Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[braineclipse]

We were like 3 points off 5th or something, 14th 12 games in to a season means nothing.

Our league form had been that poor since February when Poch left. The place was an absolute mess, and it was a lot worse than 3 points off 5th makes it sound.

Interesting looking at the lineup for Pochettino's last game and the game last night. Lloris, Davies, Dier, Sanchez, Aurier, Sissoko, Alli and Kane all starting both games.

 

[Mikey10]

We were like 3 points off 5th or something, 14th 12 games in to a season means nothing.

Whereas playing like brick in the PL for the best part of a year before Pochettino left probably does carry some water.

Anyway, I'm not really into discussing the Poch thing. He's gone. I'm interested in the here and now - and how (largely) the same group of players aren't up to their jobs.

 

[Yiddo]

He been sacked yet?

 

[Finney Is Back]

They couldn’t have
Although their prep for the game was miles better too (training in heat vs a team set up like us)
They had much more nous than us on and off the pitch for that final
They learned their lesson the previous season

I’m really not sure Liverpool playing a friendly had any bearing on the game. Friendlies are played with zero intensity. I think we had a good start to the PL this season as we’d played 3 proper competitive games while our opponents had just played friendlies.

Liverpool beat us in the CL as they had a better team than us, as evidenced by them finishing many points above us that season and then doing so again the following season, seasons in which they won all 4 of their PL games against us. I expect Liverpool were shorter odds favourites for that final against us than Real,Madrid were against previous season.

We were better than Liverpool for a couple of seasons before that but Liverpool’s owners pushed the boat out to go and get the players that their manager wanted (including two players that our manager wanted), unfortunately our owners didn’t do the same. When teams don’t try to improve at all they will regress instead of standing still as the other teams all around them are always trying to improve.

Hopefully our owners have learned and if they happen to stumble across another manager who can massively outperform their wage bill and transfer budget level they will back him instead of expecting them to be able to continue to achieve something that is very, very hard indeed.

 

[SpurMeUp]

With Poch you had a manager who’d get the most from a ‘bad bunch’ (suboptimal squad ie not all elite level players). Mentioned it when Mourinho took over, we lost that ability to elevate average players when he left.

The thing is, you can only polish a player so much. With Mourinho he won’t spend the time developing players. It’s win or bust. At the moment we’re bust, but in some ways it’s a quicker route to success. Provided the team can be upgraded.

The fans get this. What they don’t get is the lack of cohesion and personality in the 11 and the lack of attacking plans. You can see why Mourinho has set us up to be a defensive first side - every winning team has a defensive foundation. But when we’re caught between ‘being attacking’ with a coach who emphasises and practices defending, it’s mixed messages and a clash of ethos.

Is there a way forward with Mourinho? It is hard to fathom it. He needs a minimum of 100m to upgrade our CBs and midfield, as well as solves our over reliance on Kane and Son for goals. But any manager would face the same. Some would paper over the cracks better than Mourinho there is no doubt. If you want to fix it, sometimes it has to be break first.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Finney Is Back]

So you agree, it’s the harder of the two games?

This final against Emirates Marketing Project may be harder than that CL final game, it depends on how seriously Emirates Marketing Project take the game I think (as this is very much a 4th priority competition for them right now).

It isn’t necessarily harder because this Emirates Marketing Project team are better than that Liverpool team that we faced in Madrid. It is harder as we are a fair amount worse now then we were back then. We don’t have worse players now than we did then, we actually have at least 3 or 4 who are better than their counterparts back then. The problem is that our team now has no discernible tactics or patterns of play that I can make out.

One thing I can confidently say is that Dinamo Zagreb are a far worse side than any single team we faced in the CL that season, yet we just got a 3-0 thrashing off of them. We also got that 3-0 thrashing off of them in a competition that it is appears to me that Jose was pinning most of his hopes on winning for us to get CL football.

 

[braineclipse]

I’m really not sure Liverpool playing a friendly had any bearing on the game. Friendlies are played with zero intensity. I think we had a good start to the PL season as we’d played 3 proper competitive games while our opponents had just played friendlies.

Liverpool beat us in the CL as they had a better team than us, as evidenced by them finishing many points above us that season and the following season, seasons in which they won all 4 of their PL games against us. We were better than Liverpool for a couple of seasons before that but their owners pushed the boat out to buy the players that their manager wanted (including two players that our manager wanted), unfortunately our owners didn’t do the same. When teams don’t try to improve at all they will regress instead of standing still as the other teams all around them are always trying to improve.

Hopefully our owners have learned and if they happen to stumble across another manager who can massively outperform their wage bill and transfer budget level they will back him instead of expecting them to be able to continue to achieve something that is very, very hard indeed.

I'm not convinced Pochettino would have lasted even if he had gotten more backing earlier. The likelihood probably increases, but by how much I'm not sure.

