Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

We had two strikers on the pitch at different times against Leicester and couldn’t get the job done…

It’s only three games, for sure, but as I said, it’s the common threads that still seem to exist that are worrying.

Hopefully the next three or four games show there’s good progress being made. I’m hopeful we will get something against Arsenal at home; I could see us beating them if everything goes right.

Leicester would have been a win if Romero did what you teach a kid to do
Wouldn’t have mattered the other end. But also solanke was unlucky but picked up his injury in the game. Not sure when though. First game vibes and typical bad luck
Richy missed that sitter at the end with his head which was poor

We could do anything in the next games

Have to keep on playing the way they are coached and make sure no one does something basically stupid. At least concede a good goal

The common thread is a player switching off when they really, really shouldn’t

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I’ve had many debates with you over the last 6 months or so about the quality of our forwards, the ones from last season btw, not Solanke and Odobert. You’ve argued we score plenty of goals which indicates they’re not a problem. But should we discount that completely and wipe the slate clean as you say last season is irrelevant? Should we discount the good things from last season as well as the things we need to work on?

We haven’t played with our first choice attacking options yet IMO but that will be see
But last season doesn’t matter for this season.
New season, some new players, new opposition
All that matters is what happens now
That’s up to the players to execute the tactics or Ange to deal with the players
Ans remember what my argument was.. no striker means it all fails. We have seen that already
I’ve stand by judging this season after 10 games
There are People who think son can play as a striker still …

 

[Jurgen the German]

We haven’t played with our first choice attacking options yet IMO but that will be see
But last season doesn’t matter for this season.
New season, some new players, new opposition
All that matters is what happens now
That’s up to the players to execute the tactics or Ange to deal with the players

I don’t know, it seems like burying your head in the sand rather than admit we have issues we need to fix. I’m stunned you don’t think there’s more to our defensive woes than individual errors. I think most teams are fairly happy to let us have the ball because they know they will get chances against us and they know we will likely miss loads of opportunities.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don’t know, it seems like burying your head in the sand rather than admit we have issues we need to fix. I’m stunned you don’t think there’s more to our defensive woes than individual errors. I think most teams are fairly happy to let us have the ball because they know they will get chances against us and they know we will likely miss loads of opportunities.

They can’t get the ball from us
That is clear . There is great independent analysis of i posted a few days ago
They get it and we pin them back in
But if we have players making poor choices in their passing or missing chances … is that the system?
The defensive issue won’t go away because it’s part of the system. City do it too and have got away with it because they took their chances the other end.
I don’t think, for one second we look like Arsenal in defence. But I’m sure we will score more goals when we have a CF on the pitch
Just need Romero to not be a taco and we will cut down on the goals conceded

 

[Raziel]

Just to clarify, i thought i remebered you bringing up big criticism of Poch in the early ganmes of his second season, i.e. the first two games of the 2015-16 season i think when we dropped two points at home to Stoke when we lost a two gaol lead relatively late in the game and drew 2-2 from being 2-0 up and being totally in control until the last 10 minutes. I remember thinking you were quite harsh in your criticism but you were very lucid and succint in explaining why you were criticising. I found it interesting to compare to now.

I'm not comparing your general criticism of poch's time with us overall, just to be clear but comparing your approaches to the reviews of the two coaches at basicaly the same junctures uin their time with the club.

I would agree with that but also say Poch doesn't have access to the funding that his successors have had, including Ange. Remember the restrictions to our spending because of A) our relatively small ground capacity and B) the fact were were squirrelling money away to prepare to build a new stadium. I would actually think we'd have been hard pressed to find anyone else in world football that pushed us towards the top in those same circumstances. Poch got beaten by Ranieri's Leicester: but so did LVG, Wenger, Klopp, Pellegrini et al. Yes, i'd have liked us to take advantage of the fact that the other big teams majorly faltered that year but it's not like we would have been favourites before that season to finish top 4 let alone challenge for a title. We were never in the title seat at any time, we just made a much better fist of keeping things interesting as late as possible compared to the usual suspects. Also, remember we had Europe that season but Leicester (and Chelsea a season later) had the big advantage that they didn't have those extra games/distractions to contend with.

This is fair - but then you could say that about any manager: "we need to see what they can do when they 'fully have their players'". At some point a judgement is made as to if said manager/coach is worth that backing (especially given our ownership model which means resources will always be somewhat limited compared to some of our competitors). For example, did anyone know how Nuno would have done if he dot more time and backing to get players to fit his system? Would many have been prepared to find out?

This is true. However, we still don't know if Ange can reach Poch's level though..some could argue with good amount of information that he hasn't yet or even can't: remember Ange managed far less games last season in his first season compared to Poch in his first: poch made a cup final and played Europa league games, whilst Ange had far more free time to implement his methods in comparison).

Very true

Ange is certainly a 'Spurs type' attacking manager. But then so was Ardiles, Poch, Hoddle etc. It says a lot about how often grim we've been post Poch that just being an 'attacking manager' is breath of fresh air. Losing in 'Spurzy' fashion also seems more common these days too, sadly...oh well...

