Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[billyiddo]

Neither are useful ways to predict future performance unless you weight in circumstance/external factors.

Now we're seemingly in a position to back the manager with regards to squad requirements its how he performed previously that is a more telling indicator than how he is performing with the current squad with so much transition in the first XI to churn through.

 

[scaramanga]

That wasnt your point. You said it had no bearing whatsoever

It doesn't when what you require now is not the same as what was provided before.

 

[scaramanga]

Neither are useful ways to predict future performance unless you weight in circumstance.

2nd best team in 11th place is a fairly useful circumstance.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Well no not exactly. Past performance is an indicator of how someone could perform in the future. It is an important factor in the appointment of any successor and the reason why Poch gets the benefit of the doubt from some fans and a chairman as tough as Daniel Levy.

Its also a handy indicator as to how far a level of performance has fallen.

Its not all about "well he can get back there!" (which is a maybe), its also a "Well look how much he has dropped off"

 

[billyiddo]

2nd best team in 11th place is a fairly useful circumstance.

Someone who thinks they're as clever as you do shouldn't really come out with stuff like that if they expect to be taken seriously

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Neither are useful ways to predict future performance unless you weight in circumstance/external factors.

Now we're seemingly in a position to back the manager with regards to squad requirements its how he performed previously that is a more telling indicator than how he is performing with the current squad with so much transition in the first XI to churn through.

How much transition?

We currently have 3 players to integrate, and the basis of a very good team already established. After that Id say we were probably a contract for Jan and a decent RB away from an incredible side. Get a RB in Jan, a CB in summer - doesnt really scream huge transition to me.

How much drop off is actually acceptable?

I mean, we clearly have dropped of a hell of a lot - but Im not convinced its justified.

Im wondering just how much how far we have dropped is clouding peoples thinking.

 

[billyiddo]

How much transition?

We currently have 3 players to integrate, and the basis of a very good team already established. After that Id say we were probably a contract for Jan and a decent RB away from an incredible side. Get a RB in Jan, a CB in summer - doesnt really scream huge transition to me.

How much drop off is actually acceptable?

I mean, we clearly have dropped of a hell of a lot - but Im not convinced its justified.

Im wondering just how much how far we have dropped is clouding peoples thinking.

Transition being the moving on of the gang of players already spoken about and the integration of their replacements - start of next season with 2 more windows under our belt should be enough to see it through - if this summer is a signal of where we are.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Transition being the moving on of the gang of players already spoken about and the integration of their replacements - start of next season with 2 more windows under our belt should be enough to see it through - if this summer is a signal of where we are.

Replacements are in place for Alderweireld and Eriksen literally right now, they just arent getting games.

There is a second senior LB ready to play ahead of Rose who isnt getting games (and while I know you are a fan of Rose, I also know you respect what Davies can do, and I doubt you are happy with Roses performance levels). We also have Sessegnon to follow through behind through this season (rumoured as soon as this weekend)

The midfield replacements are in place and should be well acclimated soon. And in the meantime the options we have should be able to be set up in an effective way.

The real and obvious issue, to my eye, is RB*.

Personally I think Aurier has done enough so show we just cant rely on him. Ive been all for seeing the potential in him to now, but the worm has finally turned on him for me.
It seems Poch is set on Foyth. Cant say Im a fan of the idea, but willing to see what it amounts to - hopefully Poch sees something I dont.
KWP, while no world beater, would be a reliable 6/10 player every week, and cant get a game. Honestly do not understand whats going on with him.

So potentially we may not even need a RB.

The other real/obvious issue to me is Vertonghen, and depth/succession at CB.

Sanchez was bought to replace Alderweireld, and should be as we speak. So Id like to see another RCB (assuming Foyth is no longer that) to come in as cover/development.

Vertonghen, Id give a deal. I think he can still perform. But regardless of whether he stays or goes, we do need another LCB IMO. Ideally one good enough to step in pretty soon if need be (Ake linked, not against the idea at all).


So really, I dont actually see this massive transition or need for so many first team players.

What I see is that we have been building a squad, with the idea being young players succeed older players, and that work (should be) paying off for the most part.

