I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool

[spurspinter1]

It's clearly racist to attribute a particular type of activity to a racial group when it's common in all nationalities.

Keep on fighting the good fight Milo! It's mad that you had to type that but it's not clear for a lot of people clearly.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's clearly racist to attribute a particular type of activity to a racial group when it's common in all nationalities.

But the degree of cheating and/or certain types of cheating are worse in particular nations and leagues. Anyone who says cheating doesn’t happen here is talking BS. But IMO, the extent of it is worse
elsewhere. That’s what he should have said. Or some variation or nuanced version of that.

 

[glasgowspur]

That was kind of my point. To label embellishing contact as a Latin thing is no different to stating a thuggish foul as a Scottish thing. I think Sky have issued an apology since.

Exactly, for every souness there's a dave mackay, for every Keane there's a Liam Brady.
It's nothing to do with their place of birth, a clam is a clam, just as a gentleman is a gentleman.

 

[milo]

But the degree of cheating and/or certain types of cheating are worse in particular nations and leagues. Anyone who says cheating doesn’t happen here is talking BS. But IMO, the extent of it is worse
elsewhere. That’s what he should have said. Or some variation or nuanced version of that.

"The type of cheating that nation does is worse than the type of cheating my nation does" is also racist.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Keep on fighting the good fight Milo! It's mad that you had to type that but it's not clear for a lot of people clearly.

Or some people just disagree? Just because some people think something is racist doesn’t mean it is. Like when people call Alli lazy. Yes sometimes it is an ugly stereotype but some people probably just think he’s lazy regardless of his skin colour. Tbf I don’t think Alli is lazy at all. I’ve seen nothing to question his commitment or work ethic and I’ve never seen him slack off during games.

 

[Jurgen the German]

"The type of cheating that nation does is worse than the type of cheating my nation does" is also racist.

tell me exactly how that is racist?

Do you truthfully believe that cheating is the same in every league and it’s not worse in particular leagues? You don’t think cheating is worse in the premier league than in league 2 for example? I’ve been to lower league games and from the ones I’ve seen live you don’t get the same level of play acting and feigning injury as you do in the PL.

 

[milo]

tell me exactly how that is racist?

Do you truthfully believe that cheating is the same in every league and it’s not worse in particular leagues? You don’t think cheating is worse in the premier league than in league 2 for example? I’ve been to lower league games and from the ones I’ve seen live you don’t get the same level of play acting and feigning injury as you do in the PL.

I think that cheating happens at all levels of the game and in all countries. What I think is racist is singling out one culture or nationality as being worse than others. I don't see any difference between exaggerating contact to gain a penalty and what Lamela did. One happens every week and Sky Sports pundits will celebrate English players doing it.

 

[Modric THFC]

tell me exactly how that is racist?

Do you truthfully believe that cheating is the same in every league and it’s not worse in particular leagues? You don’t think cheating is worse in the premier league than in league 2 for example? I’ve been to lower league games and from the ones I’ve seen live you don’t get the same level of play acting and feigning injury as you do in the PL.

You don't get less cheating. Just different forms of it.

 

[Grays_1890]

Or some people just disagree? Just because some people think something is racist doesn’t mean it is. Like when people call Alli lazy. Yes sometimes it is an ugly stereotype but some people probably just think he’s lazy regardless of his skin colour. Tbf I don’t think Alli is lazy at all. I’ve seen nothing to question his commitment or work ethic and I’ve never seen him slack off during games.

Huge difference calling Alli lazy and not using race and using Latino to suggest more likely to cheat than others.

The comparable example would be just calling Lamela a cheat and Alli lazy

 

[spurspinter1]

Or some people just disagree? Just because some people think something is racist doesn’t mean it is. Like when people call Alli lazy. Yes sometimes it is an ugly stereotype but some people probably just think he’s lazy regardless of his skin colour. Tbf I don’t think Alli is lazy at all. I’ve seen nothing to question his commitment or work ethic and I’ve never seen him slack off during games.

You've got to want to understand it, to stand any chance because it's a constantly evolving process but you seem to be miles off it mate.

I have no idea why you have linked Dele being "lazy" as having anything to do with ethnicity. I'm not even if sure if you're serious, "some probably think he's lazy regardless of his skin colour". Que?!?!?!?!

