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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Problem is that we haven’t got a Delorean that can get up to 88mph.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
I’d still take Son
Som is more expansive and a direct running threat, who also uses his teams mates
Salad has a great record but has instability issues with his legs and is greedy
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Mane 51 goals in 103 games.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Surely it’s about more than goals though
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I think Salah has more assists than Son as well as more goals.
Perhaps because if his record over the last 44 games would have gotten any manager in the top 10 fired ..
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Lucky for Poch we’re in the bottom half then!
Salah is to be compared to Kane, Mane to Son, more accurate position/role in the team.
My opinion is Kane and Son in Pools team would score more than Salah and Mane, and in the opposite, Salah and Mane would struggle in our setup.
The real comparison is who do you think a Madrid or Barca would pay for, think it's pretty accepted Kane would be one of the most expensive players in the world if on the market.
Lucky for Poch we’re in the bottom half then!
Obviously ...
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I think it would be Kane instead of Firmino and Mané and Salah as the wide forwards.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
That would be some forward line. I’d love to see Son, Kane, Moura given a few games in a similar system, think it would terrorize in a similar way to Liverpool’s front 3 do.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
I agree
Play a pure holder in CM with Le Celso and NDombele behind and that team would terrorise most
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
If we are moving to a 4-3-3 then I think we still have a few questions to answer. Firstly Do we have good enough wide forwards? Son certainly is, but is Moura? Do we have any others? Perhaps Sessegnon will play as a wide forward from the left? It would seem that Jack Clarke is probably the sort of player to play as a wide forward in a 4-3-3. Hopefully we can get him back form Leeds in Jan and get him training with our first team so that he can at least be ready for next season if not before.
Also if we are to play a 4-3-3 then I still think we lack a real top class player to play in between (I presume) NDombele and Lo Celso. Sissoko can do a job there for now I guess but we need better than him if we want to be challenging for the title. Unfortunately I don't think either of Dier or Winks are good enough to play here in this system at the real top level.
While I agree to an extent that Wanyama didn't have to do huge amounts on the ball when we were at our peak, it was what he did when the opposition had the ball that was important. Even with us committing so many players forward teams still rarely scored against us on the break back then. Finding a peak Wanyama equivalent in a 4-3-3 I think would make us fantastic. I would actually have no qualms with Dier reverting back to his old preferred position of centre half. His attributes are probably better suited there, especially if we're moving to a 4-3-3 where the central midfield role is much bigger than role that Dier did pretty well a few years ago. I think at centre half Dier should get a bit more time on the ball so his iffy control and penchant to give the ball away in dangerous positions when quickly pressed may be less exposed. Once he has a bit of time on the ball Dier is actually a pretty good passer so dropping back to CH again could suit quite well.
I wonder whether a 4-3-3 also makes Dele a bit of a spare part? I'm not saying that this should mean we opt against this formation, but I don't see where Dele fits in. I think he has to develop quite a few aspects of his play to play as one of the wider two midfielders and I'm not sure that he has the pace and directness to play as one of the wide forwards? Maybe he would be a player sold to fund reinforcements?
I partly agree with you about Sanchez, at least that he is worth persevering with in the team. I think the jury is still out on whether he is good enough to play in a team that wants to win the title but I'd like to give him a run in the team so that we can properly form our opinion. One slight reservation I do have about Sanchez is that I think he is probably the least good footballer technically in our team, in terms of his passing ability. I guess the question is whether that really matters if he is playing as one of our central defenders?
I agree about Foyth. I think he has the physical and technical aspects to become a good player. Needs to sort out his decision making a bit and perhaps full back is a better place for that to happen.
Legohamster
Ian Walker
I was making the point about using a Moura/Kane link up in the same way England using Sterling/Kane to great affect.
Defenders stick on Kane which allows Sterling the space to attack with his pace.
Whilst Moura is clearly not Sterling, he has the ability to do it.
Defenders stick on Kane which allows Sterling the space to attack with his pace.
Whilst Moura is clearly not Sterling, he has the ability to do it.
Bishop
Pat van den Hauwe
Reading your post made me start wondering if maybe Fourth can do the job, he's obviously good 1on1 and his technique, passing and confidence on the ball seem to up to it. It might be unsettling pushing him to yet another position but maybe he could the missing link because at the moment we just don't have a player capable of playing DM to a high enough level.
On your other points the 433 seems to make sense considering the additions of Lo Celso and Ndombele but like you say we lack the RWF. Moura is a good play but typically in su h a system you want the player cutting in on their stronger foot. Lo Celso could potentially do the job but then we would lose his presence in midfield. It does feel like we are towards an evolution but haven't quite acquired all of the pieces we need.
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nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I dont know if you saw but Biesla said the other day Clarkes had some issues but is back now and looking to play, so maybe his loan can still be a success.
I think in Lamela/Son/Moura we have good wide forwards. I wonder if Lo Celso might be used in that capacity. Alli can work off the left pretty well. And as you say Sessegnon too.
Your mileage may vary on just how well you rate that group but I think its clearly a serviceable set of players, if only for now.
