Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

CM is still a problem until proven otherwise. Ndombele looks the business but Sissoko and Winks as the other components are not good enough at the roles they are being tasked with. Lo Celso may well be the missing link but until we see him in that role then it's far from fixed and is currently the biggest problem area for this team (as per usual).

Theres a couple of angles of attack on that point.

1) Yes, its clearly not optimum with the players at hand
2) What is the manager doing about it?

1) should resolve itself in time, 2) is the immediate issue for me. When there are problems in a side its the managers job to mitigate them.

I dont believe the narrative of "poor Poch HAS to play Winks as a DM..." holds any real weight. Especially when it seems Poch hasnt even tried to work on it.

I admire the optimism and hope you are correct, history suggests otherwise, I can't recall a team recovering after that kind of beating at home.

Unfortunately the path is well travelled, we will likely have a reaction on week-end (player's pride), we will revert to fluctuating results until the next really bad result or two ends it.

At this point I'm amazed he's here now, end of season would be an amazing achievement from here.

I suspect you are right and Liverpool (away, 27th) will be brutal. Possibly the last straw?

A very good RB and a fit dier or wanyama and I think we would be no worse than 3rd in the league and 2nd in CL group. That would buy us a season, season and a half to get ndom and GLC up to speed and move on and replace eriksen, Toby, rose, sissoko, aurier. All of whom at the minute are first team picks, think about and tell me that's not a team in decline.

I really dont think it is.

Think about the players available, you telling me this is as good as it gets?

Sanchez only played RB against arsenal because of injury otherwise I'm sure KWP would have played. Also in his absence you may be overrating KWP, he has himself had awful games. I honestly don't think any RB we have would have coped against Bayern. We would have needed Walkers recovery pace to cope. Trippier would have been toasted and KWP likely bamboozled. RB is not in a strong place.

Ive been sceptical on KWP all along, not a fan boy and certainly not in an "absence makes the heart grow fonder..." situation.

He is a RB though. A steady one. Not perfect, but IMO the best of a bad bunch kind of option.

BM specifically, you are right. Both FBs were hung out to try so it makes little difference for Tuesday.

He choose to play a diamond right, he would have three players who could play there but 2 for whatever reasons are unable to play so he HAD one choice Winks so you are wrong and he was forced to play Winks because the other two were not able to.

As for the strawman gonad*s and me blanket brandishing all fans as fickle then you are really stretching the point. You disagree that is your choice but imo your opinions on this are wrong.

When people are making reasoned points about how and why they think what they do, it is absolutely a strawman argument to wade in and accuse the masses of being fickle.

He was only forced to play Winks as he did (does?) because he insists on playing the diamond. That is a self inflicted constraint. Therefore, not a "woe is poor old Poch" situation. If he doesnt have the players to effectively play a diamond (he doesnt) then he should be finding a formation he does have the players to succeed with.

 

[StephenH]

If your fullbacks are weak, protect them or change them. If your central defence is slow, protect them with a defensive shield or play a centre back with some legs like Sanchez.

I love this!
just sort it manager!

 

[parklane1]

I admire the optimism and hope you are correct, history suggests otherwise, I can't recall a team recovering after that kind of beating at home.

Unfortunately the path is well travelled, we will likely have a reaction on week-end (player's pride), we will revert to fluctuating results until the next really bad result or two ends it.

At this point I'm amazed he's here now, end of season would be an amazing achievement from here.

You may well be right and he will be gone sooner rather then later, we all know that some clubs change managers at the first sign of trouble ( and we have history for doing that). I just think Levy has seen how Poch has transformed this team since coming here and may just see how the season pans out before rising the axe. However it may not come down to that if Poch decides to walk.

 

[glasgowspur]

Theres a couple of angles of attack on that point.

1) Yes, its clearly not optimum with the players at hand
2) What is the manager doing about it?

1) should resolve itself in time, 2) is the immediate issue for me. When there are problems in a side its the managers job to mitigate them.

I dont believe the narrative of "poor Poch HAS to play Winks as a DM..." holds any real weight. Especially when it seems Poch hasnt even tried to work on it.



I suspect you are right and Liverpool (away, 27th) will be brutal. Possibly the last straw?




I really dont think it is.

Think about the players available, you telling me this is as good as it gets?




Ive been sceptical on KWP all along, not a fan boy and certainly not in an "absence makes the heart grow fonder..." situation.

