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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
benp
Reto Ziegler
I hear a lot of what the anti-poch section are saying.
I do think Poch is imperfect as a manager (no need for detail but subs, rotation, emotional consistency, difficulty with established players).
I do think that in individual circumstances if another manager had been transplanted in, we might have achieved a different result. I think a different manager could potentially have won the CL final as a one-off, or made sure we didn't give away teh two goal lead at arsenal.
You can't do that in real life though; you're generally stuck with one guy for a while. If we look at pochettinos collective achievements at spurs and his journey here as a whole, it's absolutely incredible.
From tactics Tim to CL finalists, a legitimate title push season, and consistent top 4... I'm not sure another manager could have done that who is available now. Maybe Mourinho could have done it? He's a great manager too. Could he unite the fans and club together at the same time that pochettino has done? I don't think so. Could Eddie howe? Not for me. Zidane? I doubt it and he had massive success at Real.
Poch was perfect for us then. It's hard times now, but you don't break up with your wife after a couple of months of rowing because you know that the fundamentals are right and have been before. You work your way back to where you were before and you stay loyal. If you don't, you might have five minutes of fun, but in the long run, your life ends up worse than it would have been if you had hung on.
This situation feels the same.
We know him, he knows us, it has been fantastic before, it isn't right now. This is in my opinion where we can make a hard choice. We can be the fickle spurs fans every other club thinks we are, or we can double down and show our loyalty to one who could well end up being one of our own. I know the narrative that I want for my club, and I don't need to jump at things now - I'm 28 years in at spurs now and it has never been so good.
I'm not ready to give that up yet on another roll of the dice, and at the same time I understand my braver fellow spurs who want us to just kick on that last few yards now.
P.S. sticking my neck out here, but I'd take 3 years of no CL qualification / no trophy right now. I'm really happy to go in for the long haul - it always has been with us anyway
Sent from my GM1910 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
I do think Poch is imperfect as a manager (no need for detail but subs, rotation, emotional consistency, difficulty with established players).
I do think that in individual circumstances if another manager had been transplanted in, we might have achieved a different result. I think a different manager could potentially have won the CL final as a one-off, or made sure we didn't give away teh two goal lead at arsenal.
You can't do that in real life though; you're generally stuck with one guy for a while. If we look at pochettinos collective achievements at spurs and his journey here as a whole, it's absolutely incredible.
From tactics Tim to CL finalists, a legitimate title push season, and consistent top 4... I'm not sure another manager could have done that who is available now. Maybe Mourinho could have done it? He's a great manager too. Could he unite the fans and club together at the same time that pochettino has done? I don't think so. Could Eddie howe? Not for me. Zidane? I doubt it and he had massive success at Real.
Poch was perfect for us then. It's hard times now, but you don't break up with your wife after a couple of months of rowing because you know that the fundamentals are right and have been before. You work your way back to where you were before and you stay loyal. If you don't, you might have five minutes of fun, but in the long run, your life ends up worse than it would have been if you had hung on.
This situation feels the same.
We know him, he knows us, it has been fantastic before, it isn't right now. This is in my opinion where we can make a hard choice. We can be the fickle spurs fans every other club thinks we are, or we can double down and show our loyalty to one who could well end up being one of our own. I know the narrative that I want for my club, and I don't need to jump at things now - I'm 28 years in at spurs now and it has never been so good.
I'm not ready to give that up yet on another roll of the dice, and at the same time I understand my braver fellow spurs who want us to just kick on that last few yards now.
P.S. sticking my neck out here, but I'd take 3 years of no CL qualification / no trophy right now. I'm really happy to go in for the long haul - it always has been with us anyway
Sent from my GM1910 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Very good post and one that i can agree with most of , i still would like us to WIN something because the thing we are missing more then anything is a winners mentality. Cue all those who believe its not important steaming in.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Which one of Liverpool or Emirates Marketing Project do you consider us to have a better team than?
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
I don’t think anyone would disagree that winning something is great and important. However, I am willing to forgo it for now, if it means to continued progress in the League and Champions League.” For now” being the key phrase of course.
Winning is important, no one has said otherwise apart from the voices in PL1s head it would seem, however focussing on a cup run over the league doesn't guarantee a win and we have seen with the CL final that the good will it generates soon evaporates if your league form suffers.
