Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[billyiddo]

The thing is both can be true, Poch can be under performing AND the circumstances out of his control can be setting us/him up for failure - it's not an either/or situation and the reason there seems to so many excuses made for him is that our situation is the culmination of 3 or 4 seasons of decisions coming to a head, death by a thousand cuts so to speak.

Poch hasn't forgotten how to be a manager, he's demonstratably a very good one and to bin him off because of a less than acceptable period where he is working in less than ideal circumstances would be short sighted to the extreme.

 

[Raziel]

The thing is both can be true, Poch can be under performing AND the circumstances out of his control can be setting us/him up for failure - it's not an either/or situation and the reason there seems to so many excuses made for him is that our situation is the culmination of 3 or 4 seasons of decisions coming to a head, death by a thousand cuts so to speak.

And perhaps that is the nothing more to be said end ...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The thing is both can be true, Poch can be under performing AND the circumstances out of his control can be setting us/him up for failure - it's not an either/or situation and the reason there seems to so many excuses made for him is that our situation is the culmination of 3 or 4 years of things going against us one way or the other, death by a thousand cuts so to speak.

And thats why I talk about people adding too many dimensions to the argument and muddying the water.

I do understand things have been challenging. Would be a fool to deny it. My issue though is far more fundamental than that.

At its most base level, Poch should be doing better with the team he has available right now. All of the above is noise around that, distorting the point.

For example, Eriksen isnt performing, he shouldnt be playing, we have alternatives - Poch is making a (persistent) mistake in continuing to use him.

There are no mitigations around that, it is very simply the case Poch should be doing a better job.

Similarly the complete lack of direction/shape/cohesion in the team. I made the point the other day, Poch seems to be like a manager new to a squad he knows nothing about, trying to work out what his best team/shape is. There is really no excuse for that to be the case.

Our form has been declining for almost a year. ALL of last season I was unequivocally supportive of Poch, and right now - Im not going to start changing that view of last season. It was a horrendous situation in terms of the lack of pre season, injury, internationals messing us up, stadium issues...

I accept things went to brick last year and apportion no real blame to anyone, as you say death by a thousand cuts.

Problem is, that decline in form has now continued. And what changes for me, is the summer.

Poch had a full pre season with the players. Players who were fully rested. And he had the chance to really forge a team again, rediscover our best form, work on a shape/formation, and hit the season with real intent. Regardless of new players being available or not, we should have been able to hit the ground running.

And this is where my feelings to Poch have turned. It is my genuine belief that he has simply not been doing that job. Not well enough, and not as well as he has in the past. We are directionless, lacking identity. That comes from the manager.

We could be losing every game but if it was clear we were working on a plan I would have patience. If it was clear we were progressing along a path I would have patience.

To me, its clear the opposite is currently the case.

How often are situations like that recovered?

I dont actively want Poch gone, at all - but I recognise at the moment (and without a rather dramatic change in form) that seems to be the most likely outcome. Question then becomes when, how long to you give before you have to act? How long before the season cannot be recovered and is a write off? Is that a price we are willing to pay?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Poch hasn't forgotten how to be a manager, he's demonstratably a very good one and to bin him off because of a less than acceptable period where he is working in less than ideal circumstances would be short sighted to the extreme.

I missed your edit when replying.

As you can see, actually I think Poch has forgotten how to be a manager (or, probably fairer to say, he isnt in the frame of mind to reach that level). He WAS demonstrably a very good one, that doesnt mean he IS right now.

Ive said it before, I think he is burned out, broken, and needs a rest.

I wouldnt fault him for that, last seasons efforts could do that to just about anyone.

As it is though, he is not currently a demonstrably very good manager, and there are scant signs of him recovering his mojo (IMO)

 

[billyiddo]

Not doing well in a particular set of 'testing' circumstances does not make a bad manager - soon these circumstances will no longer be in effect - we're already moving out of the sell to buy era and we'll soon have shot of the players seeing out their contracts along with Wanyama Rose and Aurier all seemingly being touted around so it seems finally the club are in a position to move on with things.

I wager by the new year with the introduction of Lo Celso and Sessegnon to the first team squad things on the pitch will have improved and top 6/top 4 will be an achievable target

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think the idea that Lo Celso and Sessegnon are magic bullets that will lead to us suddenly looking like a proper team again are wide of the mark.

And speak to the obvious difference in our view points. I dont think not having those players excuses the way we are setting up/playing now, I think it speaks to a manager needing to do better with what he has. You clearly feel otherwise.

 

[Raziel]

I think the idea that Lo Celso and Sessegnon are magic bullets that will lead to us suddenly looking like a proper team again are wide of the mark.