Most managers have an expiration date these days, Pochettino is yet to show that he can go against that trend.

He got some real gems in early on, after that our transfer business wasn't great. If he had been backed more to get more signings like Sanchez, Sissoko, Janssen etc in it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

When he was eventually backed (in part of course because of his success on the pitch) we solved exactly zero of the immediate problems facing the squad. We spent £140m+ with no short term solutions for anything.

I know if the starting point is that Pochettino was awesome in all ways the cause of him getting sacked must be found elsewhere. For all his strengths, and there were many, making big money signings for a quick solution to an immediate problem is at the very least not one he's shown to date.

Perhaps if he had been allowed to find more long term solutions earlier it would have worked out, but it may very well not have as well.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm not convinced Pochettino would have lasted even if he had gotten more backing earlier. The likelihood probably increases, but by how much I'm not sure.

Most managers have an expiration date these days, Pochettino is yet to show that he can go against that trend.

He got some real gems in early on, after that our transfer business wasn't great. If he had been backed more to get more signings like Sanchez, Sissoko, Janssen etc in it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

When he was eventually backed (in part of course because of his success on the pitch) we solved exactly zero of the immediate problems facing the squad. We spent £140m+ with no short term solutions for anything.

I know if the starting point is that Pochettino was awesome in all ways the cause of him getting sacked must be found elsewhere. For all his strengths, and there were many, making big money signings for a quick solution to an immediate problem is at the very least not one he's shown to date.

Perhaps if he had been allowed to find more long term solutions earlier it would have worked out, but it may very well not have as well.

What about Mane, Wjinaldum, Bruno Fernandes and Grealish?

When he was (finally) backed the chairman gave him zero time with those new players before sacking him. You can’t go a whole year without a signing, then finally give a manger 3 signings and sack him before he can integrate them.

Anyway.... what’s done is done now WRT Pochettino. The owners just need to learn from their mistakes, jettison the current manager who seems to have no system at all, make the right appointment next up and properly back that manager in the market with both buys and also getting rid of players that the new manager doesn’t want.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I’m really not sure Liverpool playing a friendly had any bearing on the game. Friendlies are played with zero intensity. I think we had a good start to the PL this season as we’d played 3 proper competitive games while our opponents had just played friendlies.

Liverpool beat us in the CL as they had a better team than us, as evidenced by them finishing many points above us that season and then doing so again the following season, seasons in which they won all 4 of their PL games against us. I expect Liverpool were shorter odds favourites for that final against us than Real,Madrid were against previous season.

We were better than Liverpool for a couple of seasons before that but Liverpool’s owners pushed the boat out to go and get the players that their manager wanted (including two players that our manager wanted), unfortunately our owners didn’t do the same. When teams don’t try to improve at all they will regress instead of standing still as the other teams all around them are always trying to improve.

Hopefully our owners have learned and if they happen to stumble across another manager who can massively outperform their wage bill and transfer budget level they will back him instead of expecting them to be able to continue to achieve something that is very, very hard indeed.

It’s more than playing one game... they trained against that team several times, in the heat too.
Ignoring their qualities they were better prepared. They had experience of playing in that scenario and we didn’t.
poch will have learned from that I’m sure

 

[Bishop]

I'm not convinced Pochettino would have lasted even if he had gotten more backing earlier. The likelihood probably increases, but by how much I'm not sure.

Most managers have an expiration date these days, Pochettino is yet to show that he can go against that trend.

He got some real gems in early on, after that our transfer business wasn't great. If he had been backed more to get more signings like Sanchez, Sissoko, Janssen etc in it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

When he was eventually backed (in part of course because of his success on the pitch) we solved exactly zero of the immediate problems facing the squad. We spent £140m+ with no short term solutions for anything.

I know if the starting point is that Pochettino was awesome in all ways the cause of him getting sacked must be found elsewhere. For all his strengths, and there were many, making big money signings for a quick solution to an immediate problem is at the very least not one he's shown to date.

Perhaps if he had been allowed to find more long term solutions earlier it would have worked out, but it may very well not have as well.

I don't really want to go over the whole Poch thing again but it has to be said that if he had been backed we would never have signed Sissoko in the first place. That was a player bought by the chairman in desperation after missing out on the manager's actual targets. Janssen was a gamble that we should be taking, it didn't pan out but thems the breaks. You win some (Son) and you lose some.

 

[braineclipse]

What about Mane, Wjinaldum, Bruno Fernandes and Grealish?

When he was (finally) backed the chairman gave him zero time with those new players before sacking him. You can’t go a whole year without a signing, then finally give a manger 3 signings and sack him before he can integrate them.

Anyway.... what’s done is done now WRT Pochettino. The owners just need to learn from their mistakes, jettison the current manager who seems to have no system at all, make the right appointment next up and properly back that manager in the market with both buys and also getting rid of players that the new manager doesn’t want.