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Victimpool, obv.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Seriously? I think they would have 7 players who would be definite starters in our team (keeper, right and left sided fullbacks, at least one of their centre halves, Fabinho in the centre of midfield, Mane and Salah). Do you really think we have a better team than them?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I am genuinely and generally still very surprised, given all we have seen in football over the last few years, that people are so easy boiling it down to ‘the results have been bad so manager bad’ without applying the wider context. And by levelling a bunch of things at the manager that he would be doing whether we are winning or losing, but are now the reasons we are losing supposedly.
Particularly when you see Mourinho mentioned. He is a fantastic example of a Manager that under the right circumstances has a brilliant record, and under the wrong circumstances has results go against him. Or when we can do obviously see Klopp’s example from Dortmund, whereby he knew that his team had come to the end of a cycle and there needed to be a change. Or Zidane, who saw the writing on the wall with Madrid as after so much winning he saw a bad season coming. I’d be really interested in reading the Madrid forums when they are not getting results. All the stuff Zidane does when they are winning is suddenly held against him when they are losing, I’m sure of it. Despite the fact that he saw that the group he had was going to decline. That was the circumstance.
People are talking like if you get Mourinho in, it all goes better. He’s a winner. Well, yeah, if he has the right circumstances around him. Otherwise he finishes 6th with the biggest budget in the League. There are no guarantees. The Dortmund example is interesting because Klopp decided it was the opportunity to move on, but in our instance we have built a club up from the second table to the top tier. So there is still room to go for Poch. But the idea that over the long term it would all be plain sailing is just wrong.
The analogy above around the troubled relationship I think is a great one. I’m sure in it, you both say or do things that you regret in the bad moments but you work at it because over the long term the benefits are greater. I have no doubt that bringing a new Manager in now for example would give us a short term boost, just by virtue of their being a new voice and new impetus. But I’d rather stick on the long term plan that we have with a Manager that is clearly talented.
I’d also rather wait until this season plays out before making claims like ‘we should be doing better than 12’ or whatever. Well of course! And Sheffield United should be doing worse. Let’s see how that shakes out. I’d also rather look at the wider circumstances because all of the stories around football from the last few years I would have thought destroyed the myth of the all powerful Manager who is just undoubtedly good. It is about the right man for the right times, and the right circumstances for the club. Ranieri is not the great Manager that ever lived because of what he did for Leicester, but it was a great moment in time where he played his part. Mourinho is clearly someone that has a very particular set of skills, but there’s no telling how long the benefits would last with us. Poch was not an unmistakeable GHod of Management purely because of what he has done for us in his first few years. He is exceptionally talented, and also benefited from a club getting on entirely the same page.
I just remain pretty stunned that people can’t see a wider picture, and are so keen to point out recent results as if they mean anything about his ability or suitability for us. In the last year we have reached a CL final and finished in the top 4. He was no more doing an outrageously good job in the first half of last season when we made our best ever start than he was doing a bad job in the second half. I am 90% sure he decided to leverage the conditioning of the players who didn’t have a holiday or a pre season because of the World Cup and used that to make a fast start, knowing we may slip in consistency toward the end. Sport has leading and lagging indicators, and things we don’t see. Sport has ups and downs. Sport has form. Sport has a pretty commonly accepted principle that teams have a 3-4 year cycle. Talk of whether this or that player start or what comment he may have made in the press just completely miss the mark of the bigger picture going on.
Signings like N’Dombele and Lo Celso are examples of us being able to compete at the top table now. They are representative of the new era, an era that has pretty much paused for 2 years while we build a stadium and still try to maintain consistency at a level we have never reached before. We are on a long term project to raise us up a level and we are taking some medicine now because of challenging circumstances and the constraints we have operated under. But let’s judge Poch when we actually have this new team set. It doesn’t have to be too many new players, but it does have to be a new core, with new leaders and new motivation and new quality in specific positions. If it then doesn’t work, maybe he’s shown himself to be good for us for a time and hasn’t been able to adapt. But everything about him suggests to me he will adapt. Let’s get behind the man properly who has shown loyalty to us, has done the hard yards, and deserves through his achievements the opportunity to show what he can do when the constraints and loosened. There are no guarantees with Managers, it’s about getting the right one for the circumstances. And I think our circumstances have been particularly challenging. Just because someone may be able to come in and give us a short term boost, it doesn’t mean they have everything for us to continue the path that we are on long term.
