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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

markysimmo said:
This lot is just as bad as the last lot !!!

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To be fair, it isn't Ed Milliband's company as such, but NESO is a public company incorporated by and under thr control of Ed Milliband's department and with Ed Milliband as the sole "person of significant control" in his capacity as Secretary of State. So not quite as bad in terms of perceived corruption as that makes out, but to call it "independent advice" on X is highly misleading. Ed Milliband will likely have got to suggest changes to and sign off their final report!
 
Kompakted said:
To be fair, it isn't Ed Milliband's company as such, but NESO is a public company incorporated by and under thr control of Ed Milliband's department and with Ed Milliband as the sole "person of significant control" in his capacity as Secretary of State. So not quite as bad in terms of perceived corruption as that makes out, but to call it "independent advice" on X is highly misleading. Ed Milliband will likely have got to suggest changes to and sign off their final report!
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Independent should be independent.

And have zero to do with with any MP of any capacity.

Is stuff like this, that drives the narrative that climate change is scam etc etc.

Shocking at best.
 
Muttley said:
I have a dilemma with this. I do see this unnecessary administrative overhead with the NHS. However, what I also see is a huge opportunity for interoperability with medical data, and integration with systems that I think will massively improve the entire process.

When you think of the normal scenario. You need a doctor's appointment and struggle to get one. You jump on the switchboard at 8am and perhaps 30 mins later you have an appointment in 2 weeks time, if they haven't lowered you priority and sent you to a locum. When you finally get to the medical facility, the clinician has no access to your history and starts the diagnosis all over again. You probability of being diagnosed corrected and treated correctly is massively reduced. So you end up back again costing even more money to the NHS.

I know my depiction might be a little outdated, but it's directionally correct about what we experience today.

What it should like is us having all of our medical data in one single place, and accessible in any facility. The logic of booking an appointment is driven in a way that you get to see the same clinician if at all possible so you get continuity. That clinician has all of their training to call upon and an intelligent system that is helping them to make sure you get the right diagnosis and treatment.

I've personally been put in positions where I've had to tell yet another GP my own medical history. I've had to tell them what prescriptions I've had previously and I've had to lead the conversation on myself and my data to get their support. Without my context, I just wouldn't have been treated correctly.

My instinct is that the NHS need to plough on with their technology transformation. They are making progress, and it is definitely costing a lot, but it is directionally correct. It should drive a massive change from admin staff to health professionals eventually.
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It's unbelievable how many simple things they could sort out. The app is terrible, I get a monthly prescription and they still can't manage to set up a notification to remind me to order it (yeah I do remember but a push notification shouldn't be hard to setup) or one when my request is approved. It has to be reviewed periodically which means I can't order it through the app but again no notification telling you to book a review etc.

I mean it's 2024 and we're still ringing up at 8AM for appointments at a health service we spend 100bn + on a year yet no one does anything to sort even the most basic stuff.
 
Kompakted said:
So I don't think you can isolate the NHS from the private sector. And therefore you can't isolate it from profit generation. Profit margins for private companies are necessary to safeguard against future uncertainty. Recommended "safe" net profit margin is towards the 10-20% mark depending on the type of business for it to be regarded as safe and sustainable and be able to absorb shocks in future years. A profit margin of below 5% means the business is unlikely to be sustainable and a minor hit to profits in a single year could put it into financial difficulty. Based on the analysis you've provided actually there appears to be very little waste in NHS private contracts with the NHS seemingly able to leverage its scale (and the likliy desirabilty of public sector contracts) in a similar manner to Tesco to negotiate border-line sustainable contracts with contractors given the average profit margin quoted for contracts over £1 million is just over 5% average.
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I did not address the pharma side of NHS spending, which brings a whole other element into the conversation. I concede that the following comment of mine is not especially helpful to our discussion but can't help myself; I do not enjoy seeing a national healthcare system run along the same lines as Tesco with regards to contract and contractors. I continue to believe that as much of the NHS as possible should not be run by private contractors, again conceding that in the world the way it currently stands that is a discussion to have versus a 'utopia' to demand. It all comes back to the direction of travel one believes in...
 
glasgowspur said:
I'm at an age now where the body is feeling the effects of the years, as are many of my friends and family.
It's scary how many are all on the same meds, and sometimes for different "illnesses".
Now, I'm not one for taking meds, never have been, never will be. Even when I have toothache or a migraine I ride it out.
Unfortunately in the last three years I have been diagnosed with a disorder that means I know take one tablet three times a day. I don't like it, but I have to.
Sorry for the long pre amble, just setting the scene.
I've always been wary drugs, what I've seen in the last 5 years has made me even more so.