All clubs will have examples of players they could and should have signed.

Bruno Fernandes is one example. I don't think it was ever an option to sign him, GLC and Ndombele. Particularly without selling Eriksen. So we needed a decision, the decision seems to have been GLC and Ndombele. If Pochettino was against that, argued for Fernandes instead, fair enough. I don't see how you know that.

We should have also signed X player type arguments doesn't really do it for me.

Part of the job for the manager and recruitment department is to identify players that will work even if your first choice isn't possible for whatever reason.

I wanted Wijnaldum, but got Sissoko type arguments similarly doesn't do it for me. Why was Sissoko on the list in the first place? Why didn't the manager veto it? Why weren't there more players like Wijnaldum on the list?

Hey, perhaps Mourinho just got super lucky and all the players he wanted were his first choice players for those positions. I somehow doubt it. Hojbjerg was a great buy, in part because we were able to identify a player we could actually sign. If he went to Liverpool it would have been up to Mourinho and the recruitment department to identify a similar player, several similar players, players we could sign.

I'm sure there are players we could have gotten over the line. Part of the job of the manager and recruitment department is identifying those players we should push the boat out on, over and above other players we are "interested in". Perhaps Pochettino did that with Grealish and Levy just stubbornly didn't listen. No way to know.

Regardless the job is then to identify other players that fit in, that solves problems rather than becomes one. It's difficult, being good in these areas means outperforming others, not being perfect.

Pochettino started very well in the transfer market, at a time when we could gamble on cheaper players and it didn't take that much to improve on players in our starting 11 because we weren't very good. As the job became spending more money, getting real quality in to make a quick impact on an already good team he didn't do as well. It was difficult, it is difficult, but he didn't do particularly well.

It left us in a bit of a mess sadly.

 

[billyiddo]

So what does that say about us?

What set of skills and experience do we need to hire to get us over the line?

We need to get to a point where we can see the line first

 

[Raziel]

This final against Emirates Marketing Project may be harder than that CL final game, it depends on how seriously Emirates Marketing Project take the game I think (as this is very much a 4th priority competition for them right now).

It isn’t necessarily harder because this Emirates Marketing Project team are better than that Liverpool team that we faced in Madrid. It is harder as we are a fair amount worse now then we were back then. We don’t have worse players now than we did then, we actually have at least 3 or 4 who are better than their counterparts back then. The problem is that our team now has no discernible tactics or patterns of play that I can make out.

One thing I can confidently say is that Dinamo Zagreb are a far worse side than any single team we faced in the CL that season, yet we just got a 3-0 thrashing off of them. We also got that 3-0 thrashing off of them in a competition that it is appears to me that Jose was pinning most of his hopes on winning for us to get CL football.

The only thing I'd say (and it makes no sense logically) is we have often been City's bogey side, where as our results over the years against Pool are awful

 

[braineclipse]

I don't really want to go over the whole Poch thing again but it has to be said that if he had been backed we would never have signed Sissoko in the first place. That was a player bought by the chairman in desperation after missing out on the manager's actual targets. Janssen was a gamble that we should be taking, it didn't pan out but thems the breaks. You win some (Son) and you lose some.

Then the manager didn't have enough players targeted.

If we identify that we need X type player we need to be able to identify several players that fit that. Some more ambitious, harder to get, others that are easier to sign, but still fit in.

How it was ever decided that an approach of being brave on the ball would work well when signing players that are poor on the ball I struggle to understand.

If people want to point the blame for that solely on Levy, fair enough.

 

[Bishop]

So what does that say about us?

What set of skills and experience do we need to hire to get us over the line?

What it says is that we aren't Chelsea in 04 with a rich billionaire willing to spend whatever it takes. What it says is we aren't Inter a team that had already won Seria A 3 years on the trot before Jose even joined again with a billionaire willing to spend whatever it takes. We aren't Real Madrid in 2010 desperate to catch Barcelona and guess what again willing to spend whatever it takes. Even then they won the league but not the coveted CL. We aren't Chelsea in 14 again loads of money spent to win or United after with 400m spent to win a few cups.

We neither have the winning experience all of his success clubs have had or the money to fill in the gaps. What makes you so certain that he is suited for role, nothing in his career suggests he's the man to take a club to winning level of they weren't already there.

Now I know someone will mention Porto but again they were the dominant side in their league and he did amazingly well there but they were a side used to winning, a club steeped in winning in fact and the euro comps are cups with a big degree of luck involved. It's not as if he did it with Boavista.

Again, I think he's had a fantastic career but I see nothing in his pedigree that suggests he has the magic ingredient to take us over the line. Unless of course Levy changes his MO entirely.

 

[harr1984]

What about Mane, Wjinaldum, Bruno Fernandes and Grealish?

when he was (finally) backed the chairman gave him zero time with those new players before sacking him. You can’t go a whole year without a signing, then finally give a manger 3 signings and sack him before he can integrate them.