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think that cheating happens at all levels of the game and in all countries. What I think is racist is singling out one culture or nationality as being worse than others. I don't see any difference between exaggerating contact to gain a penalty and what Lamela did. One happens every week and Sky Sports pundits will celebrate English players doing it.

Some forms of cheating are worse than others. Just as some fouls are worse than others. Example, Luke Shaw scything Moura down is worse than pulling someone’s shirt and should have been a red card. British pundits have always been hypocrites when it comes to English players cheating. They never talk about vardy or Steven Gerrard diving. I’ve also always felt pundits go easy on English players in general compared to foreign players in the PL. They’ll never really go after someone like Harry Maguire or John Stones compared to David Luiz for example. Whether their motives are racist or not I don’t know but it’s something I’ve noticed for years.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You've got to want to understand it, to stand any chance because it's a constantly evolving process but you seem to be miles off it mate.

I have no idea why you have linked Dele being "lazy" as having anything to do with ethnicity. I'm not even if sure if you're serious, "some probably think he's lazy regardless of his skin colour". Que?!?!?!?!

Im saying that accusing someone of racism isn’t always appropriate or factually accurate.

I brought up Alli because I’ve seen some tag him “lazy” or “flash” which some posters have taken exception to and have accused others of stereotyping for obvious reasons. Ok, in some instances it’s more than likely correct, but it’s wrong IMO to label anyone who makes those claims about Alli to be stereotyping.

 

[spurspinter1]

Im saying that accusing someone of racism isn’t always appropriate or factually accurate.

I bought up Alli because I’ve seen some tag him “lazy” or “flash” which some posters have taken exception to and have accused others of stereotyping for obvious reasons. Ok, in some instances it’s more than likely correct, but it’s wrong IMO to label anyone who makes those claims about Alli to be stereotyping.

Why are you saying this though? If someone isn't racist it isn't appropriate to call them racist, yeah I don't think that is the most pertinent statement (and I don't mean that as a dig at you even though it could very well come off as one).

There's been so so many discussions on this and I might be getting mixed up poster wise and either way it's always good to give a clean slate but I may be best off not getting in to this discussion tonight if I'm correct on what I vaguely recall and honest to GHod I still don't understand the angle with Dele and what you are saying is okay and what isn't.

I don't want to get in to the war of semantics and I'm also by no means an authority on race relations having potentially said some pretty stupid brick in my time too.

 

[RunTMC]

Ok guys it’s been a good discussion but let’s call a time out and head back to our corners. It’s going seriously off topic and maybe can be discussed in another thread.

Rather than the Lamela (greatest brickhouser of all time) thread

 

[milo]

Some forms of cheating are worse than others. Just as some fouls are worse than others. Example, Luke Shaw scything Moura down is worse than pulling someone’s shirt and should have been a red card. British pundits have always been hypocrites when it comes to English players cheating. They never talk about vardy or Steven Gerrard diving. I’ve also always felt pundits go easy on English players in general compared to foreign players in the PL. They’ll never really go after someone like Harry Maguire or John Stones compared to David Luiz for example. Whether their motives are racist or not I don’t know but it’s something I’ve noticed for years.

I think motives are irrelevant in this case. What Souness said is racist. I am not saying that he is a racist, I have no idea about that, but what he said on Sunday was. It was lazy, racial, stereotyping.

I don't agree that one form of cheating is worse than others, although I think that you would have a case if you said that some types are considered more acceptable in the British game. I think that this is hypocrisy, all forms of cheating are done to gain a competitive advantage.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Why are you saying this though? If someone isn't racist it isn't appropriate to call them racist, yeah I don't think that is the most pertinent statement (and I don't mean that as a dig at you even though it could very well come off as one).

There's been so so many discussions on this and I might be getting mixed up poster wise and either way it's always good to give a clean slate but I may be best off not getting in to this discussion tonight if I'm correct on what I vaguely recall and honest to GHod I still don't understand the angle with Dele and what you are saying is okay and what isn't.

I don't want to get in to the war of semantics and I'm also by no means an authority on race relations having potentially said some pretty stupid brick in my time too.

Let me clarify re Alli. It’s been mentioned in the Alli thread that he has become “lazy”, “distracted by outside commitments” among other things. Some posters have taken exception with this and say it’s just ugly stereotyping to players from particular races or backgrounds. For the record, if people are stereotyping it should absolutely be condemned for what it is. But I think it’s wrong to blanket accuse anyone who makes the claim about Alli to be racist when you don’t know their motivations or reasons for saying it. Especially on a forum where there is not as much nuance as in real life discussions.