As I say, that really comes down the the dynamic you expect. Im ok with the idea of Winks, I think in a team with plenty of options/runners etc he could be excellent. Though I know you see otherwise and really dont fancy doing that whole dance again. Alternatively perhaps Skipp is the man? Maybe NDombele/Lo Celso end up as a double pivot with Alli ahead of them?
For me its more the nature of, do you want a DM?
......DM
..CM...CM
....DM....CM
.......CM(am?)
Or just a group of quality all round players?
....CM....CM
.......CM
When we are playing at our level, I think the latter is probably the greatest benefit, for most of most matches a DM would basically be redundant.
As I said though, if we really really need one, Im not against it. I guess my only thinking is its just not as essential to me as you make it sound.
I wouldnt be against Dier moving back either. Though I also like him in midfield (and again, I know you dont). As above, its a "your mileage may vary" thing. Personally I dont see getting in a DM as a real necessity.
Well this one, for me, actually opens pandoras box a bit.
In a 433 I could see Alli on the left cutting in, especially if we have an overlapping fullback like Sessegnon around.
I wouldnt be against him sitting ahead of a Lo Celso/NDombele pivot once everyone is up to speed.
BUT - if you look at the squad, it does seem to be a case that someone has to be the odd man out. Which begs the question, whats the plan?
- We just have a bigger squad, options are always good (and Poch needs to learn to effectively rotate)?
- We are just buying players we think are good and will work out the details later?
- We are buying to satisfy a clear tactical shape/plan? (if so, what actually is it?)
- We are looking to sell someone like Alli to fund a rebuild? (Id absolutely hate this to be honest)
I mean, if you start breaking it down - Im not entirely sure what the vision is behind the squad at the moment. Or, even if there is one?
I think its an icing on the cake thing, a bonus. Alderweirelds ability to pick a long pass is a wonderful attribute to have, but it is far from essential for his position.
Providing whoever plays CB has options to pass effectively, be that a CM dropping or something, a lack of passing finese is not a big deal for me.
As I say, if its a safe option to get minutes into him to develop him, Im not entirely against it.
Though Pochettino seems to have a real hard on for Foyth as RB, unless Im misreading him, and it concerns me to be honest. Foyth is a CB for me, and in time potentially a damn fine one.
Pochs insistence on Foyth at RB has apparently lead to him binning off KWP completely, preferring Sanchez and Aurier ahead of him, and I just cant fathom why. I dont personally think KWP has a long term future here, Im yet to be convinced he really has the quality (or possibly mentality), but I am convinced he deserves a chance - especially when the alternatives are so poor - and I also think he is ACTUALLY A RB, so surely even if he is 6/10 every game - its better to have a consistent, round peg, round hole approach?
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I don't see either of Lamela or Dele being able to play as a wide forward if we want to play a proper 4-3-3. I haven't seen enough of Lo Celso, but I thought he played a little more centrally for his previous club? (I thought he had typically played as one of 2 or 3 behind the striker, depending on their actual formation?)
I look at both Emirates Marketing Project and Liverpool as being the two teams in the league who probably have the most possession. Despite that fact both of them pick players who are very good defensively at the base of their midfield in Fernandinho and Fabinho. Admittedly both of them are decent on the ball as well and good passers, but their main attribute is their defensive skills and both M'City and Liverpool's squads have players who are better on the ball than these two and yet they are still first choices. I think that suggests how important both managers see having a defensive minded player in the team.. Unfortunately Winks doesn't have either that mindset or the physical attributes. Skipp?.... Maybe in time... I think he is at least two years away though (please let's get him out on a decent Championship loan Poch!)
I think Dier is just about passable as a DM if we want to play the 4-2-3-1. As the central player in a 3 though I think we would be exposed. From what I saw over the last couple of years other teams have realised that Dier is the best player in our team to press as he is poor when given no time and they seemed to start targeting this with him then making big mistakes.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I think neither Salah or Mane play especially wide for Liverpool, more in the channels. Yes, of course, at times they are out by the by line but for the most part they are attacking the box. The full backs are providing the real width.
Id imagine us in a similar vein. So I guess it depends on just how wide you personally expect the forwards to play in a 433.
Lo Celso, to my limited knowledge, was more a forward player at PSG, and dropped back to more a CM player at Betis (or vice versa).
What Ive seen of him playing suggests he could very easily replace Lamela and what he offers, IMO.
And a bit like Foyth, it would be a low-risk way of getting minutes into him.
That is a line of argument that just ends in tit for tat over details. For example, if those players werent so good on the ball, would they play? As you say - more defensive players are behind them in the pecking order. Indicates to me that the on the ball ability is the key....
Either way, as I said, its not essential to me - but Im not arguing against vehemently either.
Circling around to the points on how the team will set up in order to best use its players - IMO its a lot easier to do when not accomodating an explicit DM.
And by the same token, Diers ability to cover RB from CM, play defensive in CM, drop between the CBs to allow the FBs to attack - I think there is a very compelling argument to say he has been essential to our best form/shape/performances over the years, even if he might not be the best player technically (though IMO how good he is is very often understated).