He is a RB though. A steady one. Not perfect, but IMO the best of a bad bunch kind of option.

BM specifically, you are right. Both FBs were hung out to try so it makes little difference for Tuesday.




When people are making reasoned points about how and why they think what they do, it is absolutely a strawman argument to wade in and accuse the masses of being fickle.

He was only forced to play Winks as he did (does?) because he insists on playing the diamond. That is a self inflicted constraint. Therefore, not a "woe is poor old Poch" situation. If he doesnt have the players to effectively play a diamond (he doesnt) then he should be finding a formation he does have the players to succeed with.

So who is available that is better than those players at their peak?
And if there isn't any isn't that a decline?

 

[parklane1]

When people are making reasoned points about how and why they think what they do, it is absolutely a strawman argument to wade in and accuse the masses of being fickle.

He was only forced to play Winks as he did (does?) because he insists on playing the diamond. That is a self inflicted constraint. Therefore, not a "woe is poor old Poch" situation. If he doesnt have the players to effectively play a diamond (he doesnt) then he should be finding a formation he does have the players to succeed with.

Well as i have already said i believe you are wrong on all points over this and we will never agree so its best to agree to disagree. I doubt either one of us wants to go around the houses until the cows come home.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So who is available that is better than those players at their peak?
And if there isn't any isn't that a decline?

That sidesteps the point.

Who in the current team is playing anything like as well as they can?

Our bench is stronger than I think Ive ever seen, and yet the 11 on the field are playing like strangers.

That doesnt scream a team in decline to me, it screams a team in need of management and leadership.

We havent been anywhere close to our potential.

You seem to think the players dont have it in them, my view is more that its coming from the management (or lack of) and they could well be doing far better than they are.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Well as i have already said i believe you are wrong on all points over this and we will never agree so its best to agree to disagree. I doubt either one of us wants to go around the houses until the cows come home.

The usual then, got it. Someone tries to engage your view and it all gets shut down.

 

[parklane1]

The usual then, got it. Someone tries to engage your view and it all gets shut down.

Rubbish, you are like a dog with a bone and no matter what anyone says in reply you come back to argue the point which in most cases is dogmatic.

Please your self mate Stop! Hammer time but on occasions you seem get upset when others do not agree.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Rubbish, you are like a dog with a bone and no matter what anyone says in reply you come back to argue the point which in most cases is dogmatic.

Please your self mate Stop! Hammer time but on occasions you seem get upset when others do not agree.

I am not upset.

I would much rather have a discussion, and maybe learn something, or change perspective - than a dismissive "Well I dont agree so ner"

Your point on Winks having to play DM is not logically sound. And if you follow that path down - it opens up questions around what is it Poch is actually doing? A rather interesting avenue, IMO.

And me being a fickle fan, Id quite like to see an opening where it seems Poch is still his old self - as opposed to the black hole I see right now...

 

[glasgowspur]

That sidesteps the point.

Who in the current team is playing anything like as well as they can?

Our bench is stronger than I think Ive ever seen, and yet the 11 on the field are playing like strangers.

That doesnt scream a team in decline to me, it screams a team in need of management and leadership.

We havent been anywhere close to our potential.

You seem to think the players dont have it in them, my view is more that its coming from the management (or lack of) and they could well be doing far better than they are.

The management haven't made Toby older and slower, they haven't made eriksen want to move, or aurier reckless, rose switch off.
There's points he could be helping them with and he is in my opinion making some totally baffling decisions, but this team needs taken apart and rebuilt.
I said it last season during the wolves defeat at the lane this should looked upon as the end of an era for this team and was laughed at. We have too many not good enough or not caring enough and we can't keep carrying them or not replacing them.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The management haven't made Toby older and slower, they haven't made eriksen want to move, or aurier reckless, rose switch off.
There's points he could be helping them with and he is in my opinion making some totally baffling decisions, but this team needs taken apart and rebuilt.
I said it last season during the wolves defeat at the lane this should looked upon as the end of an era for this team and was laughed at. We have too many not good enough or not caring enough and we can't keep carrying them or not replacing them.

Good point - Wolves are playing tonight, I fancy watching that.

Im all in on the Poch 2.0 plan. I dont think the whole team needs changing though. I think there needs to be some young blood brought in, older players moved out. Though I suspect my view on that is less drastic than yours.

