Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Kompakted]

Slightly off on a tangent.
Maybe I am not remembering correctly but it doesn’t seem that long ago that Scandinavian countries were reportedly among the highest for both suicide and alcohol abuse.
Now they are held up as almost utopian paradises that we should be working towards.
Wonder when the switch came.

They slowly became some sort of model for those arguing that you could have more socialism without turning into China, Cuba or Venezuela. I think it accelerated during the Brexit debate where Scandinavia's varying degrees of involvement with EU or EEA treaties were analysed by both sides.

But I also think people like to romanticise stuff like New Zealand under Jucinda Ardern being some kind of utopia.

My favourite romanticism in British politics so far, however, has to be "I wish England had Nicola Sturgeon/the SNP in charge rather than the corrupt parties/politicians we have to put up with. Que the SNP/Sturgeons being the only politicians and party being subject to a huge corruption investigation......

 

[glasgowspur]

They slowly became some sort of model for those arguing that you could have more socialism without turning into China, Cuba or Venezuela. I think it accelerated during the Brexit debate where Scandinavia's varying degrees of involvement with EU or EEA treaties were analysed by both sides.

But I also think people like to romanticise stuff like New Zealand under Jucinda Ardern being some kind of utopia.

My favourite romanticism in British politics so far, however, has to be "I wish England had Nicola Sturgeon/the SNP in charge rather than the corrupt parties/politicians we have to put up with. Que the SNP/Sturgeons being the only politicians and party being subject to a huge corruption investigation......

Yeah it's funny about sturgeon.
I fondly recall all the posts on here about how marvellous she was, what a beautiful soul she was.
Just like I enjoy pointing out that despite me repeatedly saying they were all being fooled and when the downfall came it would be spectacular.
Strange how none of those posters ever engage on it when I bring it up now.

 

[Mikey10]

Slightly off on a tangent.
Maybe I am not remembering correctly but it doesn’t seem that long ago that Scandinavian countries were reportedly among the highest for both suicide and alcohol abuse.
Now they are held up as almost utopian paradises that we should be working towards.
Wonder when the switch came.

Funnily enough, from today's Guardian...

I moved to Finland believing it was a progressive dream. It hasn't turned out that way | Mike Watson

Long hospital waiting lists, extortionate food bills and rising homelessness. Welcome to life under the most rightwing Finnish government in generations, says author Mike Watson

www.theguardian.com

 

[P.D.]

The argument is and has always been what role should the state play and do you want to pay higher taxes for better public services and benefits. UK parties always promise more for less because they know the public won't vote for personal tax rises. I don't think many other countries have a similar setup to the NHS, don't most also have extra taxes for health? I wouldn't mind paying a separate extra tax for it - £20-£30 a month or something like that would raise a fair amount but I'd like to see some proper reform alongside it.

 

[glasgowspur]

Funnily enough, from today's Guardian...

I moved to Finland believing it was a progressive dream. It hasn't turned out that way | Mike Watson

Long hospital waiting lists, extortionate food bills and rising homelessness. Welcome to life under the most rightwing Finnish government in generations, says author Mike Watson

www.theguardian.com

Interesting article.
Mirrors a lot of political issues at the moment with big swings between governments.
The upheaval caused by the jolting from jumping from one side of the spectrum to the other is counter productive.

 

[Baleforce]

Slightly off on a tangent.
Maybe I am not remembering correctly but it doesn’t seem that long ago that Scandinavian countries were reportedly among the highest for both suicide and alcohol abuse.
Now they are held up as almost utopian paradises that we should be working towards.
Wonder when the switch came.

Or maybe that’s what it takes to find paradise

 

[Gutter Boy]

Slightly off on a tangent.
Maybe I am not remembering correctly but it doesn’t seem that long ago that Scandinavian countries were reportedly among the highest for both suicide and alcohol abuse.
Now they are held up as almost utopian paradises that we should be working towards.
Wonder when the switch came.

Thats because they don't see the sun for 6 months of the year. And because there's a bit of a prohibition legacy (prohibition always causes alcholism).

