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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

billyiddo said:
On paper the squad is quite strong and has been for 2-3 seasons now, comparable at least to anyone bar City with regards to depth - so again not an excuse for me.
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I can’t say I agree mate, there are some areas which are very strong but some glaring weaknesses too. Right back and a good defensive midfielder are specific areas of weakness in the squad and we have missed cover for Eriksen for a number of seasons. Not too mention we seemed to have permacrocks which have not helped.
 
Robspur12 said:
I can’t say I agree mate, there are some areas which are very strong but some glaring weaknesses too. Right back and a good defensive midfielder is an area of weakness and we have missed cover for Eriksen for a number of seasons. Not too mention we seemed to have permacrocks which have not helped.
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Im sure if you spoke with our top 6 rivals all bar City would have similar issues with their squads regarding depth - we know more of ours as we follow our squad so closely in comparison
 
billyiddo said:
On paper the squad is quite strong and has been for 2-3 seasons now, comparable at least to anyone bar City with regards to depth - so again not an excuse for me.
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Look at Liverpool, they're not any better than us except in one area, belief in themselves and each other.
We seriously lack that.
Look at yesterday after Hugo went down, did anyone gather them together and give pep talk? Didn't look like it. They all seemed to stand around staring into space.
 
billyiddo said:
Im sure if you spoke with our top 6 rivals all bar City would have similar issues with their squads regarding depth - we know more of ours as we follow our squad so closely in comparison
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Take Liverpool mate, they backed Klopp big time in strengthening the weaknesses in their side, Keita and Fabinho in centre midfield, Allinson and Van Dyke at the back. City, Jesus and Sane with Laporte, and Rodri. Man Utd initially backed their managers then stopped and look where they are now. The less square pegs in round holes the better when you are talking about building trophy winning teams. Those little differences count.
 
Bullet said:
A decade ago, we either had players that weren't good enough and got rid of them, or players that were coveted and were poached.

We dreamed of a time when we could keep hold of our top talent.

We all said "wow, if we can get X and Y and Z signed up, that is us sorted for the next 5 years, it will be amazing to have that consistency".

Now things are going wrong so this new problem arises... lack of change. Whereas before it was too much change.

People (not you Trev) just find some sort of narrative to fit any issue. There is always an angle to spin, something to say e.g. Poch is too distant (like Fergie or Ancelotti) or too close (too friendly, too involved) or both at the same time... always some spin.
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I agree - when things are going wrong, it’s possible to put the blame on virtually anything, because there’s not enough info or evidence to prove anything one way or another. (Though at the very least that table provides strong evidence for how unusual our situation is, whether or not that’s contributed to our poor performances).

That’s why I’m going to go and read a book rather than stay on this forum for the rest of the evening - goodnight :D.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I honestly don't get where he's coming from either. But on the Sissoko stuff, I think it's a massive own goal. It's a soft chance to talk up a player and he's distanced himself from it and given a very strange answer. I said this earlier in the week but throw in the inference in his book that Sissoko was Levy's signing and if I'm Sissoko, I'm losing respect for the guy. Is it a coincidence that it was Sissoko criticising his tactics during the week?

There's a lot of people, me included, who are looking back at that bloody book. The stuff he wrote about Dier was wrong. I can't remember Dier playing many good games for us since. Of course there have been extenuating circumstances with his injuries but is that a coincidence?

He definitely should have kept the "different agendas" comments in house no matter how true they are. It feeds the media narrative and heightens the pressure.

I think Pochs judgement has been very very poor in this respect and he's not been the type of manager you could follow over the last while in my opinion.
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I really don’t mind the Sissoko thing - it is Poch doing what he has done all through his time here - he never talks about individuals to the press if he can help it. He always refers back to the collective. I also think what he says to the press is likely totally different to what he says in private to players, and I don’t think Sissoko has any cause to feel disrespected. He is the one who Poch trusted when barely anyone else did. He is the one that has actually just gotten the new contract, which wouldn’t have been offered without Poch approval.

Dier also to me has just been extremely unlucky with injury and illness but if you look at when the third goal went in, it’s him with his arm round Toby, trying to motivate the team again. I think he’s in, he’s just been waiting to get fit again.

The different agendas and the repeated allusion to potentially leaving though are things I just don’t have an answer for. It wouldn’t make any sense to demand loyalty and say you’re in it for the long term but then say that. I can only conclude that maybe he is looking out for his family and the family of his staff, in that it is all well and good to be loyal, but if there is no threat you could leave, maybe you don’t get the terms that would usually be on offer in a competitive market place. Maybe he has to feel like he should continue to apply pressure to look out for them since he represents them too. I don’t know.
 
galeforce said:
True, but in most fields you are dealing with colleagues also qualified in that industry. If any of our players have got their coaching badges maybe they are worth listening to.
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These quotes don’t make any sense to me. You’ve got players very clearly wanting to leave and being offered routes out of the club that are now supposedly moaning about how it’s the same old sessions and messages, but you’ve also got players supposedly moaning about the diamond, you’ve got players moaning about it being a regime and not being trusted but you’ve got those same players that tried to leave still getting game time.

