Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Robspur12]

Fair, but rotation is a luxury, not when you have now lost 20 out of your last 44 games ...
And our away form is the worst run since George Graham was manager … ffs!

Every argument for Poch goes out the window when you realize

- At HT, one of Dele or Eriksen needed to get off, even an argument to put Davies on as well instead of Rose
- The players were putting in such a shift, the full 3 subs needed to be on the pitch by 65-70 minutes max
- There is no way Lucas didn't have legs for this game.

This is stuff everyone saw from 20 minutes in .. a supposedly top level manager just let the game drift away from us and did nothing ...

I don't understand why he didn't switch it around earlier.

 

[Bullet]

Correct - subs had to come on earlier, to fix the big problems we had.

Poch is too stubborn.

In the press conference after the game, when the journo said that Ndombele changed things and was excellent, Poch really bristled and took it as a criticism that he should have made the sub earlier... he knows he is in the wrong and can't hide his emotion.

 

[Baleforce]

It's not poor management. It's what he is paid to do. Had he lost Tuesday's game it would have been terrible for our confidence. No one expected a result in today's game.

a red flag if ever there was one

 

[Raziel]

Correct - subs had to come on earlier, to fix the big problems we had.

Poch is too stubborn.

In the press conference after the game, when the journo said that Ndombele changed things and was excellent, Poch really bristled and took it as a criticism that he should have made the sub earlier... he knows he is in the wrong and can't hide his emotion.

What does that say about a manager with his tenure?

Do we really think he's going to wake up sometime this week and go "ohh .. maybe I should stop rotating in players who are badly out of form, and maybe I should actually uses my squad and subs"?

 

[Modric THFC]

It’s not really a perfect metaphor in this regard. A football club is slightly different in that Levy could never wish to have Poch’s expertise and vice versa. Poch, by being exceptional, put us way ahead of schedule.

It’s more like having a Founder who is technical, and that Founder hiring a COO who is more commercial. The obvious example is Zuckerberg and Sandberg. Both are exceptional in their own right, but they compliment each other perfectly and Facebook doesn’t scale to what it is without either one of them. Things are now hitting Facebook though - PR disasters, lack of trust, fake news, election interference, and it’s going to effect the business. Are they rushing to sack Sandberg? They aren’t.

Are you Matthew Syed in disguise?

It felt like a move to future Spurs tonight (although note - when Poch has an opportunity to say exactly that in the post match after being teed up, he didn’t say it. He continues to defend the group as a group. He’s still being the leader, protecting all the egos until the point that through his actions he removes them.)

But just really nice to see. Every player on the pitch has a reason to be there. Aurier wanted to leave, but it’s not like he’s ever had real success here, and it’s not like he’d go to anywhere near a better club than us, so there’s still a lot in it for him to try to succeed here. Jan has never felt like Toby, it’s always felt more likely he could get an extention. Great seeing Davies and Sanchez back instead of Rose and Toby. And the rest of the team, great to see them performing well. All motivated, all want to be here. Eriksen on the bench and Lamela showing we don’t need him on to play some nice football.

Yes it was only Red Star, but we’ve quite easily turned in terrible performances against worse teams, so this is a positive. It doesn’t feel like a group that has given up, but it does feel like a group that is more fully committed to being here long term. Even the players he wanted to make sure had minutes are ones I expect he counts on their loyalty for the long term. It felt like something of a shift tonight; and it will be interesting to see if and how he includes Toby, Rose and Eriksen going forward.

How this narrative work out then?
What's the new one to excuse Poch of blame or responibility?

 

[Raziel]

a red flag if ever there was one

Exactly ..

And basically after the Bayern humiliation we had 3 games, a banker at home (draw), CL home (win against one of the worst sides we have seen in a while) and a loss with a whimper while playing like a fudging relegation team trying to defend deep.

 

[Gazza]

Witch hunt ... the intelligence or lack of is sad.

I like logical rational thoughts but some really are exposing themselves for throwing their toys out ... almost wanting Poch to fail to say "See i ntold you ..."

 

[fernadez]

It's not poor management. It's what he is paid to do. Had he lost Tuesday's game it would have been terrible for our confidence. No one expected a result in today's game.

What sort of talk is this?

We in the business of writing off games now cause we're scared we might lose.