And speak to the obvious difference in our view points. I dont think not having those players excuses the way we are setting up/playing now, I think it speaks to a manager needing to do better with what he has. You clearly feel otherwise.

To me it's a little more than that.

- Let's play that out, let's say Lo Celso, N'dombele and Sanchez become starters and our performances completely turn around

What happens when one of those gets injured or hits bad run of form?

- Because what we are saying is the manager has not been able to compensate for not having a perfect squad.

But the conversation has hit the end .. for me the manager has failed, circumstances have not helped (I will admit), but now it's about what is the fastest and most likely route back to at least par performance for this squad. And that's where everyone is stuck.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think they are magic bullets either but they are new signings committed to the club long term who will come in to the fold and allow the manager to ease out certain individuals who are less committed. It won't solve all our problems but being able to line up with Lo Celso and Ndombele in the middle will only see an upturn.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don't think they are magic bullets either but they are new signings committed to the club long term who will come in to the fold and allow the manager to ease out certain individuals who are less committed. It won't solve all our problems but being able to line up with Lo Celso and Ndombele in the middle will only see an upturn.

Sanchez is a player committed to the club long term and has barely been able to buy a game while Alderweireld has been under performing drastically (while actively looking to leave).

Lamela and Alli are players committed to the club long term, and being sat on the bench watching Eriksen stink up the place.


KWP is as committed as it gets, one of our own, all that - and has to sit and watch Aurier playing like brick. A player widely touted for a January sale.


Davies, a committed and quality LB, watches Rose underperform week in, week out...


As Ive been saying, these are not issues forced on Poch that he will finally be able to deal with when new signings arrive/are fit.


These are decisions, often inexplicable, that Poch is making himself.


Of course the next argument will be "Well Sanchez hasnt played well either" or "You dont even rate KWP".... which might hold some weight if the players playing instead were actually performing. They arent, so give me an out of form and committed player - give them a chance to play into form, and show faith in them, over playing someone who is also out of form and actively looking to leave.

As I say, its very clear we see things very differently.

 

[billyiddo]

As ive said previously he's caught between a rock and a hard place - do you go with the higher quality player playing at less than 100% focus or do you go with the lesser player who is committed? Easy to say now which is right but im sure you'd be arguing the opposite if results suffered the other way around.

What i will add is that Poch isn't someone who makes decisions lightly and likes to give players/his ideas a fair amount of time to prove right or wrong

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As ive said previously he's caught between a rock and a hard place - do you go with the higher quality player playing at less than 400% focus or do you go with the lesser player who is committed? Easy to say now which is right but im sure you'd be arguing the opposite if results suffered the other way around.

Absolutely I would not. Ive stated, repeatedly, its not about the results - its about the performance and direction of travel.

I would be lauding Pochettino for showing the leadership to make the cut.

I would applaud him for showing faith in the players that represent the future, showing belief in them. And I would applaud him for making a stand and showing no matter who you are - the team/club comes first. Less than 100% commitment and youre out.

I dont see it as rock and hard place stuff. By all means, give Eriksen and co a few games to see if they will perform (ala Modric), but once the answer to that question is obvious - and it has been for a while - then the decision is a very simple one.

Poch talks about team 2.0, but when given the golden opportunity to take steps toward it, refuses.

And in the meantime we are rudderless. Diamond one week, 4321 the next, 451 the next, and despite players running hard - no real sign of an identity, a system, a model to build from.

 

[billyiddo]

Absolutely I would not. Ive stated, repeatedly, its not about the results - its about the performance and direction of travel.

I would be lauding Pochettino for showing the leadership to make the cut.

I would applaud him for showing faith in the players that represent the future, showing belief in them. And I would applaud him for making a stand and showing no matter who you are - the team/club comes first. Less than 400% commitment and youre out.

I dont see it as rock and hard place stuff. By all means, give Eriksen and co a few games to see if they will perform (ala Modric), but once the answer to that question is obvious - and it has been for a while - then the decision is a very simple one.

Poch talks about team 2.0, but when given the golden opportunity to take steps toward it, refuses.

And in the meantime we are rudderless. Diamond one week, 4321 the next, 451 the next, and despite players running hard - no real sign of an identity, a system, a model to build from.

If i asked you whether you'd ever want Mourinho to manage Spurs whilst he was at United you'd probably have been equally certain you wouldn't- people pull a 180 at the drop of a hat in testing times

 

[NickTB]

As much as I don’t want Mou here, if he goes to the arse I can only see him strengthening them

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

If i asked you whether you'd ever want Mourinho to manage Spurs whilst he was at United you'd probably have been equally certain you wouldn't- people pull a 180 at the drop of a hat in testing times

So now Im just a liar?