You MUST take this largely untested drug.
We (big pharma) are not responsible for any ill effects.
It protects others. Lie.
It stops the spread. Lie.
15 million jags to freedom, didn't tell us it was 15 million each.

I am in no way a conspiracy theory nut, there is no hard data to back up that the covid jab has caused any real amount of deaths(I know this, it's my job to track this), that isn't the point I am making.
The point is how very, very quickly we turned to big pharma for the remedy, and for me that is because a lot of people made a lot of money from it, and continue to make a lot of money from it.

The NHS is fudged, I don't think anyone can say otherwise, but we (the public) have this emotional attachment that won't allow us to tear it down and start again.
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Necessary medication is fine by me. I do think people in general should be more self-educated about their bodies, minds, and health. I take medication for two things, but also exercise vigorously 4 times a week, am virtually a teetotaler, am careful with my food, and make sure to create space to allow my mind to breathe (usually long walks).

(This next bit is NOT aimed at you mate, as you've made it clear you are not into such conspiracies)

I always found the covid jab furor confusing AND believe it got caught up in a whirlwind of other issues revolving around seeing some people making tons of money in a short amount of time. With regards to the jab, I believe they'd likely been working on a similar jab for a strain of this disease for some time, and I don't believe covid itself was unknown to scientists. At this point it becomes about paths; one either believes it was 'created' or one believes it 'developed' and that scientists were a couple of steps ahead. I choose to believe that there are consistently several illnesses of this nature around we don't know about, but that scientists do, and that there are constantly remedies being tested and manufactured. I do not think -at that level- there are nefarious agents of evil creating mass diseases to 'control' us/allow us to be 'controlled' by jabs.

There was always an irony for me about people who doubtes the jab/saw it as a conspiracy, when you consider how people eat for example. I'll bet most of those complainers have no idea what goes into their food. I'll further bet that few of them follow a whole food diet, thus eliminating most additives, albeit even there, food processing sees all sorts of pesticides and hormones introduced at growth stages.

A discussion to continue in general IMO...
 
thfcsteff said:
Necessary medication is fine by me. I do think people in general should be more self-educated about their bodies, minds, and health. I take medication for two things, but also exercise vigorously 4 times a week, am virtually a teetotaler, am careful with my food, and make sure to create space to allow my mind to breathe (usually long walks).

(This next bit is NOT aimed at you mate, as you've made it clear you are not into such conspiracies)

I always found the covid jab furor confusing AND believe it got caught up in a whirlwind of other issues revolving around seeing some people making tons of money in a short amount of time. With regards to the jab, I believe they'd likely been working on a similar jab for a strain of this disease for some time, and I don't believe covid itself was unknown to scientists. At this point it becomes about paths; one either believes it was 'created' or one believes it 'developed' and that scientists were a couple of steps ahead. I choose to believe that there are consistently several illnesses of this nature around we don't know about, but that scientists do, and that there are constantly remedies being tested and manufactured. I do not think -at that level- there are nefarious agents of evil creating mass diseases to 'control' us/allow us to be 'controlled' by jabs.

There was always an irony for me about people who doubtes the jab/saw it as a conspiracy, when you consider how people eat for example. I'll bet most of those complainers have no idea what goes into their food. I'll further bet that few of them follow a whole food diet, thus eliminating most additives, albeit even there, food processing sees all sorts of pesticides and hormones introduced at growth stages.

A discussion to continue in general IMO...
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I don't have any great issue with the jab, I have huge issues with how it was used and is still being used. Almost all of them around money.
A narrative was quickly sent out, I agreed with some of the narrative, but I think it was allowed to get totally out of hand and rather than try and control it it was allowed to run like wildfire.
Stoked by the media mainly, because good news doesn't get clicks.
 
thfcsteff said:
I did not address the pharma side of NHS spending, which brings a whole other element into the conversation. I concede that the following comment of mine is not especially helpful to our discussion but can't help myself; I do not enjoy seeing a national healthcare system run along the same lines as Tesco with regards to contract and contractors. I continue to believe that as much of the NHS as possible should not be run by private contractors, again conceding that in the world the way it currently stands that is a discussion to have versus a 'utopia' to demand. It all comes back to the direction of travel one believes in...
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But again, the NHS needs drugs and drugs are largely produced by big pharma. Note, that I say produced. I think the Covid pandemic illustrated that while these drugs are often developed or based on research by small academic teams or independent start-ups, you're going to need an Astrazenica, Pfizer or GSK to provide the funding, production and distribution required to have a product that can be dispensed across thousands of hospitals, pharmacies and other settings. You're also going to need life science companies to do the safety and effectiveness trials. The idea that you can isolate the NHS from the pharmaceuticals industry is fantasy. There would be no NHS without the Pharmaceuticals industry. I saw a comment further back saying they wish more herbal remedies were pursued rather than synthetic drugs. Herbal and natural remedies are available off the shelf in your local Tesco or Holland & Barratt. If you really want advice on them you can pop to your local pharmacist. You don't need a prescription to buy them. That's because they're less harmful to your body to take but they're also far less targeted and powerful.
 
