie down just makes me, cant speak for others, respond with "lamela was worse in that game and less use than bolasie was"
yes
1) there is , cause there was ample time we closed him out and he released the ball and moved again to retrieve it in space to do what he likes to
2) Bolasie is an impact player, almost likes to operate in isolation and on an island. so movement from his team, creating space for bolasie to work with aside and an option to receive a pass, is less of a necessity for him to do his thing and shine.
3) he has done it against most of the teams he has played against, so it isnt a one off. people have taken notice of his consistency this year
maybe a bolasie watch today? dont know who they are playing but we can see how he fares with his less 'perceived' talented team and how lamela fares against said team when we next play them
End of the day , i like lamela, i think he is talented and i think he has much more to offer..and i think he will. I just dont agree with the tactic of smearing or downsizing others and the situation to make it seem like he is doing more / better than okay and that he is acheiving his targets. Its a bloody low bar if what he is giving us now is what we should be expecting from him
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I
indianspur
Guest
so where would you play Lamela?
I
indianspur
Guest
Bolasie would not be so effective at Spurs because our manager doesn't like players like him who hug the touchline. Warnock has his attackers providing real width, the instruction to attack fullbacks and get by them and provide crosses. This suits Bolasie.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
I
indianspur
Guest
If Lamela was playing for Palace, I'm sure Warnock would do exactly the same with him as he does with Bolasie. The instruction would be for Lamela to stay wide in order to receive the ball, his teammates would be instructed to give him as much of the ball as possible, and then when he did get it he would be encouraged to provide plenty of crosses and if he wanted to come inside and have shots. Basically, just simplify everything, something Redknapp is also good at. Yes we laugh at the " go out and run around a bit" aspect, but with many footballers its better to keep things simple, just get them doing the obvious things they are capable of, like Warnock is doing with Bolasie and the rest.
Lamela is just not effective at Spurs where he is told by Poch to play a more inverted role, when he receives the ball he is easily crowded out in the more central areas, there is little space for him to get the ball under control and do something with it. He gets frustrated, the fans get frustrated. He is exepcted to play quick one twos with teammates who are not on the same wavelength, expected to provide incisive through balls where there is barely any space to exploit, its just too complicated. He is not a David Silva, not a Hazard, not an Ozil or Cazorla.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Has Lamela mainly played wide and whipped in crosses at any time in his career? I don't watch a lot of Italian football but I thought that at Roma he was played very much as an inside forward and people thought that he would end up as a number ten.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
oddly enough, i agree with your solution to bringing lamela into the contributing fold statistically but i dont agree with your assessment that its for him to 'do a bolasie'
Those two are VERY different types of players and at this moment occupy very different positions on the pitch on average.
i think sometimes a common misconception that people have is that if you put someone on the wing then that person becomes a winger and provides wing play.
That isnt quite right, as braineclipse says there is a continuity in most things football.....bolasie occupies areas where he is told too but also cause i suspect he is comfortable out on the wing and ridiculously confident at the moment in his abilities to beat most full backs and cause direct damage. His speed and trickery right now makes him a nightmare to face up one v one....plus right now he plays in a system that suits him with players that know to give him the ball in situations that best highlight his abilities....but lamela is low on confidence , not as quick and not as good at beating people one v one from stationary from what i have seen.... and we dont build the team around him...we dont put moves together and keep and eye out to isolate him v the opposing full backs with time and space etc
..in transition and running at people lamela is a a bit of a beast!!!! they back off him, he freezes/ locks them to the spot, and looks for the telling team attacking pass. but thats far and few between and most of the time he doesnt get those luxuries
... i would say the answer is your solution BUT still in his more inverted role. why force him into an uncomfortable position on the field and take away from his strengths?
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
LOL