Buy a RB in Jan, a CB in the summer (or Jan if poss), and after that everything is really looking pretty good to be honest.

Then we are back into the regular kind of routine of one or two bigger buys each year, and one or two "to develop" buys each year. Just general maintenance.

 

[scaramanga]

Someone who thinks they're as clever as you do shouldn't really come out with stuff like that if they expect to be taken seriously

You can substitute 2nd for 3rd if you like and the point still stands.

 

[Robspur12]

It doesn't when what you require now is not the same as what was provided before.

Nothing has changed. We need what we needed before. Unless we are playing netball now?

 

[scaramanga]

Nothing has changed. We need what we needed before. Unless we are playing netball now?

What we wanted before was to move from a team regularly finishing in the top 6 to a team regularly finishing in the top 4. Poch has done incredibly well in achieving that.

What we now need is to become a team that regularly finishes in the top 1. In attempting to do so, Poch has us currently playing like a team that will be lucky to finish in the top 17.

 

[Robspur12]

What we wanted before was to move from a team regularly finishing in the top 6 to a team regularly finishing in the top 4. Poch has done incredibly well in achieving that.

What we now need is to become a team that regularly finishes in the top 1. In attempting to do so, Poch has us currently playing like a team that will be lucky to finish in the top 17.

Er no what you are asking for is totally unrealistic on our budget. To be a team being in the top 1 regularly we need to invest a lot more money. It doesn't just happen through good coaching alone. Poch has taken us to within a place of being the best in the league and being Champions of Europe. I don't see how you can better that without a lot more investment.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Replacements are in place for Alderweireld and Eriksen literally right now, they just arent getting games.

There is a second senior LB ready to play ahead of Rose who isnt getting games (and while I know you are a fan of Rose, I also know you respect what Davies can do, and I doubt you are happy with Roses performance levels). We also have Sessegnon to follow through behind through this season (rumoured as soon as this weekend)

The midfield replacements are in place and should be well acclimated soon. And in the meantime the options we have should be able to be set up in an effective way.

The real and obvious issue, to my eye, is RB*.

Personally I think Aurier has done enough so show we just cant rely on him. Ive been all for seeing the potential in him to now, but the worm has finally turned on him for me.
It seems Poch is set on Foyth. Cant say Im a fan of the idea, but willing to see what it amounts to - hopefully Poch sees something I dont.
KWP, while no world beater, would be a reliable 6/10 player every week, and cant get a game. Honestly do not understand whats going on with him.

So potentially we may not even need a RB.

The other real/obvious issue to me is Vertonghen, and depth/succession at CB.

Sanchez was bought to replace Alderweireld, and should be as we speak. So Id like to see another RCB (assuming Foyth is no longer that) to come in as cover/development.

Vertonghen, Id give a deal. I think he can still perform. But regardless of whether he stays or goes, we do need another LCB IMO. Ideally one good enough to step in pretty soon if need be (Ake linked, not against the idea at all).

So really, I dont actually see this massive transition or need for so many first team players.

What I see is that we have been building a squad, with the idea being young players succeed older players, and that work (should be) paying off for the most part.

Buy a RB in Jan, a CB in the summer (or Jan if poss), and after that everything is really looking pretty good to be honest.

Then we are back into the regular kind of routine of one or two bigger buys each year, and one or two "to develop" buys each year. Just general maintenance.

I'm with you on most of this.... Although I think the biggest area of need we have in the team and squad is for a top class defensive minded midfield player. That is an even bigger hole than at right back I think. I think we need to somehow address that gap sooner rather than later and might need to over pay in January to get this done.

I would like Foyth to be retained an an option at centre half instead of moved to right back. Like you I would like to see Vertonghen given a new deal and Sanchez given a run to see if he can sink or swim.

