Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Danishfurniturelover]

Why I think your in frankly a strange position @LutonSpurs is your complete denial to ever admit Islam might be part of the problem.

I was raised Catholic and I consider that religion to have huge problems with buggering young boys. Said on here before though my wife wanted him to know it(her faith) it was not up for question that he would never spend time with priests alone.

As a man if I wanted to help out on his school sports teams, driving other kids to games I had to do CRB checks because men are more likely to be pedophiles. Never bothered me. But you can't accept that forms of Islam preached in cities in the UK treat non believers as less relevant people?

The fact that the were gangs operating proves it.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

The thing is that this is my country too. Although I'm a brown skinned, Pakistnani Muslim whose first language is not English.

I.dont feel safe here either, especially since the riots last summer.

In the past I've had people not sit next to me on a train (after 7/7).

But I assume it's not safe anywhere. Not because of immigrants or white men. Just coz there are an awful lot of nasty bastads who do bad things of all backgrounds.

Like I said its nothing personal to anyone. It's just how I feel. It's on me. I don't actually feel unsafe around people with brown skin for example if they speak like me, act like me etc. Someone that happens to be Muslim for example- no problem. Some of this may not be particularly rational either. It is what it is. Guy wearing Arab clothes, speaking a different language, long beard, just body language differences that someone that hasnt been born here may have. Puts me a bit on edge. Someone like, say Sadiq Khan to use a famous example, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around. Why? Because yes, he's Asian, yes, he's a Muslim, but he is British, he dresses British, he speaks English with an English accent. There's enough familiarity around him to make him seem reassuring and "im home". It's the pace and scale of the immigration that's the problem i think.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Like I said its nothing personal to anyone. It's just how I feel. It's on me. I don't actually feel unsafe around people with brown skin for example if they speak like me, act like me etc. Someone that happens to be Muslim for example- no problem. Some of this may not be particularly rational either. It is what it is. Guy wearing Arab clothes, speaking a different language, long beard, just body language differences that someone that hasnt been born here may have. Puts me a bit on edge. Someone like, say Sadiq Khan to use a famous example, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around. Why? Because yes, he's Asian, yes, he's a Muslim, but he is British, he dresses British, he speaks English with an English accent. There's enough familiarity around him to make him seem reassuring and "im home". It's the pace and scale of the immigration that's the problem i think.

I would feel far safe around someone in Arab clothing then I would Sadiq Khan, that man regardless of his religion is a slimey politician.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I would feel far safe around someone in Arab clothing then I would Sadiq Khan, that man regardless of his religion is a slimey politician.

Ha, I was just using him as an example. Yes, you're quite right. The funny thing is as I said, that not all of this is rational - as in the guy in the shelwar with the beard might be a top bloke and the guy in the suit might chin you at the first opportunity and take your wallet. A lot of us are drawn to familiarity whether that's actually the right decision or not...

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Ha, I was just using him as an example. Yes, you're quite right. The funny thing is as I said, that not all of this is rational - as in the guy in the shelwar with the beard might be a top bloke and the guy in the suit might chin you at the first opportunity and take your wallet. A lot of us are drawn to familiarity whether that's actually the right decision or not...

My Pakistani dentist has a small beard and it tickles me a little which is ironic as I'm usually rather scared at the dentist.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

The new rules, distributed to magistrates and judges by the Sentencing Council yesterday, say it must 'normally be considered necessary' for the courts to commission a 'pre-sentence report' about criminals if they come from 'an ethnic minority, cultural minority, and/or faith minority community'.

Pretty conclusive that we do indeed have a two tier justice system. The talk of them reversing it is only because they have been caught.

How many other memos like this get sent out amongst civil servants and judges and lawyers and charities and police forces.

If you don't think it is happening all the time it is embarrassing how naive you are, or you are in on it.

 

[johnola]

No chance you get a straight answer to this on this message board !!

Ah now this really is a proper topic. A lot of people come here with homes abroad, and I include Ireland in this and there is no possible way to means test it.