My point is - good management mitigates those issues. Bad management exposes them.

A manager in good form would be doing much better with our squad today than Poch currently is. IMHO.

Perhaps that means packing the midfield, a low block, or something else. The point is its not happening (apparently, at least) and so performances are worse than they should be.

IMHO we should be comfortably 3rd, with Poch looking to Jan and the Summer to make the changes he needs. Nice timing after integrating NDombele and Lo Celso and Sessegnon...

 

[glasgowspur]

Good point - Wolves are playing tonight, I fancy watching that.

Im all in on the Poch 2.0 plan. I dont think the whole team needs changing though. I think there needs to be some young blood bought in, older players moved out. Though I suspect my view on that is less drastic than yours.

My point is - good management mitigates those issues. Bad management exposes them.

A manager in good form would be doing much better with our squad today than Poch currently is. IMHO.

Perhaps that means packing the midfield, a low block, or something else. The point is its not happening (apparently, at least) and so performances are worse than they should be.

IMHO we should be comfortably 3rd, with Poch looking to Jan and the Summer to make the changes he needs. Nice timing after integrating NDombele and Lo Celso and Sessegnon...

Imho the squad is in decline because of the ongoing RB situation, eriksen leaving but most importantly the injuries to wanyama and dier.
If we had one of those two fit and on form we could get by.
Eriksen is being replaced with ndom and GLC, and either dier and wanyama screening the back four or dropping into make s three for the FB to push on and we are golden.
It gives us 13/28 months to sort the issues.
We have really, really missed wanyama and that has only been compounded by dier and the moose being out.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

@parklane1 - If you want something to just grumble at have a look at this

https://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/news/jose-mourinho-tottenham-spurs-manager-17026255

I dare say I wont disagree with any view you have about it...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Imho the squad is in decline because of the ongoing RB situation, eriksen leaving but most importantly the injuries to wanyama and dier.
If we had one of those two fit and on form we could get by.
Eriksen is being replaced with ndom and GLC, and either dier and wanyama screening the back four or dropping into make s three for the FB to push on and we are golden.
It gives us 13/28 months to sort the issues.
We have really, really missed wanyama and that has only been compounded by dier and the moose being out.

Maybe its a terminology thing, but that really doesnt scream decline to me at all.

Eriksen going and replaced by two players? How is that decline?

Dier not available - but now seemingly back fit - decline?

Wanyama I'll give you, seems terminally broken, but then we have the like of Skipp coming through and potential to shift shape anyway.

Seems more like a transitional phase than decline to me.

Even the defence, Alderweireld isnt what he once was - but thats precisely why we have Sanchez and Foyth.

I like Davies at LB, have no issues with him replacing Rose, and by all accounts Sessegnon is there to come through.

RB is of course a mess. But to my eye thats actually just one key buy required.

 

[StephenH]

You are wicked! Re FM

Wolves good call like watching them

 

[glasgowspur]

Maybe its a terminology thing, but that really doesnt scream decline to me at all.

Eriksen going and replaced by two players? How is that decline?

Dier not available - but now seemingly back fit - decline?

Wanyama I'll give you, seems terminally broken, but then we have the like of Skipp coming through and potential to shift shape anyway.

Seems more like a transitional phase than decline to me.

Even the defence, Alderweireld isnt what he once was - but thats precisely why we have Sanchez and Foyth.

I like Davies at LB, have no issues with him replacing Rose, and by all accounts Sessegnon is there to come through.

RB is of course a mess. But to my eye thats actually just one key buy required.

In my eyes it a decline, and a predictable one, but definitely not an irreversible one.
A bit of luck with injuries, form and a signing and it was a transition, but for me that hasn't happened and this what we are left with.
Most of that was outside our control and that's why I'm happy to stick with poch.
My only problem with him is winks is too far back and not a DM and Harry keeps coming deep.
But as I said a proper DM and that vanishes and buys us time to manage the transition.

Just an edit to say that my original decline post did the squad from last season, so excluding ndom and GLC.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

In my eyes it a decline, and a predictable one, but definitely not an irreversible one.
A bit of luck with injuries, form and a signing and it was a transition, but for me that hasn't happened and this what we are left with.
Most of that was outside our control and that's why I'm happy to stick with poch.
My only problem with him is winks is too far back and not a DM and Harry keeps coming deep.
But as I said a proper DM and that vanishes and buys us time to manage the transition.