 

[Robspur12]

What sort of talk is this?

We in the business of writing off games now cause we're scared we might lose.

No we are in the business of prioritising games while we are trying to regain some form and have squad issues

 

[Raziel]

Witch hunt ... the intelligence or lack of is sad.

I like logical rational thoughts but some really are exposing themselves for throwing their toys out ... almost wanting Poch to fail to say "See i ntold you ..."

Throw me a bone ...

- Explain the selection (Toby, Rose, Dele, Eriksen)
- Explain the lack of change at HT
- The first sub at 73+ minutes (and the obvious impact it had)
- When under the kosh for so fudging long, why would you save your last two subs until 83+ minutes?
- Why leave Eriksen and Dele on for so long?

Because right now the people who think Poch is doing a good job (40% loss ratio in PL this season, worse away game form/run since George Graham was manager) seem to have a fudging religious answer

- he moves in mysterious ways?
- he's thinking more long term than we can possibly understand?

I said it in the match thread, if he played the same team as Tuesday (barring injury) and we got smashed, I would give him credit.

Instead he went back to exactly the same brick and same group of players that have failed for 10+ months, everyone knew that lineup wasn't going to win this game, and fudging Gazza is the only reason it wasn't a smash job. He can't be immune from criticism if he does the same brick over and over again

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No one expected a result in today's game.

Throwaway statement, but have a think about what you just wrote.

 

[Gazza]

Throw me a bone ...

- Explain the selection (Toby, Rose, Dele, Eriksen)
- Explain the lack of change at HT
- The first sub at 73+ minutes (and the obvious impact it had)
- When under the kosh for so fudging long, why would you save your last two subs until 83+ minutes?
- Why leave Eriksen and Dele on for so long?

Because right now the people who think Poch is doing a good job (40% loss ratio in PL this season, worse away game form/run since George Graham was manager) seem to have a fudging religious answer

- he moves in mysterious ways?
- he's thinking more long term than we can possibly understand?

I said it in the match thread, if he played the same team as Tuesday (barring injury) and we got smashed, I would give him credit.

Instead he went back to exactly the same brick and same group of players that have failed for 10+ months, everyone knew that lineup wasn't going to win this game, and fudging Gazza is the only reason it wasn't a smash job. He can't be immune from criticism if he does the same brick over and over again

That's more like it. Logical and backed with facts vs emotional rants

 

[Robspur12]

Throwaway statement, but have a think about what you just wrote.

I have thanks. That is where we are with our current form and problems with the squad. I am confident though we will turn it around.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I have thanks. That is where we are with our current form and problems with the squad. I am confident though we will turn it around.

Why?

That is where we are. Why are we there? And why will the same people change what they have become?

The team is fundamentally worse than it was season before last.

So much so we go from beating pool 4-2 to not expecting a result, and so apparently playing our A team against RSB to try and salvage our CL campaign - so binning this game off with the B team.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Why?

That is where we are. Why are we there? And why will the same people change what they have become?

The team is fundamentally worse than it was season before last.

So much so we go from beating pool 4-2 to not expecting a result, and so apparently playing our A team against RSB to try and salvage our CL campaign - so binning this game off with the B team.

We didn't beat them 4-2 away did we?

 

[Raziel]

Why?

That is where we are. Why are we there? And why will the same people change what they have become?

The team is fundamentally worse than it was season before last.

So much so we go from beating pool 4-2 to not expecting a result, and so apparently playing our A team against RSB to try and salvage our CL campaign - so binning this game off with the B team.

It's sooooo much worse

- We have lost 40% of our games this season in PL with a 30% win ratio
- Without a win in our last 11 Premier League away games (D2 L9), and last endured a longer run between May 2000-January 2001 under George Graham (14 games).
- Goals per game this season - 1.6, last 1.76, 17/18 season 1.95, 16/17 season 2.26 (so despite adding Lucas and the improvement in Son, we are into a third season of decline)

Every fudging statistic is a disaster, we are literally stumbling from bad to worse .. and people are like "lets give the guy a chance" ..

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Are you Matthew Syed in disguise?



How this narrative work out then?
What's the new one to excuse Poch of blame or responibility?

Struggling to see what out of what I’ve said is particularly wrong?