The social and economic cohesion of the counties are probably what stops the winter suicide rate being 100%

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I've voted for both tory and Labour in the past and I didn't vote in the last election. I find that those that lean towards a particular party or ideology let's say often struggle to see the wood for the trees when it comes to critiquing their preferred party.

Sounds like me and my views, though I voted Labour in the last election.

 

[SkipRat]

Ok - less brick in the sea and rivers too then.

Health, education and infrastructure are the basics of life. If they have broken, you don't get much lower than that.

Im sure families that can't feed their families properly due to the cost of living are really going to be greatful their buses are going to run on time.

Whilst I am not saying what you point to is important, and i would be on your side of a debate regarding these issues.

There was nothing in that budget that would make people's lives better.

All the government did was raise money for it self.

Most of which it is going waste.

 

[Kompakted]

Sounds like me and my views, though I voted Labour in the last election.

I think I've just had an allergic reaction to Starmer from the beginning. Two things stood out as massive red flags on my self-entitled-tin-eared-narcissist-dar with him:
1) The fact that I didn't agree politically with a single one doesn't mean I didn't find it pretty alarming the ease with which he literally binned every pledge made to left-leaning Labour members to win the leadership contest.
2) The fact he still decided to go full high-horse over "party-gate" even though he got caught doing this and managed to squirm his way out of it without a penalty notice from the police (FYI - Boris didn't get a penalty notice for the infamous "garden party" either -doesn't mean it wasn't wrong on all sorts of levels).

So while I absolutely wasn't voting Tory, I certainly wasn't voting Labour. Nobody else captured my imagination either.

 

[SkipRat]

I think I've just had an allergic reaction to Starmer from the beginning. Two things stood out as massive red flags on my self-entitled-tin-eared-narcissist-dar with him:
1) The fact that I didn't agree politically with a single one doesn't mean I didn't find it pretty alarming the ease with which he literally binned every pledge made to left-leaning Labour members to win the leadership contest.
2) The fact he still decided to go full high-horse over "party-gate" even though he got caught doing this and managed to squirm his way out of it without a penalty notice from the police (FYI - Boris didn't get a penalty notice for the infamous "garden party" either -doesn't mean it wasn't wrong on all sorts of levels).

So while I absolutely wasn't voting Tory, I certainly wasn't voting Labour. Nobody else captured my imagination either.

View attachment 17952

Boris got slaughtered for having a slice if cake on his birthday.

Yet labour got away with this because "special circumstances"....

So running a country through a pandemic is not a special circumstance?

If Boris was wrong, then drinking beer and take away... IIRC the police commissioner who late got the job with Labour was present as well as letting lwtting labour off.

Amazing how too much sh*t sticks to both sides of the coin.

 

[thfcsteff]

They slowly became some sort of model for those arguing that you could have more socialism without turning into China, Cuba or Venezuela. I think it accelerated during the Brexit debate where Scandinavia's varying degrees of involvement with EU or EEA treaties were analysed by both sides.

But I also think people like to romanticise stuff like New Zealand under Jucinda Ardern being some kind of utopia.

My favourite romanticism in British politics so far, however, has to be "I wish England had Nicola Sturgeon/the SNP in charge rather than the corrupt parties/politicians we have to put up with. Que the SNP/Sturgeons being the only politicians and party being subject to a huge corruption investigation......

Ah yes, romanticism in politics...trickle down economics anyone? It's everywhere.

 

[thfcsteff]

I want to chime in here about Denmark because from everything I've read they're probably more hostile towards immigrants than almost any other country in Europe, even their equivalent of Labour follow along the same lines. From your posts it would go against your views on this (I think) - https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-migration-eu-parliament-election-mette-frederiksen/

In Scandinavia in general tax rates are also far higher on everyone, take Sweden for example everyone pays tax on the first £43K of 32% with some exemptions/a small personal so you'd need to be prepared for the lowest earners to also pay significantly more including those on minimum wage https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/sweden/individual/taxes-on-personal-income

Taxes have always been higher. So has the basic wage. And the services you get in return are of a higher and more consistent quality, not to mention they deliver.