Same as you I would like to see Davies swap with Rose for now. I suspect Sessegnon has been signed as a player to play in a more attacking role. If not then Davies and him is enough left back cover. If so then bring in a young player from the championship (Jay Dasilva from Bristol City would be my top pick (although he is coming back from a broken leg) otherwise Rico Henry from Brentford.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Er no what you are asking for is totally unrealistic on our budget. To be a team being in the top 1 regularly we need to invest a lot more money. It doesn't just happen through good coaching alone. Poch has taken us to within a place of being the best in the league and being Champions of Europe. I don't see how you can better that without a lot more investment.

I actually think if Levy backed Poch (or A N Other if it doesn't work out) in Jan and next summer it could be achieved.

-----------------Lloris
?---------------?------Vertonghen-------?
----------NDombele------?
----Lo Celso----Dele--------Son
----------------- Kane

I think there are 7 players there good enough to be in a title winning team.

Sanchez, Davies, Moura, Lamela, Sessegnon, Winks, Sissoko, Foyth and Dier as bench options would probably also be considered to be title winning in its standard.

The problem is that the positions where were aren't yet good enough are 4 of the 6 more defensive positions in the team.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I'm with you on most of this.... Although I think the biggest area of need we have in the team and squad is for a top class defensive minded midfield player. That is an even bigger hole than at right back I think. I think we need to somehow address that gap sooner rather than later and might need to over pay in January to get this done.

Really depends how you see the team shape/dynamic IMO.

I was convinced all summer we were moving to a 433. And I do tend to agree with Scara in that having 3 quality players in there, none need be an explicit DM.

Espcially when you consider how much we expect to have the ball. Seems to me it would be more sensible to have more 'ballers, able to swarm and pressure to get the ball back - than to lose a 'baller in favour of an explicitly defensive presence.

At our peak, Wanyama spent most of his days sitting on the half way line and knocking the ball out to the full backs as we had camped in the oppos third.

So no, I dont think a DM is necessarily a big deal really.

That said, if Poch really really wants to set up with one, then its not unreasonable to look into it.

Two points on that.
1- Is Dier really that broken he cant do the job again?
2- Am I the only one who noticed Sissoko doing that exact job against RSB?*

I would like Foyth to be retained an an option at centre half instead of moved to right back. Like you I would like to see Vertonghen given a new deal and Sanchez given a run to see if he can sink or swim.

I think Sanchez has already shown he swims. Its more about getting him back into his groove and then developing him from there. Easily good enough, IMO.

Im a Foyth fan boy, and see him as a CB. My issues with him really are Pochs insistence on him as a RB, really not sure I see how that one works. Though happy to be proven wrong, if thats the case.

Possibly its a stop gap? Get some minutes into Foyth in a less dangerous position while scouting a proper RB? (though if thats the case it begs the question of precisely when did KWP brick in Pochs cornflakes?)

Same as you I would like to see Davies swap with Rose for now. I suspect Sessegnon has been signed as a player to play in a more attacking role. If not then Davies and him is enough left back cover. If so then bring in a young player from the championship (Jay Dasilva from Bristol City would be my top pick (although he is coming back from a broken leg) otherwise Rico Henry from Brentford.

A bit like the DM point above - when we expect to be dominating the ball (and territory) I think Sessegnon as an attacking LB actually makes a fair deal of sense.

I also think he is a ready made wing back, and Poch tried moving to that 352 system a while back but dropped it with injuries.

So yeah, maybe he is actually competition to Son ultimately, but personally I wouldnt be surprised to see him used further back.

Dasilva and Henry are good players. We need to shop in the championship more, like we used to.




EDIT *Sissoko - Ive been saying for two bloody seasons that if he plays Id make him a DM with strict instruction on not roaming and playing it simple. The two best performances Ive seen from him are Chelsea and RSB. To the degree where I thought he actually looked a Spurs level player (even though against RSB he managed to spas it straight out of play )

 

[Pirate55]

Really depends how you see the team shape/dynamic IMO.

I was convinced all summer we were moving to a 433. And I do tend to agree with Scara in that having 3 quality players in there, none need be an explicit DM.

Espcially when you consider how much we expect to have the ball. Seems to me it would be more sensible to have more 'ballers, able to swarm and pressure to get the ball back - than to lose a 'baller in favour of an explicitly defensive presence.