Anyway.... what’s done is done now WRT Pochettino. The owners just need to learn from their mistakes, jettison the current manager who seems to have no system at all, make the right appointment next up and properly back that manager in the market with both buys and also getting rid of players that the new manager doesn’t want.

Poch was emotionally spent, everyone on here could see it so obviously Levy could too. The fact Levy chose to part ways with him wasn’t just down to poor results in the final year or so. It was best for all parties involved unfortunately, maybe Mourinho wasn’t the best replacement but the sacking of Poch wasn’t wrong....

All clubs will have examples of players they could and should have signed.

Bruno Fernandes is one example. I don't think it was ever an option to sign him, GLC and Ndombele. Particularly without selling Eriksen. So we needed a decision, the decision seems to have been GLC and Ndombele. If Pochettino was against that, argued for Fernandes instead, fair enough. I don't see how you know that.

We should have also signed X player type arguments doesn't really do it for me.

Part of the job for the manager and recruitment department is to identify players that will work even if your first choice isn't possible for whatever reason.

I wanted Wijnaldum, but got Sissoko type arguments similarly doesn't do it for me. Why was Sissoko on the list in the first place? Why didn't the manager veto it? Why weren't there more players like Wijnaldum on the list?

Hey, perhaps Mourinho just got super lucky and all the players he wanted were his first choice players for those positions. I somehow doubt it. Hojbjerg was a great buy, in part because we were able to identify a player we could actually sign. If he went to Liverpool it would have been up to Mourinho and the recruitment department to identify a similar player, several similar players, players we could sign.

I'm sure there are players we could have gotten over the line. Part of the job of the manager and recruitment department is identifying those players we should push the boat out on, over and above other players we are "interested in". Perhaps Pochettino did that with Grealish and Levy just stubbornly didn't listen. No way to know.

Regardless the job is then to identify other players that fit in, that solves problems rather than becomes one. It's difficult, being good in these areas means outperforming others, not being perfect.

Pochettino started very well in the transfer market, at a time when we could gamble on cheaper players and it didn't take that much to improve on players in our starting 11 because we weren't very good. As the job became spending more money, getting real quality in to make a quick impact on an already good team he didn't do as well. It was difficult, it is difficult, but he didn't do particularly well.

It left us in a bit of a mess sadly.

indeed, outside of Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea no one can get their first choice targets often. And if Levy kept giving Poch players he didn’t want, why didn’t he quit like any self respecting manager would? Poch had to adapt to not getting his main targets often just like 90-95% of managers do, and he did damn well with what he had. But this oh we would have signed these five amazing players then would have won things with Poch doesn’t wash - a lot of clubs fans could claim this about their clubs....

 

[billyiddo]

When he was eventually backed (in part of course because of his success on the pitch) we solved exactly zero of the immediate problems facing the squad. We spent £140m+ with no short term solutions for anything.

This isn't true, we had plenty of fires to put out in that squad and Ndombele + Lo celso addressed two of them. Arguably if he was taking a long term view to Roses replacement Sessegnon addressed a third. Much like last summer we couldn't cover all bases in one window

 

[Baleforce]

What it says is that we aren't Chelsea in 04 with a rich billionaire willing to spend whatever it takes. What it says is we aren't Inter a team that had already won Seria A 3 years on the trot before Jose even joined again with a billionaire willing to spend whatever it takes. We aren't Real Madrid in 2010 desperate to catch Barcelona and guess what again willing to spend whatever it takes. Even then they won the league but not the coveted CL. We aren't Chelsea in 14 again loads of money spent to win or United after with 400m spent to win a few cups.

We neither have the winning experience all of his success clubs have had or the money to fill in the gaps. What makes you so certain that he is suited for role, nothing in his career suggests he's the man to take a club to winning level of they weren't already there.

Now I know someone will mention Porto but again they were the dominant side in their league and he did amazingly well there but they were a side used to winning, a club steeped in winning in fact and the euro comps are cups with a big degree of luck involved. It's not as if he did it with Boavista.

Again, I think he's had a fantastic career but I see nothing in his pedigree that suggests he has the magic ingredient to take us over the line. Unless of course Levy changes his MO entirely.

I think we were already one step away, we folded on two title chases and lost the CL final, we had laid the first 999 pieces of the jigsaw.

 

[Mikey10]

This final against Emirates Marketing Project may be harder than that CL final game, it depends on how seriously Emirates Marketing Project take the game I think (as this is very much a 4th priority competition for them right now).

We have zero chance in this game. We don't have the mentality.

 

[Baleforce]

We have zero chance in this game. We don't have the meteorology.

You'll be able to see it on the player's faces before a ball is kicked, most of them have already decided what to do with their runners up medals.