P.D. said:
It all goes into one big pot, a long time ago the government should have created a pensions pot with some of it to invest for state pensions but now it's all just out of general taxation. Might as well merge NI and tax together.
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I think it's actually desirable to merge them. Particularly it would claw back some of the triple lock damage
 
Kompakted said:
But again, the NHS needs drugs and drugs are largely produced by big pharma. Note, that I say produced. I think the Covid pandemic illustrated that while these drugs are often developed or based on research by small academic teams or independent start-ups, you're going to need an Astrazenica, Pfizer or GSK to provide the funding, production and distribution required to have a product that can be dispensed across thousands of hospitals, pharmacies and other settings. You're also going to need life science companies to do the safety and effectiveness trials. The idea that you can isolate the NHS from the pharmaceuticals industry is fantasy. There would be no NHS without the Pharmaceuticals industry. I saw a comment further back saying they wish more herbal remedies were pursued rather than synthetic drugs. Herbal and natural remedies are available off the shelf in your local Tesco or Holland & Barratt. If you really want advice on them you can pop to your local pharmacist. You don't need a prescription to buy them. That's because they're less harmful to your body to take but they're also far less targeted and powerful.
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This is absolutely right, I agree.
You need companies to produce/research/develop, and ultimately manufacture and sell the drugs.
We can endlessly debate nature versus pharma, but we're bopth in agreement that western medicine is a major part of the western way of life. So no argument.

What we have to consider is who has access to what amounts via what channels of distribution. And this part of the conversation takes on two different avenues for me.

1) the whole 'medicine for profit' discussion. We'd both agree that R&D costs money and deserves proper funding, and that ultimately, companies developing medicines will (and should) be fiscally rewarded. But how much? And that brings us to another conversation about plain ol' middle road capitalism versus steroided capitalism/greed...not one to have right here I suspect, or else we'll be writing War & Peace!

2) Within the system, is there enough bargaining/opportunity for choice? Or are decisions being made based on who the provider/proividing company is? Do we have a system which rewards 'friends' or the population? Is it possible to get, for example, generic penicillin of the same quality cheaper from a company without any ties to anyone (obviously this is a fictious example just to model)?

I am not anti-pharma, I am anti the system which unduly overpays and over-rewards certain elements of big pharma. Again, to be anti- big-pharma is almost nonsensical when dealing in practicals...
 
P.D. said:
It's unbelievable how many simple things they could sort out. The app is terrible, I get a monthly prescription and they still can't manage to set up a notification to remind me to order it (yeah I do remember but a push notification shouldn't be hard to setup) or one when my request is approved. It has to be reviewed periodically which means I can't order it through the app but again no notification telling you to book a review etc.

I mean it's 2024 and we're still ringing up at 8AM for appointments at a health service we spend 100bn + on a year yet no one does anything to sort even the most basic stuff.
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Yeah, it's scary.

The only thing I'd say is that the NHS haven't had a serious data breach in this journey so far, as they move from these fragmented and antiquated systems. They've had a few smaller ones. When you think about the Facebook / Cambridge Analytica scandal and many others of its type I reckon the NHS have to have some of the most rigorous testing processes to get things live. What you talk above is messaging / notification protocols. I believe they have historically had some of the worst data breaches in the world.

What's bad is that when I get a prescription from by GP, I take my NHS app with the prescription on it to the Morrison's pharmacy and they just look at you blankly. They just want your name to put on their piece of papers and when you go to pay they just want the first line of your address. In between, you can do 6 weeks of grocery shopping before they're ready. You have to go back in the same queue as the one you started in. They told me recently that "the surgery had just sent 300 over" and could I "come back in a few hours" as they hadn't downloaded them yet. Of course when I went back, they hadn't even started mine. They obviously needed someone in the queue to put something on their piece of paper. You couldn't make it up.
 
thfcsteff said:
Necessary medication is fine by me. I do think people in general should be more self-educated about their bodies, minds, and health. I take medication for two things, but also exercise vigorously 4 times a week, am virtually a teetotaler, am careful with my food, and make sure to create space to allow my mind to breathe (usually long walks).