I think I have been absolutely consistent in what I want from Poch. In fact, pretty much since he got here. And Ive had very little to complain about to now. And ultimately, what Im looking for from him, is exactly what he has done in the past - and is failing to do now.

I am being supportive of the man he was, not the man he is. I want to see old Poch back. New Poch is a wet blanket.

If I tell you that him playing those other players would have strengthened my belief in him, and that I would support that action, then thats the truth of it.

 

[Raziel]

If i asked you whether you'd ever want Mourinho to manage Spurs whilst he was at United you'd probably have been equally certain you wouldn't- people pull a 180 at the drop of a hat in testing times

At any point in Jose's career past Porto, if he was an option for Spurs, we would/should have at least considered him.

We could have come up with a no, but only the most idiotic or idealistic person would not at least think it through

As much as I don’t want Mou here, if he goes to the arse I can only see him strengthening them

Absolutely, they are a good attacking side with no defensive discipline, he could make a significant impact.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As much as I don’t want Mou here, if he goes to the arse I can only see him strengthening them

Toss a coin on that one, for me.

I think in theory he would absolutely strengthen them, significantly, in precisely the area they need it most.

Though in practice, given his history with the club/Wenger, and given the fans demand for a certain style of play, I cant help thinking it would never get the chance to develop.

 

[billyiddo]

Im sure you do believe that's how you would react, so no im not calling you a liar mate - i just think no one can say with any deal of certainty how they would react to hypothetical situations. @Finney Is Back done a pretty good job of highlighting your views on Mourinho a while back which are a complete reversal of what you are saying now, so...

Im pretty certain we'd see a similar level of reaction to poor form in the reverse situation because the root of all negativity towards Poch is the results and form - peoples arguments are then fit around what actions have been taken by the manager.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Im sure you do believe that's how you would react, so no im not calling you a liar mate - i just think no one can say with any deal of certainty how they would react to hypothetical situations. Im pretty certain we'd see a similar level of reaction to poor form in the reverse situation because the root of all begativity towards Poch is the results and form - peoples arguments are then fit around what actions have been taken.

I can only speak for myself.

You have seen me post here for a very long time, and Im pretty sure if you were to think about it you would know Ive always been a supporter of the manager taking charge in that sort of way. Its one of the reasons I was such a fan of Poch in the first place.

Ive been calling for those exact changes all along. Just as Ive been calling for a shape and plan evident in the team. And just as Ive said, the whole time, that is far more important than results.

While there will be situations where you could be right, I firmly believe this is not one of them.

 

[parklane1]

Let him go, that way we can recover this season, him his career and his fanboys can remember him before he drags us any further down.

I am surprised that you feel like that as i have always thought your posts were mostly fair and thought out and very rarely ( if ever) resort to name calling. To be honest i do not know one fan on here or at games ( and i go to all of them) that does not see/believe that we are struggling at the moment.

But for many of the fans i know/meet at games consider that what Poch has done for us over the last 5 years deserves a bit more backing then what some fans seem to be doing now. I know football fans as a whole can be quick on wanting the change button activated ( look at how many times it has happened here over the decades) but on most occasions its done when there has been no progress as a whole, i think all fans can agree that we have seen massive progress over the time Poch has been here.

As i said we can all see that we are having a rough time at the moment but some believe that he is finished while others think he deserves a little more patience and time to sort it out.

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[Raziel]

I am surprised that you feel like that as i have always thought your posts were mostly fair and thought out and very rarely ( if ever) resort to name calling. To be honest i do not know one fan on here or at games ( and i go to all of them) that does not see/believe that we are struggling at the moment.

But for many of the fans i know/meet at games consider that what Poch has done for us over the last 5 years deserves a bit more backing then what some fans seem to be doing now. I know football fans as a whole can be quick on wanting the change button activated ( look at how many times it has happened here over the decades) but on most occasions its done when there has been no progress as a whole, i think all fans can agree that we have seen massive progress over the time Poch has been here.

As i said we can all see that we are having a rough time at the moment but some believe that he is finished while others think he deserves a little more patience and time to sort it out.

​

To be honest mate, it was a little OTT, frustration showing through ...

I do get it, we are all in the same boat, this club means more to us than can ever make sense and we all want the best in the way we think makes sense/logical or our ideals say.

And yes, if Poch turned around and ran off 10 victories the complaints would go away, but the same could be said if Jose came in and ran off 10 victories in a row.