It all just reeks of agents trying to protect their players and dissassociate their players from the mess that has unfolded. Because none of it makes sense. I’m certain that the player that said the ‘same old messages’ comment would be one we were happy to let go. This player has looked elsewhere, and has decided that there is no better place than Spurs that will make him an offer...so what the fudge does he expect? For an entire managerial methodology to be altered for a group that largely won’t be here in a few months? When he is still getting game time? You had a route out, you didn’t take it, and now you’re here, fudging knuckle down and do your job, rather than mouthing off.

I really can’t believe players are this thick, which is why I am leaning towards agents sewing doubt to protect their clients. But then I think to Walkers Pikachu meme face reaction to being dropped for the biggest games of the run in after telling Poch he wanted to leave in the middle of a title race and yeah...maybe the players are that thick. Maybe they just want everything they can get and care not one bit about the bigger picture.
 
Robspur12 said:
Take Liverpool mate, they backed Klopp big time in strengthening the weaknesses in their side, Keita and Fabinho in centre midfield, Allinson and Van Dyke at the back. City, Jesus and Sane with Laporte, and Rodri. Man Utd initially backed their managers then stopped and look where they are now. The less square pegs in round holes the better when you are talking about building trophy winning teams. Those little differences count.
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I think we're actually arriving at a point where we can go out and get our first choice targets like Liverpool did two years ago when they backed Klopp - maybe a little bit short of that as we still do have a stadium to pay for but summer just gone was quite heartening to see 2 obvious first choice targets come in, if we're able to do that each summer whilst also adding in prospects like Sess then we're in a good place going forwards.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
??? As if your theory or argument is any more true then?

Do I have to say ‘I know Poch, I understand sports science, I understand how much he makes his decisions around it’ for it then to have more credibility? Because I don’t think there is anything outrageous in the idea that he rates Dele (for example) as one of his key players for the future, and similarly isn’t playing him so that he can ease him back in gently. It then becomes, if you don’t play Dele, who are the options?

The reasoning to get to this point isn’t too difficult. If we bomb Eriksen out, even though we are also carefully managing Lamela, we are seriously weakening ourselves when we have a CL campaign and have loaned a lot of players out.

We need him, even if it isn’t the old Eriksen, or his head is somewhat elsewhere. Because it is about protecting and helping the players that will be here. We could potentially suffer longer term by playing Dele or Lamela more now, and giving them even longer injuries in the future, by which time Eriksen has gone. But bombing him doesn’t help. It assumes he is actively causing an issue, which is no more proven than anything I have said.

You then have to play this back around the squad with the other players. How do you motivate them if you need them? Do you bomb them out? Do you treat them as second class? Do you have them feel like they no longer belong? It won’t be much help. It has already started with Eriksen - he has been left on the bench in big games and this will likely increase as the season gets further along. But I think Poch is making decisions based on long term health of the players rather than short term results, and it means we may suffer with the short term results but improve as the season goes on. That he can see the bigger picture in this regard is one of the many reasons we’d be foolish to let him go.
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I would agree with this if those players were still playing well but Eriksen, Alserweireld etc have been absolutely shocking all season. Playing like an 18 year old in the championship.

There is some value in not ostrasticing them entirely in that they are still here till January minimum and with Eriksen maybe if GLC was fit he'd be playing but for instance why not play Sanchez who is committed and wants to be here. Is he going to play any worse than Toby? If he has players who will be in 2.0 then it makes sense to be giving them more game time now - I mean we couldn't play any worse with them in the team.
 
P.D. said:
I would agree with this if those players were still playing well but Eriksen, Alserweireld etc have been absolutely shocking all season. Playing like an 18 year old in the championship.

There is some value in not ostrasticing them entirely in that they are still here till January minimum and with Eriksen maybe if GLC was fit he'd be playing but for instance why not play Sanchez who is committed and wants to be here. Is he going to play any worse than Toby? If he has players who will be in 2.0 then it makes sense to be giving them more game time now - I mean we couldn't play any worse with them in the team.
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I’m sure this will be something we see more of as the season progresses. I don’t expect to see Toby and Eriksen starting big games while they can talk to other clubs. But until then, I think we are getting our pound of flesh from them given we have a lot of games with a CL campaign.
 
billyiddo said:
I think we're actually arriving at a point where we can go out and get our first choice targets like Liverpool did two years ago when they backed Klopp - maybe a little bit short of that as we still do have a stadium to pay for but summer just gone was quite heartening to see 2 obvious first choice targets come in, if we're able to do that each summer whilst also adding in prospects like Sess then we're in a good place going forwards.
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Yep in 3 years time you would hope we would have 6 new top quality players. Of course they won't all work out but 3 or 4 hopefully will.
 
I would also say a couple of things:

Point was made earlier that Fergie faced a time like this twice at United. They stuck with him both times and were rewarded. People may say that is was such a unique situation but if anyone has built their club on those similar principles in the last few years it is us. I don’t think this should be an obvious time where player power wins. We got where we are by doing things differently, and we should continue to do it as long as Poch wants it.