And an Irish friend seeking pensions credit who owns an Island (with his brother) off Donegal).

Effectively millionaires. And my brother, a teacher, with no known connections to any other nation, who is bled dry.

That is not fair. But these are our rules!

And it fudges over the residents.

I also have Pashtun friend who lives in a council house in Woking who often tells me about his Mulberry grove back home….several hectares where he has his ak47 stashed in his family compound.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

That's not new.
Accountability, scrutiny, challenge and critical thought are not new ideas.

What I do think is new is the following polarisation:
- On social media where connections are managed, people operate in an echo chamber
- On media like this (is this social media? I guess so), the opposite is true. There are plenty of people of here that wouldn't be in the same peer group as me, so we get to converse here, and share our opposing views.

If an opinion doesn't stand up to scrutiny, then it needs revision.
Debate of ideas is central to the human condition.

I don't have a problem with challenge. Well, you can be the judge of that in respect of my participation in debates on here. But I think sometimes (and more and more) challenge over-reaches from challenging facts that opinions are based on (which may result in people changing their opinion or not) to challenging opinions or feelings, using facts. There's a difference. There are certain topics as well where this is rife and the problem stems from the fact that if someone feels there is too much immigration, just instinctively. They feel like there's a taboo to that opinion and it's seen as racist and therefore they try and come up with a justification for their genuinely held opinion and (just as if you came up with a story to justify anything you think someone else would frown upon that actually you haven't thought too hard about, you just feel strongly that way, the facts you've "invented" may not stand up that well in a debate. But as people pick at these facts, the feeling just gets stronger. Because it was never about those facts, it was about the feeling and.the resentment grows that they only made up the justification because the "other side" wouldn't accept my opinion in the first place. So you get into these, frankly,circular arguments. And not everyone is that arrticulate. Many people struggle to articulate their views coherently. Particularly under challenge. And aggressive challenge.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Just on the whole paedo debate, which i find hilarious BTW, funnily enough there are cultural differences in how people do their fiddling. Grooming gangs do seem to be a particularly cultural thing. There's loads of white paedos too.

White/british paedos seem to like to do their paedo-ing alone in their bedrooms tossing into a sock over child porn they share with each other over the dark web.

Pakistani paedos seem to like to meet up and make a jolly-old-boys outing of their paedo-ing.

I don't think there's probably proportionately more paedos in one culture over another.

#paedogate

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Just on the whole paedo debate, which i find hilarious BTW, funnily enough there are cultural differences in how people do their fiddling. Grooming gangs do seem to be a particularly cultural thing. There's loads of white paedos too.

White/british paedos seem to like to do their paedo-ing alone in their bedrooms tossing into a sock over child porn they share with each other over the dark web.

Pakistani paedos seem to like to meet up and make a jolly-old-boys outing of their paedo-ing.

I don't think there's probably proportionately more paedos in one culture over another.

#paedogateView attachment 18999

Accept that if your in a gang then it shows cooperation and the fact that you had local councillors doing it and covering it up it shows it is institutional.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I am actually ashamed I voted Labour at the last election. I suppose you could say I at least gave them a chance.

But today's announcement of them treating criminals different because of their backgrounds shows them to be racist.

It is a different thong to screening who comes into the country through background checks before the usual apologists come on.

Labour after today have to be known as the racist party. An utter disgrace and this is just one that we know of.

 

[thfcsteff]

Still no mention of how it is fair that people who have paid into the system for years are still on housing waiting lists when people turning up in the country skip straight ahead and get housed.

I refute some of the suggestions you guys have made in this thread from what iand others can see with our own eyes from what has happened to family and friends. I'm not talking about percentages because every country has its own problems. But allowing people whose histories can not be tracked into a country is madness.

No one has ever said all immigrants are criminals, my wife is one and is not a criminal. But allowing people in without checks is pure madness and we know lots of people who have been targeted by them.

Housing is one of the big issues in this country but none of you will ever discuss how it is fair that people new to the country get housing ahead of people who have been on the lists for years.

You guys are part of a big psyops that you probably even think all the Turkish barbers are legitimate businesses.