If I have offended anyone I apologise and I don’t want to come across as an apologist for Souness, he’s a dinosaur although he sometimes says things I agree with. He’s old school. Possibly with some archaic views. But I do also think people wouldn’t be getting so upset about what he said if he had made the claim whilst talking about Firmino or aguero for example. Would racism even be being talked about? I don’t know.

 

[spurspinter1]

Let me clarify re Alli. It’s been mentioned in the Alli thread that he has become “lazy”, “distracted by outside commitments” among other things. Some posters have taken exception with this and say it’s just ugly stereotyping to players from particular races or backgrounds. For the record, if people are stereotyping it should absolutely be condemned for what it is. But I think it’s wrong to blanket accuse anyone who makes the claim about Alli to be racist when you don’t know their motivations or reasons for saying it. Especially on a forum where there is not as much nuance as in real life discussions.

If I have offended anyone I apologise and I don’t want to come across as an apologist for Souness, he’s a dinosaur although he sometimes says things I agree with. He’s old school. Possibly with some archaic views. But I do also think people wouldn’t be getting so upset about what he said if he had made the claim whilst talking about Firmino or aguero for example. Would racism even be being talked about? I don’t know.

I'm sure we'd find a way anyhow

Right...I just hadn't seen people stating that the negative comments were due to Dele's race or anything like that. You can call Dele lazy sure enough, but the problem is thinking that he is lazy because he is black or that it's linked in anyway. It goes both ways as it seems ridiculous to not be able to mention a black player's physical attributes going by that study in to commentary...

Firminio and Aguero are both from South America so it wouldn't make any difference what Sounness said as he went in hard on the culture not the individual, that is the problem I have with his sweeping statement.

If Sounness had just laid in to Lamela and called him a cheat / disgrace / whatever then it's reasonable, however he pointed his blunderbuss over at a whole culture with no goo reason. He made it about race.

Ok guys it’s been a good discussion but let’s call a time out and head back to our corners. It’s going seriously off topic and maybe can be discussed in another thread.

Rather than the Lamela (greatest brickhouser of all time) thread

Surely we're all in the same corner here no?

 

[Grays_1890]

Let me clarify re Alli. It’s been mentioned in the Alli thread that he has become “lazy”, “distracted by outside commitments” among other things. Some posters have taken exception with this and say it’s just ugly stereotyping to players from particular races or backgrounds. For the record, if people are stereotyping it should absolutely be condemned for what it is. But I think it’s wrong to blanket accuse anyone who makes the claim about Alli to be racist when you don’t know their motivations or reasons for saying it. Especially on a forum where there is not as much nuance as in real life discussions.

If I have offended anyone I apologise and I don’t want to come across as an apologist for Souness, he’s a dinosaur although he sometimes says things I agree with. He’s old school. Possibly with some archaic views. But I do also think people wouldn’t be getting so upset about what he said if he had made the claim whilst talking about Firmino or aguero for example. Would racism even be being talked about? I don’t know.

But calling Alli lazy isn't referencing his race unless you say he is lazy because XYZ

Souness clearly uses race as a reason for cheating, had he just said Lamela is a cheat THEN Its the same as purely calling Alli lazy. He didn't though he referenced his ethnicity to cheating

Again referencing Latino was utterly pointless

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

The way the south american and central american teams played at the last world cup really put me off them.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think motives are irrelevant in this case. What Souness said is racist. I am not saying that he is a racist, I have no idea about that, but what he said on Sunday was. It was lazy, racial, stereotyping.

I don't agree that one form of cheating is worse than others, although I think that you would have a case if you said that some types are considered more acceptable in the British game. I think that this is hypocrisy, all forms of cheating are done to gain a competitive advantage.

Some forms of cheating result in a yellow card as per the rules and some result in a red card so I’d disagree that some forms of cheating aren’t worse than others. Absolutely agree some types are considered more acceptable in British football than others. I think that’s just because we have a different outlook on the game. It’s totally subjective to say one way is right and one is wrong of course. Was reading an article earlier about players like Luis Suarez grew up in tough neighbourhoods and have just learnt to do whatever it takes to make sure you don’t lose. I’ll try and find the article