With regards to the backlash on hostility in Denmark towards immigration, there has absolutely been a push back, I don't disagree. I view the whole of Europe as being in the midst of a hard push in such directions. But yes, both point are for sure there to be looked at and discussed further.

 

[thfcsteff]

The argument is and has always been what role should the state play and do you want to pay higher taxes for better public services and benefits. UK parties always promise more for less because they know the public won't vote for personal tax rises. I don't think many other countries have a similar setup to the NHS, don't most also have extra taxes for health? I wouldn't mind paying a separate extra tax for it - £20-£30 a month or something like that would raise a fair amount but I'd like to see some proper reform alongside it.

This is absolutely the core. How much extra do people want to pay towards a society with services, and how much can we trust a government to deliver services with the quality our contributions should yield. Given the last 35 years, it is fair to say trust jas eroded rapidly and people increasingly just want to hear what they want to hear.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The argument is and has always been what role should the state play and do you want to pay higher taxes for better public services and benefits. UK parties always promise more for less because they know the public won't vote for personal tax rises. I don't think many other countries have a similar setup to the NHS, don't most also have extra taxes for health? I wouldn't mind paying a separate extra tax for it - £20-£30 a month or something like that would raise a fair amount but I'd like to see some proper reform alongside it.

Isnt that National Insurance?

 

[glasgowspur]

This is absolutely the core. How much extra do people want to pay towards a society with services, and how much can we trust a government to deliver services with the quality our contributions should yield. Given the last 35 years, it is fair to say trust jas eroded rapidly and people increasingly just want to hear what they want to hear.

A lot of us would undoubtedly be willing to pay more for better services, there just isn't anyone we would trust to deliver them.
It's very much a balancing act and for me it's way way too much in the politicians favour.

 

[glasgowspur]

Boris got slaughtered for having a slice if cake on his birthday.

Yet labour got away with this because "special circumstances"....

So running a country through a pandemic is not a special circumstance?

If Boris was wrong, then drinking beer and take away... IIRC the police commissioner who late got the job with Labour was present as well as letting lwtting labour off.

Amazing how too much sh*t sticks to both sides of the coin.

By his laws Boris was wrong.
I agree and I can see why he could have been cut some slack, however how he handled it was totally wrong.
What in my view is worse is the way every party jumped on it to score points, even when each and every one of them knew that they too were flaunting, bending or just down right breaking the rules.
In a time of national crisis they could not put aside party politics and played it for all it was worth.

 

[Kompakted]

Isnt that National Insurance?

Primary destination of NI payments is to fund your state pension entitlement. Boris Johnson's government made a move to expand it significantly to cover health & socialcare funding but it was a policy reversed by Truss and never picked up again by either Sunak or Starmer.....so there we have it.

 

[Kompakted]

A lot of us would undoubtedly be willing to pay more for better services, there just isn't anyone we would trust to deliver them.
It's very much a balancing act and for me it's way way too much in the politicians favour.

I think this is a big thing. The NHS has had huge amounts poured into it. It's had eye-watering funding uplifts in the last 5 years particularly. It has been claiming it is on its knees financially for probably the last 30 years. I invite anyone to go on NHS jobs and scroll through the vacancies....yes there are some substantive medical posts and some obviously key support roles, but there are far far too many *WTF* roles paying over £40-50K a year.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think this is a big thing. The NHS has had huge amounts poured into it. It's had eye-watering funding uplifts in the last 5 years particularly. It has been claiming it is on its knees financially for probably the last 30 years. I invite anyone to go on NHS jobs and scroll through the vacancies....yes there are some substantive medical posts and some obviously key support roles, but there are far far too many *WTF* roles paying over £40-50K a year.

The big problem with the NHS is that it is rigged to leak all its money out to the private sector - big pharma and a thousand other suppliers. Let it be exempt from tendering and competition laws, and suddenly it becomes well funded at current levels.