It's why a lot of posters tell me that can't even be bothered to engage with you anymore.

I know the feeling.

 

[thfcsteff]

No chance you get a straight answer to this on this message board !!

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/...ns-social-housing-says-government-2024-09-30/

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/...-more-social-housing-than-britons-2024-08-27/

https://fullfact.org/immigration/social-housing-waiting-lists/

I am sure there are situations where migrants from dinghys will get some immediate short-term shelter. Whether you agree with that comes down to your personal opinion.

Suggesting that all get preferrential treatment' with regards to social housing over UK-citizens is highly inaccurate. I've seen the sources which touted it, and frankly, it's the usual whistlers.

 

[thfcsteff]

Is that the RatBatBadger who said we should just send all immigrants away even the legals and give the jobs to brits, even though that would mean a 4m workforce deficit?

Tremendous loss of insight that

A person -BTW- I tried very hard to engage with on a level footing.

 

[thfcsteff]

The last few pages on here absolutely sum up the disconnect and division that has crept into our politics over the years and created growing anger and resentment. There is a growing thing of making people justify their opinions. People get a kick out of asking people to justify a feeling or a thought and then when people struggle to explain it or justify it, invalidate it. I'm a human. I have thoughts and feelings, that I can't help and actually, do you know what, I don't actually have to justify them to anyone.

Immigration. This whole debate about whether immigrants represent a threat or not, what various statistics do or do not say about immigration.....its all gonads.

For me: there's been too much immigration, too fast. It's not the immigrants. It's me.

I don't feel safe and secure in my own country half the time. I don't want to live amongst loads of people that don't look like me, think like me and that i struggle to communicate with. If I wanted to live somewhere with loads of mosques, women with covered faces, halal butchers, chai shops, I'd have stayed in the middle east (where I was born) or I'd have moved there. If I wanted to live amongst polski sklep shops, euro food stores and what have you, I'd have moved to eastern Europe.

I don't want to have to repeat my order 3 times in Starbucks because the batista can't understand me and I can't understand her. I don't want to end up in the wrong street because my taxi driver couldn't speak English.

I recently had a major operation. First one in my life. First time being put to sleep. I was scared and stressed. I've previously had a horrific experience with a foreign doctor when my kid had a seizure and they couldn't bloody communicate. So when I was sent the list of surgeons all but one was Asian or was white but had a foreign name. I didn't know if they were British Asian or foreign. The white ones with foreign names could have been born here too for all I know but I wasn't going to take the chance. I chose the white guy with the Anglo Saxon name. To feel safe.

Am I racist? I actually don't care. I don't care if you can bring me endless stats showing immigration is a positive. It's meaningless. It's not a positive for me at all. Emotionally. If you want to label me for that then go on. I don't give a f***.

Everyone has tolerance levels of varying degrees. More and more people's tolerance levels are being breached. That much is pretty clear. People have had enough of being told what the right way to think is.

The whole Brexit issue is another encapsulation: "explain why Brexit is a good thing AAAAH you can't, you're just a thick racist".

I don't have to justify voting to leave. I can explain why I did if you want me too but actually "i just don't want to be part of the EU and that's all there is to it" is a valid opinion. Whys it valid? Because I was asked one way or the other by my own government and I gave them.sn answer.

And one of the things increasing numbers of people didn't like about the EU is intertwined with the whole gonads of "you're not allowed to have an identity now." We're all Europeans now and that Italian guy over there has the same rights you do here as we are all Europeans aren't we? And waving a St. George's flag is racist and only thick gammon do that.

Funny because I don't look like the Italian bloke. I don't think like him. I don't eat the same things as him, and i can't speak very well with him. But I've just got to sit here, tolerating feeling less and less comfortable, in my own home. Struggling to communicate with people in my own city, feeling like I belong less and less. Pale, stale and male. Gammon. Thick. Racist.

I have to say, this is one of the most honest and open posts I've read here. Kudos to you in terms of taking the time to express your thoughts and feelings on these matters openly.

