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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

I think the table someone on here posted showing how many players each top club has from 3,4,5 etc years ago shows quite well where some of the issues lay and why it's the players some want to see replaced ahead of the manager
 
Raziel said:
Thing is, I don't think Poch has "lost the dressing room" or anything like that, I just think the players have lost a little bit of motivation and belief.

It's a cliché, but managers have a lifecycle (3-5 years in current game seems about it), and Poch has all the signs of a manager at the end, the surliness, the weird selections/tactics, the stubbornness, the inability to get best of players.

Honestly I think for Poch the choice is simple, walk now and be remembered well, reputation intact and likely well placed for a big job. Stick around and if the results deteriorate further risk reputation and future jobs.
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Ferguson oversaw 3-4 of those 5 year cycles. You just have to accept a rebuilding period.
 
billyiddo said:
I think the table someone on here posted showing how many players each top club has from 3,4,5 etc years ago shows quite well where some of the issues lay and why it's the players some want to see replaced ahead of the manager
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But how long would it take to overhaul the squad, 4 windows maybe even 6, what are the mid term implications of carrying on with a impotent/part impotent squad, obviously it’s gamble but a new manager and it has to be the right man could breath new life into this squad for 18-24 months and give some breathing room for the rebuilt.

What has basically broke me with Poch is his insistence over the last year of stubbornly using tactics that everyone can see don’t work, whatever issues are going on with the squad be it motivation, fatigue, injuries contract issues, personal etc etc it doesn’t give him a excuse to send the team out with one arm tied behind their backs for the majority of games, if he continually shows signs like Saturday of setting the team up correctly but the players throw strops then I am more than happy to get back behind him fully, but I just fear that boat has sailed.
 
SylDave said:
But how long would it take to overhaul the squad, 4 windows maybe even 6, what are the mid term implications of carrying on with a impotent/part impotent squad, obviously it’s gamble but a new manager and it has to be the right man could breath new life into this squad for 18-24 months and give some breathing room for the rebuilt.

What has basically broke me with Poch is his insistence over the last year of stubbornly using tactics that everyone can see don’t work, whatever issues are going on with the squad be it motivation, fatigue, injuries contract issues, personal etc etc it doesn’t give him a excuse to send the team out with one arm tied behind their backs for the majority of games, if he continually shows signs like Saturday of setting the team up correctly but the players throw strops then I am more than happy to get back behind him fully, but I just fear that boat has sailed.
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This, and people must be absolutely mad if they think losing Kane, Son, Dele would be worth keeping Poch ...
 
Raziel said:
This, and people must be absolutely mad if they think losing Kane, Son, Dele would be worth keeping Poch ...
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And what only came to me after I posted that too was the implications around squad harmony, if the squad is disruptive, sign two or three new players and ship a couple out per window the disruption is still there, the new players will be coming into that atmosphere, you can be the most positive person in the world but go into work everyday and be surrounded by negativity it will eventually drag you down to that level, and this could end up being a never ending cycle, in two years time Ndombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon are passing it down from two years of it and on and on it goes.
 
I think Poch has a brief reprieve. If he was going to go, he would have by now.

The players are not back until Wednesday next week (I would imagine), which means he'll have three days with them to start getting things back to where they should be.

Perhaps going away with their national sides, experiencing a different group dynamic, manager, training etc will have helped. A change being as good as a rest...

Then we have Watford (19thOct), who are currently terrible, Red Star Belgrade(22nd) and then Liverpool away (27th).

I think, as it stands, Liverpool is the key game.

We should beat Watford and RSB, no guarantees of course, but we should. We could take those games and show how we are working on the training ground to bring the team together in a successful way. And then Liverpool will be the test of that.

And I dont even think the Liverpool result is the key thing, its the performance, how well we match up. But I do think - if we pull another Brighton type performance - that Liverpool will absolutely smash us, and Im not sure Poch survives that.

We then have a week off, Sunday to Sunday, and the fixtures following are Everton (A), RSB (A), Sheff Utd (H), West Ham (A), Olympiakos (H), Bournemouth (H) taking us to the end of November.

December is a tricky one, Man U (A), Burnley (H), Bayern (A), Wolves (A), Chelsea (H), Brighton (H - Boxing Day), Norwich (A).

It looks two ways to me, and it all hinges on Liverpool.

1) Poch gets to work, the squad responds, we do well against Watford and RSB, and put in a good showing against Liverpool. The run following that is ideal for building momentum on that good work the three games prior. It could be the making of our season and the resurrection of Poch and the team.

2) Poch gets to work, the squad doesnt respond. We limp past Watford and RSB (or worse) and Liverpool utterly outclass us. Poch goes. New manager has a pretty decent run to come into the club and try to build the team back up with...
 
Raziel said:
This, and people must be absolutely mad if they think losing Kane, Son, Dele would be worth keeping Poch ...
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I was thinking about this - at what point is it the manager who is the bad apple and not the players?

I’m not seeing much from anyone from the playing staff atm to suggest many want to turn it around.

Are we suggesting all the players need binning till the manager gets players that are willing to work to his current maximum effort zero reward method.

He needs to adapt as a manager or potentially end up like Bielsa in the championship.
 
Brief reprieve if the players don’t say anything whilst away

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I think Poch has a brief reprieve. If he was going to go, he would have by now.