(This next bit is NOT aimed at you mate, as you've made it clear you are not into such conspiracies)

I always found the covid jab furor confusing AND believe it got caught up in a whirlwind of other issues revolving around seeing some people making tons of money in a short amount of time. With regards to the jab, I believe they'd likely been working on a similar jab for a strain of this disease for some time, and I don't believe covid itself was unknown to scientists. At this point it becomes about paths; one either believes it was 'created' or one believes it 'developed' and that scientists were a couple of steps ahead. I choose to believe that there are consistently several illnesses of this nature around we don't know about, but that scientists do, and that there are constantly remedies being tested and manufactured. I do not think -at that level- there are nefarious agents of evil creating mass diseases to 'control' us/allow us to be 'controlled' by jabs.

There was always an irony for me about people who doubtes the jab/saw it as a conspiracy, when you consider how people eat for example. I'll bet most of those complainers have no idea what goes into their food. I'll further bet that few of them follow a whole food diet, thus eliminating most additives, albeit even there, food processing sees all sorts of pesticides and hormones introduced at growth stages.

A discussion to continue in general IMO...
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They weren't looking at developing a vaccine for a coronavirus at the time Covid broke out and while they do keep viruses under surveillance for pandemic potential, coronaviruses are generally considered low risk from a pandemic potential:
- Humans are generally not very susceptible to coronaviruses, only 6 coronaviruses had ever been catalogued to infect humans:
- SARs & MERs caused short local health emergencies before fizzling out.
- 4 coronaviruses circulate annually amongst humans and cause the common cold symptoms (by contrast, there are over 100 catalogued rhinoviruses that cause a cold in humans)
- The Pfizer Covid vaccine was repurposed from an experimental cancer vaccine using new technology.
- The Astrazenica vaccine was developed from scratch using a tried and tested technique where the rna of the covid virus is placed inside a neutered adenovirus (which is another virus that causes cold symptoms) and introduced into your system to trigger an immune response, giving you antibodies that will attack the covid rna.
 
markysimmo said:
2020 Starmer said he will scrap tuition fees should he get in power
2024, 4 months into a Labour government and he has raised them

Yet another total lie from the Reds, big list starting to take shape already
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It’s almost as if the party in power between 2020-2024 hugely increased the national debt and oversaw a flatlining economy, thus rendering previous plans null and void. (I see the OBR said today that the holes in the spending plans put forward by the Conservatives before they left office may well have crossed into areas of illegality.)

I’d imagine from a simple vote-winning perspective Starmer would love to get rid of tution fees, but with the universities being another area left in an absolute mess by the last government, with many on the verge of bankruptcy, reality unfortunately bites.
 
thfcsteff said:
This is absolutely right, I agree.
You need companies to produce/research/develop, and ultimately manufacture and sell the drugs.
We can endlessly debate nature versus pharma, but we're bopth in agreement that western medicine is a major part of the western way of life. So no argument.

What we have to consider is who has access to what amounts via what channels of distribution. And this part of the conversation takes on two different avenues for me.

1) the whole 'medicine for profit' discussion. We'd both agree that R&D costs money and deserves proper funding, and that ultimately, companies developing medicines will (and should) be fiscally rewarded. But how much? And that brings us to another conversation about plain ol' middle road capitalism versus steroided capitalism/greed...not one to have right here I suspect, or else we'll be writing War & Peace!

2) Within the system, is there enough bargaining/opportunity for choice? Or are decisions being made based on who the provider/proividing company is? Do we have a system which rewards 'friends' or the population? Is it possible to get, for example, generic penicillin of the same quality cheaper from a company without any ties to anyone (obviously this is a fictious example just to model)?

I am not anti-pharma, I am anti the system which unduly overpays and over-rewards certain elements of big pharma. Again, to be anti- big-pharma is almost nonsensical when dealing in practicals...
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I mean, a company always has ties to someone. I think there is an
Mikey10 said:
It’s almost as if the party in power between 2020-2024 hugely increased the national debt and oversaw a flatlining economy, thus rendering previous plans null and void. (I see the OBR said today that the holes in the spending plans put forward by the Conservatives before they left office may well have crossed into areas of illegality.)

I’d imagine from a simple vote-winning perspective Starmer would love to get rid of tution fees, but with the universities being another area left in an absolute mess by the last government, with many on the verge of bankruptcy, reality unfortunately bites.
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That's not what the OBR said. The OBR said the Treasury have a legal obligation to inform the OBR of spending pressures and they committed to tell them about £9.5 billion which was enough to have materially altered the OBR's analysis of Hunt's last budget. The Treasury are independent of Conservatives or Labour. They're part of the civil service.

I daresay any party in power between 2020 - 2024 would have overseen a huge increase in national debt and a flatlining economy. Or have you been living under a rock for the last 4 years?
 
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