Mostly, I disagree with the things you're speaking about, and I find myself at the opposite end of many of your thoughts, albeit I understand a couple of them. More than anything, I sensed a real truth in the line 'more and more people's tolerance levels are being breached'. I think that is an undeniable fact, on all sides of the spectrum. I personally hope we one day again find a society which can tolerate differences of self, culture, opinions, anything, far far better than right now. It is very unfortunate that we are where we are, and there is no doubt that the overreach of cancel culture helped create this current climate; but we should also never forget why that overreach happened, and that was because of decade upon a decade of certain people also being told not just what the right way to think or be was, but what was right and why they (by existing) were wrong or offensive to some.

There is a whole other discussion to be had on self-perceptions in the current society, how much is on us as individuals, how much we're driven by doom loops of fear, how much our differences get highlit more than our similarities; is our first instinct to ignore strangers or say 'hello'? To trust them or distrust them until proven otherwise? Powerful discussion points, and frankly I think very dialectic. I think fear is a very powerful commodity, and one which continues to be marketed and dropped on people frequently.

 

[thfcsteff]

I know what's true. I was posing a question of marky.

I also know not trust one little bit our liberal governments. If you trust them and can't see what is happening you are embarrassing yourself.

You see it is a matter of perspective.

And once again do you think it is right people who come to the country get housed above people who have been on the waiting list for years. Because I know for an absolute fact that has happened in Brighton and I don't care what documents you put up from "official" sources.

You see when people lie about one thing I can believe they lie about anything.

You have posted links from the BBC and the Guardian, neither are trustworthy sources and both heavily biased.

So that ends any 'discussion' with you doesn't it. There is literally no point having one, because you're not having 'it'.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/...ns-social-housing-says-government-2024-09-30/

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/...-more-social-housing-than-britons-2024-08-27/

https://fullfact.org/immigration/social-housing-waiting-lists/

I am sure there are situations where migrants from dinghys will get some immediate short-term shelter. Whether you agree with that comes down to your personal opinion.

Suggesting that all get preferrential treatment' with regards to social housing over UK-citizens is highly inaccurate. I've seen the sources which touted it, and frankly, it's the usual whistlers.

Well I know for a cast iron fact in Brighton where that has not been the case an actual real life case and also know people that known others. Actually for a 100% it happened.

I frankly after today's racist government announcement trust our government and its civil servants not to lie or bury the information that have proved their dishonesty.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

So that ends any 'discussion' with you doesn't it. There is literally no point having one, because you're not having 'it'.

Just the same as you and others on your side when they are not prepared to discuss articles because you think the are from the biased media, not your biased media outlets the other ones.

I know for actual facts when we gave had friends and family affected by issues. This is your problem with the government cover ups. It works for so long but as time goes on and more real people are affected by the issues and see it in visuals in real life in front of their own eyes you guys can no longer shoot them down as racist or conspiracy nuts. The cat is out the bag and everyone cam see it.

The amount of people now seeing it and saying it, middle class university educated people saying it in hushed tones, now saying to me things questioning and criticising what has been happening.

And you know what it is people like you guys. It is your fault, you can never for one second concede that you are ever wring about one thing never concede that things have gone to far.

I have always spoken out against Trump but I can more and more see why the middle ground in America voted him in, why the right are rising in Europe. All you guys in this thread think it is because they are racist or are stupid and been conned. No it is the complete failure of the left to deal with issues and to confront its issues.

This on a day the British government has been found to be telling judges to treat minorities differently when it comes to sentencing. Thought you would be up in arms about that as surely it is racist. The is only one reason why you are not and I think it shows proof conclusive you were never for equality. Shame on you steff, shame on you

 

[Gutter Boy]

The last few pages on here absolutely sum up the disconnect and division that has crept into our politics over the years and created growing anger and resentment. There is a growing thing of making people justify their opinions. People get a kick out of asking people to justify a feeling or a thought and then when people struggle to explain it or justify it, invalidate it. I'm a human. I have thoughts and feelings, that I can't help and actually, do you know what, I don't actually have to justify them to anyone.