I don’t think any excuse is needed today. We lost 2-1 at the home of one of the favourites to win the League. We competed well. We missed an open goal chance to go 2-0 up. What exactly do we need to excuse?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I didn't understand why Eriksen had come back in today but Lamela being injured (again) does explain it somewhat I guess. Although surely that would've been a good opportunity for Poch to bring in Lo Celso? Also have no idea why he brought Winks back in.... Why not just keep NDombele in the team instead where he had partnered Sissoko well on Tuesday (and then partnered him well again when he came on today).

 

[Robspur12]

Explain the selection (Toby, Rose, Dele, Eriksen)

Toby and Rose were fine today. The problems imo, were with Eriksen and Winks and Dele played out of position.

Explain the lack of change at HT

I can't. Only Poch knows

Because right now the people who think Poch is doing a good job (40% loss ratio in PL this season, worse away game form/run since George Graham was manager) seem to have a fudging religious answer

I don't know if Poch is doing a good job or not because I am not fully aware of what is going on behind the scenes. Are you? But a lot of players have been injured and are coming back, a former star player is playing like a cnut and at least 4 players wanted out in the summer. Someone who does know is Daniel Levy, who has not pushed the button yet as he has done on several managers in the past. That suggests to me there is more to this than just what is happening on the pitch.

Poch has credit in the bank because unlike George Graham he has had us finishing top 4 for 4 seasons in a row, finished 2nd and reached a Champions League final. That despite playing away from him for a season and a half and signing noone at all last season. So your comparison with Gorgeous George is rubbish.

Tell me, which manager do you want to come in and replace Poch and explain why he will be better?

I said it in the match thread, if he played the same team as Tuesday (barring injury) and we got smashed, I would give him credit.

The one reason I believe he will turn this around despite the challenges at the moment, is because of the players who, if they stay, injury free could turn our season. The Kanes, the Ndombeles, the Lo Celsos, Son even Alli and Moura as well as the centre backs. So the the most pragmatic and sensible thing for him to do is to rotate them carefully to keep them fit for as long as possible.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Throw me a bone ...

- Explain the selection (Toby, Rose, Dele, Eriksen)
- Explain the lack of change at HT
- The first sub at 73+ minutes (and the obvious impact it had)
- When under the kosh for so fudging long, why would you save your last two subs until 83+ minutes?
- Why leave Eriksen and Dele on for so long?

Because right now the people who think Poch is doing a good job (40% loss ratio in PL this season, worse away game form/run since George Graham was manager) seem to have a fudging religious answer

- he moves in mysterious ways?
- he's thinking more long term than we can possibly understand?

I said it in the match thread, if he played the same team as Tuesday (barring injury) and we got smashed, I would give him credit.

Instead he went back to exactly the same brick and same group of players that have failed for 10+ months, everyone knew that lineup wasn't going to win this game, and fudging Gazza is the only reason it wasn't a smash job. He can't be immune from criticism if he does the same brick over and over again

‘If he played the same team as Tuesday and we got smashed, I would give him credit.’

WTF man, you’ve lost it. You’re more keen to prove that your idea of what is or isn’t working is correct than you are to just analyse the situation on its own merits. Taking it the other way, if we won today, but he had picked Rose et al, would you give him no credit? You are so sure that your idea is correct and that he can possibly have any reason to do what he is doing, that you would rather give him credit if we got ‘smashed’, because it would be the thing that you would have done. Crazy.

He is thinking more long term than most understand (as proven by this thread) and he does have access to data that we don’t have. Belittle that all you want but it is true. You can keep going on about loss ratio but I don’t think anyone is saying that these results are good, or that we should be happy. But simply that we see a broader context.

I’ll repeat it. The pattern of the game, because we scored so early, meant we had a lead to protect and defended as such. Dele and Eriksen’s roles were playing deep and they broadly did a good job with the men they had to stick in. Eriksen was often chasing back on Robertson and Dele scarcely had any opportunity to show what he could do in attack because the entire team was deep.

I think we could have, and this is a repeated problem with this current squad, used the ball better in crucial moments. Sissoko had a chance to play Son through for an easy chance. We had many break away attempts where a little more quality and composure would have allowed the team to move up. Son missed an open goal. But broadly speaking, it was a tight game, we kept their dangerous attack largely subdued and despite them having the territory because of the pattern of the game, they needed a penalty to beat us.