At our peak, Wanyama spent most of his days sitting on the half way line and knocking the ball out to the full backs as we had camped in the oppos third.

So no, I dont think a DM is necessarily a big deal really.

That said, if Poch really really wants to set up with one, then its not unreasonable to look into it.

Two points on that.
1- Is Dier really that broken he cant do the job again?
2- Am I the only one who noticed Sissoko doing that exact job against RSB?*




I think Sanchez has already shown he swims. Its more about getting him back into his groove and then developing him from there. Easily good enough, IMO.

Im a Foyth fan boy, and see him as a CB. My issues with him really are Pochs insistence on him as a RB, really not sure I see how that one works. Though happy to be proven wrong, if thats the case.

Possibly its a stop gap? Get some minutes into Foyth in a less dangerous position while scouting a proper RB? (though if thats the case it begs the question of precisely when did KWP brick in Pochs cornflakes?)




A bit like the DM point above - when we expect to be dominating the ball (and territory) I think Sessegnon as an attacking LB actually makes a fair deal of sense.

I also think he is a ready made wing back, and Poch tried moving to that 352 system a while back but dropped it with injuries.

So yeah, maybe he is actually competition to Son ultimately, but personally I wouldnt be surprised to see him used further back.

Dasilva and Henry are good players. We need to shop in the championship more, like we used to.




EDIT *Sissoko - Ive been saying for two bloody seasons that if he plays Id make him a DM with strict instruction on not roaming and playing it simple. The two best performances Ive seen from him are Chelsea and RSB. To the degree where I thought he actually looked a Spurs level player (even though against RSB he managed to spas it straight out of play )

I agree DM is Sissokos best position. He really needs Poch to get him to focus on his defensive duties and pass the ball simply. He really shouldn’t get anywhere the oppositions penalty area as he seemingly gets a nose bleed ( ie brain freeze) as soon as he crosses the halfway line.

 

[MKSpur]

I was reading a little about Eddie Jones’ background and saw an interesting statement that isn’t a million miles off what I think we’ve been going through:


England were on a roll which would eventually end in a world-record equalling run of 18 consecutive Test victories. Jones waved a cautionary finger and surprised me again. He warned that there would be dips and setbacks. “Wait until the third season, mate,” he said. “We might hit a bit of a low then.”

Jones had reviewed the records of southern-hemisphere coaches who had worked in Six Nations rugby. They all suffered a third-year dip. After a honeymoon first season, in which they radically improved the fitness of their northern-hemisphere team, they continued to drive up skill levels in year two. By the time the third season unfolded the southern-hemisphere lift paled as familiarity set in and standards stagnated. This was a four-year project, Jones stressed, and the way he dealt with a third-year slide would shape England’s World Cup chances in 2019.

Obviously a major difference is that there is no peak for club managers but there does seem to be parallels with the three year cycle.

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2...p-japan-2019-hard-road-preparation-everything

 

[scaramanga]

Er no what you are asking for is totally unrealistic on our budget. To be a team being in the top 1 regularly we need to invest a lot more money. It doesn't just happen through good coaching alone. Poch has taken us to within a place of being the best in the league and being Champions of Europe. I don't see how you can better that without a lot more investment.

If we're putting in a lot of investment then why are we taking such a risk with our current manager?

If the answer to winning the title is buying all the players then why aren't we recruiting one of those proven winners who we apparently don't want because they'll want to buy all the players?

 

[Robspur12]

If we're putting in a lot of investment then why are we taking such a risk with our current manager?

If the answer to winning the title is buying all the players then why aren't we recruiting one of those proven winners who we apparently don't want because they'll want to buy all the players?

Are you are saying that Poch should be able to achieve top 1 even if we don’t invest the money? Bit of an unrealistic expectation.

 

[scaramanga]

Are you are saying that Poch should be able to achieve top 1 even if we don’t invest the money? Bit of an unrealistic expectation.

He should at least be challenging for 2nd. We've got the 2nd (some say 3rd) best team in the country and the gap to 4th is massive.

Poch should, at the very least, have the team playing better than the sum of its parts or else there's no point in him being here. He hasn't done that for a long while now.