Secondly, sometimes form is just form and takes on a life of its own. I think Liverpool are an excellent side that have done extremely well, but do I think they are so much better than the rest of the league from a squad quality perspective that they should be winning 17 games in a row? No. But they’ve got into some exceptional form and that perpetuates itself. It drove Leicester on when they won the league. Chelsea got 14 wins in a row when they did it with Conte. Sometimes form makes good players look unbeatable, and can make good players look much worse on the other end. I think we just need to play our way out of bad form, and not make long term decisions on the idea that this means anything about Poch’s managerial ability or our direction as a club.
 
glasgowspur said:
I do understand that.
But this should have been our year, new stadium so no distractions there, squad investment, the squad are all at peak age, limited summer internationals, so close in the CL should have galvanized us.
You even hope that Toby, eriksen and rose would think that they've had some good times here and it would be great to leave with a trophy.
Instead we are in some kind of purgatory where a good few have said enough is enough.
So there's the bitter taste of nothing for a lot of effort, when a little more effort might have bought glory.

And tbh if a chump like me can see that and the players can't then I would question if they are worth having.
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That's fair, but how many people think that way?

As an alternative, your points could equally be seen as -

1) new stadium - more adaptation required, another settling in period after Wembley
2) Squad investment - same old faces still here, not enough new ones brought in, some of the ones here want to leave anyway
3) Squad are at peak age - which is why motivational tactics that work for young kids don't work for them, and they're getting injuries from a gruelling training regime they're too old for
4) Limited summer internationals - more rustiness to shake off
5) So close in the CL - yes, and we couldn't get over the line. Will we ever get there again? We're not Liverpool, we don't have their self-belief or their managerial and tactical nous and know-how. We can't beat the odds like they did.
6) Would be nice to leave with a trophy - yes, but it's ephemeral, because where they're going, they will win trophies anyway, be it Ajax or Madrid.

People tend to think negatively - it's a scientific fact that our brains remember negative experiences instantly, but positive experiences need to be repeated 6 or 7 times before they sink in. Likewise for positive thinking.
I think the players have tried gamely, but they're now in a rut in terms of negative thinking. And Poch needs to win something to truly be able to change that, or it will just keep getting bigger every season.

Imagine if he goes ten seasons without winning a single damn thing - not a community shield, not an Intertoto Cup, zero, nilch, absolutely nada. It's certainly possible - we're in Year Six with one trophy left in the season (FA Cup) to aim for. In fact, if you look at his whole career (Espanyol and Southampton included), we're probably going to cross the ten-year mark this year.

Would even the U18s believe him if he came out and told them to run themselves into the ground to win things?

Poch needs to win something. It's the only way out of this rut, and the only way he will get the players to believe that pushing themselves to the edge is worth it.
 
billyiddo said:
^I think the players would see getting to the CL final as a sign that they were on the right path with Pochs methods if that is what was the issue
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But they didn't win.

And it adds up - they didn't win the Carling Cup final in 2015, they didn't win the league in 15-16, they didn't win the league in 16-17 (And lost in the FA Cup semi as well), they lost in the FA Cup semi in 2017-2018, and they lost in the CL final in 2019.

At every final hurdle, we've fallen short. Ultimately, it makes no difference that we reached it in the first place - those memories will live on forever for us as fans, but for the players, it's a failure to win that means that 5-6 years of their careers have been spent trophyless, despite putting in gargantuan efforts and running more than anyone else during that time.

In response to that, any admonition from Poch that this could have been their year had they tried more would just come across as a bit pathetic. Win something, so you have the experience of winning and can tell the players what that takes.
 
I do wonder if the egg Poch laid in the CL final has damaged the confidence in him from the squad beyond repair.

We were not at all prepared for that game, or any since, so it seems.
 
glasgowspur said:
Look at Liverpool, they're not any better than us except in one area, belief in themselves and each other.
We seriously lack that.
Look at yesterday after Hugo went down, did anyone gather them together and give pep talk? Didn't look like it. They all seemed to stand around staring into space.
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you’re right about the belief part but they have a better keeper by some distance who doesn’t make serial blunders at critical moments and their defence is easily better than ours. Vertonghen is the only defender who would even be in with a sniff of their starting lineup.

individually you could argue our front line is comparable with theirs and it is but I do believe their front three work better as a unit than ours, they’re on the same wavelength at most times.

their midfield is distinctly average for a top team.

Their manager is better than ours also which counts for a lot.

What annoys me is they are so far ahead of us in terms of picking up points, mentality but the squad isn’t much better than ours. The fact that we have allowed the gap to become so big is what frustrates me.
 
@DubaiSpur I'd say the steps taken from carling cup to league runners up to CL finalists would do the opposite personally (did Liverpool players lose faith when they lost the EL final the CL final and were league runners up?) I know it fits your we have to win any trophy narrative but i find it hard to believe that a league cup win would have changed the malaise that has crept in, it's clearly just gone a bit stale with a squad where there bulk has been together for an extraordinarily long time, minor trophies wouldn't have changed that.
 
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