Immigration. This whole debate about whether immigrants represent a threat or not, what various statistics do or do not say about immigration.....its all gonads.

For me: there's been too much immigration, too fast. It's not the immigrants. It's me.

I don't feel safe and secure in my own country half the time. I don't want to live amongst loads of people that don't look like me, think like me and that i struggle to communicate with. If I wanted to live somewhere with loads of mosques, women with covered faces, halal butchers, chai shops, I'd have stayed in the middle east (where I was born) or I'd have moved there. If I wanted to live amongst polski sklep shops, euro food stores and what have you, I'd have moved to eastern Europe.

I don't want to have to repeat my order 3 times in Starbucks because the batista can't understand me and I can't understand her. I don't want to end up in the wrong street because my taxi driver couldn't speak English.

I recently had a major operation. First one in my life. First time being put to sleep. I was scared and stressed. I've previously had a horrific experience with a foreign doctor when my kid had a seizure and they couldn't bloody communicate. So when I was sent the list of surgeons all but one was Asian or was white but had a foreign name. I didn't know if they were British Asian or foreign. The white ones with foreign names could have been born here too for all I know but I wasn't going to take the chance. I chose the white guy with the Anglo Saxon name. To feel safe.

Am I racist? I actually don't care. I don't care if you can bring me endless stats showing immigration is a positive. It's meaningless. It's not a positive for me at all. Emotionally. If you want to label me for that then go on. I don't give a f***.

Everyone has tolerance levels of varying degrees. More and more people's tolerance levels are being breached. That much is pretty clear. People have had enough of being told what the right way to think is.

The whole Brexit issue is another encapsulation: "explain why Brexit is a good thing AAAAH you can't, you're just a thick racist".

I don't have to justify voting to leave. I can explain why I did if you want me too but actually "i just don't want to be part of the EU and that's all there is to it" is a valid opinion. Whys it valid? Because I was asked one way or the other by my own government and I gave them.sn answer.

And one of the things increasing numbers of people didn't like about the EU is intertwined with the whole gonads of "you're not allowed to have an identity now." We're all Europeans now and that Italian guy over there has the same rights you do here as we are all Europeans aren't we? And waving a St. George's flag is racist and only thick gammon do that.

Funny because I don't look like the Italian bloke. I don't think like him. I don't eat the same things as him, and i can't speak very well with him. But I've just got to sit here, tolerating feeling less and less comfortable, in my own home. Struggling to communicate with people in my own city, feeling like I belong less and less. Pale, stale and male. Gammon. Thick. Racist.

I don't mean to be facetious, but have you travelled much outside of Europe and North America? Have you ever been the only white person in an overwhelmingly non-white city or country? I've spotted your middle east reference, but know that might be being born in say a NATO base in Jordan or in Tel Aviv, which would be quite different.

It's just I found those initial 'fudge me I stand out like such a pasty come and rob me gringo' experiences of what it was to be a minority were major empathy building developments. And also showed me that all those suspicions that way round were misguided, which hopefully most new arrivals here find too.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I don't mean to be facetious, but have you travelled much outside of Europe and North America? Have you ever been the only white person in an overwhelmingly non-white city or country? I've spotted your middle east reference, but know that might be being born in say a NATO base in Jordan or in Tel Aviv, which would be quite different.

It's just I found those initial 'fudge me I stand out like such a pasty come and rob me gringo' experiences of what it was to be a minority were major empathy building developments. And also showed me that all those suspicions that way round were misguided, which hopefully most new arrivals here find too.

- Was born in Yemen. Dad was working for the government there. South Yemen (Aden) obviously a previous British colony and we maintained (presumably still do) significant diplomatic, financial and other support mechanisms there.
- Moved around India, Nepal, Egypt, Netherlands and then back to the UK as dad took a job in the private sector for a large pharma company (he's a vet originally by trade, then qualified as a pathologist, then toxicology and became an SME in tropical disease surveillance and investigation.
- As an adult, I've travelled around India, the middle east, Europe, Africa and America.