The players are not back until Wednesday next week (I would imagine), which means he'll have three days with them to start getting things back to where they should be.

Perhaps going away with their national sides, experiencing a different group dynamic, manager, training etc will have helped. A change being as good as a rest...

Then we have Watford (19thOct), who are currently terrible, Red Star Belgrade(22nd) and then Liverpool away (27th).

I think, as it stands, Liverpool is the key game.

We should beat Watford and RSB, no guarantees of course, but we should. We could take those games and show how we are working on the training ground to bring the team together in a successful way. And then Liverpool will be the test of that.

And I dont even think the Liverpool result is the key thing, its the performance, how well we match up. But I do think - if we pull another Brighton type performance - that Liverpool will absolutely smash us, and Im not sure Poch survives that.

We then have a week off, Sunday to Sunday, and the fixtures following are Everton (A), RSB (A), Sheff Utd (H), West Ham (A), Olympiakos (H), Bournemouth (H) taking us to the end of November.

December is a tricky one, Man U (A), Burnley (H), Bayern (A), Wolves (A), Chelsea (H), Brighton (H - Boxing Day), Norwich (A).

It looks two ways to me, and it all hinges on Liverpool.

1) Poch gets to work, the squad responds, we do well against Watford and RSB, and put in a good showing against Liverpool. The run following that is ideal for building momentum on that good work the three games prior. It could be the making of our season and the resurrection of Poch and the team.

2) Poch gets to work, the squad doesnt respond. We limp past Watford and RSB (or worse) and Liverpool utterly outclass us. Poch goes. New manager has a pretty decent run to come into the club and try to build the team back up with...
Click to expand...
 
Raziel said:
This, and people must be absolutely mad if they think losing Kane, Son, Dele would be worth keeping Poch ...
Click to expand...

And what if they are the bad apples and we have endless churn of managers, who will all want new players, then paid off when that doesn't work.
It's not that easy, DL needs to get to the bottom of it and get rid of any and all bad apples.
It's not a time for picking sides, it's a time to sort it out, and sort it out properly.
 
Legohamster said:
I was thinking about this - at what point is it the manager who is the bad apple and not the players?

I’m not seeing much from anyone from the playing staff atm to suggest many want to turn it around.

Are we suggesting all the players need binning till the manager gets players that are willing to work to his current maximum effort zero reward method.

He needs to adapt as a manager or potentially end up like Bielsa in the championship.
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The answer to that is what no one outside of the club knows, are the players not playing for Tottenham Hotspur or are they not playing for Mauricio Pochettino, either way to down tools is pathetic.
 
glasgowspur said:
And what if they are the bad apples and we have endless churn of managers, who will all want new players, then paid off when that doesn't work.
It's not that easy, DL needs to get to the bottom of it and get rid of any and all bad apples.
It's not a time for picking sides, it's a time to sort it out, and sort it out properly.
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I'm not sure there's anyone you would class as bad apples in the squad. Eriksen is a bit autistic and Rose a bit feisty. But I don't think either actively try to be disruptive.
 
SylDave said:
But how long would it take to overhaul the squad, 4 windows maybe even 6, what are the mid term implications of carrying on with a impotent/part impotent squad, obviously it’s gamble but a new manager and it has to be the right man could breath new life into this squad for 18-24 months and give some breathing room for the rebuilt.

What has basically broke me with Poch is his insistence over the last year of stubbornly using tactics that everyone can see don’t work, whatever issues are going on with the squad be it motivation, fatigue, injuries contract issues, personal etc etc it doesn’t give him a excuse to send the team out with one arm tied behind their backs for the majority of games, if he continually shows signs like Saturday of setting the team up correctly but the players throw strops then I am more than happy to get back behind him fully, but I just fear that boat has sailed.
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Most likely 2 summers I'd say though a good amount could be done in January and the summer provided we identify targets and move quickly and don't tinkle around but given how Levy operates I don't think that will happen. It has made me jealous seeing clubs like Liverpool regularly identify then seal a transfer early in the window regularly - we did this with N'Dombele but why not Sessegon and GLC who it was clear we were tarting around with since June.

I think at least one of Toby and Eriksen will leave in January and maybe one of the fringe players like Wanyana as well which suddenly makes the summer a bit easier (and possibly the 2nd half of the season).
 
SylDave said:
But how long would it take to overhaul the squad, 4 windows maybe even 6, what are the mid term implications of carrying on with a impotent/part impotent squad, obviously it’s gamble but a new manager and it has to be the right man could breath new life into this squad for 18-24 months and give some breathing room for the rebuilt.
Click to expand...

Really depends how much of a rebuild you think we need.

All players being fit, we could be fielding this side now:

..................lloris
kwp......sanchez....davies...sessegnon
..........ndombele...winks
.....................alli
....moura....................son
...................kane


lo celso, sissoko, skipp, lamela, dier, foyth, parrot all on the sidelines.

Not including vertonghen, rose, aurier, eriksen and alderweireld who are on the "outs".

Personally I would include Vertonghen in the team, but thats because I really think he should stick around.

If not, if he goes too - the immediate concerns are clearly RB and LCB IMO.

Thats no more than a decent January window.

Then of course its all about bringing in quality as and when you can and looking at succession of senior players.

I think this whole notion of "major rebuild" is somewhat over stated.
 
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