Particularly when you see Mourinho mentioned. He is a fantastic example of a Manager that under the right circumstances has a brilliant record, and under the wrong circumstances has results go against him. Or when we can do obviously see Klopp’s example from Dortmund, whereby he knew that his team had come to the end of a cycle and there needed to be a change. Or Zidane, who saw the writing on the wall with Madrid as after so much winning he saw a bad season coming. I’d be really interested in reading the Madrid forums when they are not getting results. All the stuff Zidane does when they are winning is suddenly held against him when they are losing, I’m sure of it. Despite the fact that he saw that the group he had was going to decline. That was the circumstance.
People are talking like if you get Mourinho in, it all goes better. He’s a winner. Well, yeah, if he has the right circumstances around him. Otherwise he finishes 6th with the biggest budget in the League. There are no guarantees. The Dortmund example is interesting because Klopp decided it was the opportunity to move on, but in our instance we have built a club up from the second table to the top tier. So there is still room to go for Poch. But the idea that over the long term it would all be plain sailing is just wrong.
The analogy above around the troubled relationship I think is a great one. I’m sure in it, you both say or do things that you regret in the bad moments but you work at it because over the long term the benefits are greater. I have no doubt that bringing a new Manager in now for example would give us a short term boost, just by virtue of their being a new voice and new impetus. But I’d rather stick on the long term plan that we have with a Manager that is clearly talented.
I’d also rather wait until this season plays out before making claims like ‘we should be doing better than 12’ or whatever. Well of course! And Sheffield United should be doing worse. Let’s see how that shakes out. I’d also rather look at the wider circumstances because all of the stories around football from the last few years I would have thought destroyed the myth of the all powerful Manager who is just undoubtedly good. It is about the right man for the right times, and the right circumstances for the club. Ranieri is not the great Manager that ever lived because of what he did for Leicester, but it was a great moment in time where he played his part. Mourinho is clearly someone that has a very particular set of skills, but there’s no telling how long the benefits would last with us. Poch was not an unmistakeable GHod of Management purely because of what he has done for us in his first few years. He is exceptionally talented, and also benefited from a club getting on entirely the same page.
I just remain pretty stunned that people can’t see a wider picture, and are so keen to point out recent results as if they mean anything about his ability or suitability for us. In the last year we have reached a CL final and finished in the top 4. He was no more doing an outrageously good job in the first half of last season when we made our best ever start than he was doing a bad job in the second half. I am 90% sure he decided to leverage the conditioning of the players who didn’t have a holiday or a pre season because of the World Cup and used that to make a fast start, knowing we may slip in consistency toward the end. Sport has leading and lagging indicators, and things we don’t see. Sport has ups and downs. Sport has form. Sport has a pretty commonly accepted principle that teams have a 3-4 year cycle. Talk of whether this or that player start or what comment he may have made in the press just completely miss the mark of the bigger picture going on.