Just an edit to say that my original decline post did the squad from last season, so excluding ndom and GLC.

Last season was freakish by the nature of injury etc we had, Ive never seen anything like it and Im not sure its fair to call it a decline - morelike decimated.

Even looking at last season

........................lloris

trippier.....sanchez......vertonghen.....davies
.......................sissoko*
...........winks..................alli
.....moura.............................son
........................kane

lamela, eriksen, dier, wanyama, llorente, rose, alderweireld all not included.

*Sissoko fashioned into a Parker like DM, hunt down anything that comes our way and give it simple. Ive said all along its the best use for him, and unsurprisingly the best game he ever gave us (IMO) was against Chelsea the one time he had that remit.

Wheres the decline? Thats a good, well balanced team. Its not screaming out of half a dozen players or any of it.

This season we have that (less trippier) with the additions over the summer.

Its not one I want to labour too much, seems we really just see it differently. As I say, I suspect its terminology, "decline" seems like a really severe word as I read it, and no appropriate to what is essentially succession planning in our squad.

 

[glasgowspur]

Last season was freakish by the nature of injury etc we had, Ive never seen anything like it and Im not sure its fair to call it a decline - morelike decimated.

Even looking at last season

........................lloris

trippier.....sanchez......vertonghen.....davies
.......................sissoko*
...........winks..................alli
.....moura.............................son
........................kane

lamela, eriksen, dier, wanyama, llorente, rose, alderweireld all not included.

*Sissoko fashioned into a Parker like DM, hunt down anything that comes our way and give it simple. Ive said all along its the best use for him, and unsurprisingly the best game he ever gave us (IMO) was against Chelsea the one time he had that remit.

Wheres the decline? Thats a good, well balanced team. Its not screaming out of half a dozen players or any of it.

This season we have that (less trippier) with the additions over the summer.

Its not one I want to labour too much, seems we really just see it differently. As I say, I suspect its terminology, "decline" seems like a really severe word as I read it, and no appropriate to what is essentially succession planning in our squad.

I think you're right it's a terminology thing.
Decline in itself isn't a strong word, but it's usually used with words like terminal, fall, unarrested which are quite scary.
It's unfortunate for us that the problems have arisen in not just key areas and key players but multiple key players in those key areas.
Losing wanyama, dier and the moose would hurt any team and those three covered a lot of cracks.

 

[Bishop]

Theres a couple of angles of attack on that point.

1) Yes, its clearly not optimum with the players at hand
2) What is the manager doing about it?

1) should resolve itself in time, 2) is the immediate issue for me. When there are problems in a side its the managers job to mitigate them.

I dont believe the narrative of "poor Poch HAS to play Winks as a DM..." holds any real weight. Especially when it seems Poch hasnt even tried to work on it.


When people are making reasoned points about how and why they think what they do, it is absolutely a strawman argument to wade in and accuse the masses of being fickle.

He was only forced to play Winks as he did (does?) because he insists on playing the diamond. That is a self inflicted constraint. Therefore, not a "woe is poor old Poch" situation. If he doesnt have the players to effectively play a diamond (he doesnt) then he should be finding a formation he does have the players to succeed with.

In all honesty I do blame Poch for the state of our centre midfield anyway. He's never seemed that interested in getting a possession and passing game going from deep or at least he's never brought in any players with that as their forte. It has been my main criticism of him over the years and where I feel we missed out on winning the PL. So yes he hasn't been forced to play Winks there, there were signs last season that the midfield was in a dreadful state and admittedly we have finally addressed it with the signing of Ndombele and hopefully Lo Celso but in reality it was too little too late.

We brought in two players who were are relying on to change things up and on the hope that they wouldnt suffer any injuries. We should have brought in someone for the midfield 3 seasons ago but it didn't happen and by the time we are addressing it there is too much to fix all at once.

I agree you play the system that fits your players not the system you want to play. The diamond doesn't suit and I don't really see its appeal. A 4231 or genuine 433 suit the personbep we have that much more.




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[Nigeyman]

Who was it said fans are fickle mate you have been around long enough to know that. This is the first season that we seem to have gone a little backwards under Poch ( or at least that seems to be the opinion of a lot of fans), i think he has done enough over the previous season to be given some slack but alas it seems to me that whoever said fans were fickle was bang on the money.

Poch is just as fickle as fans.