Signings like N’Dombele and Lo Celso are examples of us being able to compete at the top table now. They are representative of the new era, an era that has pretty much paused for 2 years while we build a stadium and still try to maintain consistency at a level we have never reached before. We are on a long term project to raise us up a level and we are taking some medicine now because of challenging circumstances and the constraints we have operated under. But let’s judge Poch when we actually have this new team set. It doesn’t have to be too many new players, but it does have to be a new core, with new leaders and new motivation and new quality in specific positions. If it then doesn’t work, maybe he’s shown himself to be good for us for a time and hasn’t been able to adapt. But everything about him suggests to me he will adapt. Let’s get behind the man properly who has shown loyalty to us, has done the hard yards, and deserves through his achievements the opportunity to show what he can do when the constraints and loosened. There are no guarantees with Managers, it’s about getting the right one for the circumstances. And I think our circumstances have been particularly challenging. Just because someone may be able to come in and give us a short term boost, it doesn’t mean they have everything for us to continue the path that we are on long term.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Also, this idea that has creeped into the debate that the squad we had was always going to reach regular top 4 consistency and go the distance in Europe is laughable nonsense, just as is the idea that money doesn’t matter because we are Tottenham, and we’ve figured out a way to level the playing field and make it so money isn’t an issue. What’s happening there is that Poch’s achievements in making us consistent are being confused with the idea it was always going to happen this way. Under Levy’s guidance we batted at par, as a consistent best of the rest team and we never really slid out of that position in the way that an Everton or a Saudi Sportswashing Machine, or a Villa had done. That is to Levy’s credit. And I’m sure once the stadium was built and we got an adequate Manager in, we would have batted at par once we could reap the benefits of the new money and be a consistent top 4 challenger. But Poch was the difference maker in having all of that happen way ahead of schedule. That’s why I say it was Levy’s long term plan combined with Poch’s talent. It wasn’t always going to happen. To suggest otherwise is rewriting of history, forgetting where he came from and frankly disparaging to the man that made it happen.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I would also say, I also massively disagree with the idea that ‘these things only end one way’ once bad form sets in. Maybe, with any other club that has a pretty set station. I think what Levy will absolutely realise is that we have done what no other club has really done since arguably United, and that is firmly establish ourselves at the top table without a Sugar Daddy cash injection. That has meant operating on sound financial principles, it has meant not making signings and it has meant not selling players when the squad needs a refresh. It has also meant that for players that joined us when we were still a best of the rest side and always imagined they would need to move on after a few years, because of our progress as a club there are only so many clubs that they can now consider a step up, and if those clubs don’t want them, they will
be harder to shift.
To maintain consistency of results while all of this has been going on has been a huge achievement. Poch will have immense credit in the bank with Levy because of this, and Levy won’t be stupid enough to assume we are just like any other club that needs to move on. The other club you can point to is Atletico who have done something similar - and whadaya know...they moved out a brick load of players this summer and bought a lot if new ones in.
To be able to pull of what we have done so far is an amazing achievement and we should be thankful that over the long term, our growth as a club is up and to the right. But the path to getting there isn’t just going to be smooth. We’re in a competitive sport, other clubs are going to have their successes and they aren’t going to make it easy for us. It’s about having trust and patience and staying the course to ensure we reap the long term benefit of having an especially talented Manager in charge. Not paying a fortune to sack him so that he can join a rival and we bring someone in who won’t have any guarantees themselves. To raise us up, and have us continue performing consistently while raising has been an awesome achievement. We now have a bump, but to expect their never to be bumps doing something delicate like we have done would just be naive.
be harder to shift.
To maintain consistency of results while all of this has been going on has been a huge achievement. Poch will have immense credit in the bank with Levy because of this, and Levy won’t be stupid enough to assume we are just like any other club that needs to move on. The other club you can point to is Atletico who have done something similar - and whadaya know...they moved out a brick load of players this summer and bought a lot if new ones in.
To be able to pull of what we have done so far is an amazing achievement and we should be thankful that over the long term, our growth as a club is up and to the right. But the path to getting there isn’t just going to be smooth. We’re in a competitive sport, other clubs are going to have their successes and they aren’t going to make it easy for us. It’s about having trust and patience and staying the course to ensure we reap the long term benefit of having an especially talented Manager in charge. Not paying a fortune to sack him so that he can join a rival and we bring someone in who won’t have any guarantees themselves. To raise us up, and have us continue performing consistently while raising has been an awesome achievement. We now have a bump, but to expect their never to be bumps doing something delicate like we have done would just be naive.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
I would take any comments made about Liverpool on here (by Scara in particular) with a massive shovel of salt. As you said, probably 7 of their players would walk into our team. The back four + the keeper minimum.
I still think we have at worst the 4th best squad in the league. I actually think Leicester might have the 3rd best currently.
Well, only the bit at the front, the bit in the middle and the bit at the back. And the guy who stands behind them.
I think our team at its peak easily beats theirs at their peak. Problem is, we haven't nearly seen our peak for some time now, whereas they are at theirs.
...
And we circle back to Poch again.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Agree with all other than Ham Salad... son for me every day of the week over him
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
Son would be absolutely outstanding for Liverpool.
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
Luckily Villa and Saints losing keeps the gap a bit to the bottom three. Gives us a bit of a cushion in case we get pummelled tomorrow.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Look around here for that answer mate!!!!
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
59 goals in 84 PL games from Salah Vs 44 in 138 for Son.