Actually Poch peaked 3 years in, but then it was indeed a steady decline until his sacking. I still think he embedded methods kept us in the top four in that CL final season when we really had no right to still be there given our decline in GHod overall performances form from January 2019 onwards, plus the fact we hadn't brought in new blood the previous infamous summer. The writing was on the wall from then, and i have to say sometimes it feels similar to our last few months (albeit Ange is in the far earlier stage in his tenure compared). What keeps the faith is being able to point to games when things DID click and when Spurs were actively NOT Spurzy, i.e. beating a rival well physically and/or tactically. In the same period i could point to Poch games in 2014 and 2015 vs Chelsea, Arsenal (both home and away). I feel like in comparison we are having to really reach to get equivalents for Ange in his equivalent time here at this point. Maybe Emirates Marketing Project and Arsenal away last season?

I hear you on this...but....we have had a lot of 'future players' bought for previous managers (it's what we seem to do most comfortably) but that often DID NOT look like they were really backing said manager or given them time, but more wanting to 'play things safe' rather than take a chance to really push on to next level by buying a player that we had to outbid at least a couple of rivals to buy. I think if most thought only Solanke would be the player we'd buy in the summer who had more than one year of PL experience and who was older than 20...
For me? I feel a little deja-vu here and i'm a bit miffed that the club's approach doesn't really seem to have changed from the Poch/AVB days before the new stadium, when the emphasis then was 'focusing on youth and resale value'. I guess time will tell...

Regardless, i appreciated your detailed reply and thought i'd try and offer the same courtesy even if we might disagree on large bits..

Thanks for the details/thoughts, just a few of points of clarity (and we do agree on large bits)

- A little lost on the comparison is the fact that Ange is a way more proven manager than Poch (comparing when they joined us), the way his previous achievements are dismissed (didn't happen in PL) is a little OTT in my opinion, the guy has achieved things multiple times, much more evidence that it is likely to work.
- Look, no question Poch probably got the wrong end of the bricktiest timing of the ENIC era, the team had peaked, just finished an unbeaten season at home -> no money (going to stadium) -> have to play "away from home" for a full season (Wembley), classic Spurs
- While I agree youth/promise/future players was always a model, it seems genuinely way more intentional/structured today, from Udogie/Sarr to Vuskovic/Yang, we are literally building a model of players of promise for now, plus next season or season after, don't think we have ever done that.

To the deja-vu point, that is the issue, we all feel like we have been here before, we all feel like ENIC has been "close" to real success for a fudging long time, what's different? why should we believe it this time?

To me, this is just personal choice (we can all make the data say whatever we want), not like I'm going to stop following Spurs (fudging made it through the 90s), so I can chose to be doubtful until proven wrong or I can allow them to pull me back in and make me hope .. one more time ..

 

[tommysvr]

Can I ask if you ever actually attend any games in person? I’ve been going regularly for 30+ years and have been a ST holder since 2015 and I can assure you there wasn’t pressure from the crowd for Levy to sack any of those managers I mentioned. If you’re counting a few people on a football forum and are using that as evidence to make your point then that’s completely incorrect. Why are you so aggy in your responses?

Yes, I’ve travelled to London to watch Spurs many times, thanks. I've seen many people mug themselves off with the idea that overseas fans don't understand Spurs. Good to know you're one of them.

 

[braineclipse]

Don’t think counter attacks are an issue myself
We have only faced a few per game and only one has resulted in a goal

Also Vicario has not looked as solid as he did first half of last season on set pieces… but again, no goals conceded from any so far

Not taking our chances is worry but we have also been playing without a striker

Nathan on the Extra Inch podcast made a similar point iirc. Counter attacks haven't been that big of an issue, but our press getting beaten when we're in our settled high press perhaps has been more or an issue.

For me I think the argument that we're just seeing a continuation of our relatively poor form in the second half of last season is overstated and premature.

The system is such that there is a vulnerability to counter attacks and our press getting beaten. That much is clear and should be accepted imo. The magnitude of that risk is an unanswered question.

As was repeatedly described last season our set piece defensively caused us significant problems. I don't think it could be true that we were unacceptably poor at defensive set pieces, defending counter attacks and our press getting beat in the second half of last season. If that was the case along with not scoring enough in too many games our results would have been even worse than they were.

Positive signs on the set pice front. Time will tell if the other issues are sustained issues at an unacceptable level or just a small sample size thing.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Yes, I’ve travelled to London to watch Spurs many times, thanks. I've seen many people mug themselves off with the idea that overseas fans don't understand Spurs. Good to know you're one of them.

I wasn’t claiming you don’t understand spurs, I don’t know where you’ve got that from my post. But I was trying to ascertain where you’ve got this idea that our fans are really impatient and it’s going to be them that decide Ange’s fate and not Levy or Munn/the club hierarchy. Going to matches week in week out, well, you just get a different perspective from following Spurs from afar. When you’re there, you can hear discontent, pleasure/whatever emotion comes from the terraces. Like when people say the crowd were doing the Poznan when we lost to Emirates Marketing Project, in reality it was a handful of idiots. Those that were there would know. Not saying it’s any better or any worse than following from afar, just different.

 

[Jurgen the German]

They can’t get the ball from us
That is clear . There is great independent analysis of i posted a few days ago
They get it and we pin them back in
But if we have players making poor choices in their passing or missing chances … is that the system?
The defensive issue won’t go away because it’s part of the system. City do it too and have got away with it because they took their chances the other end.
I don’t think, for one second we look like Arsenal in defence. But I’m sure we will score more goals when we have a CF on the pitch
Just need Romero to not be a taco and we will cut down on the goals conceded

We don’t score enough from the chances we create because our forwards aren’t good enough which I’ve said many times but people think they are good enough which is their right. Hopefully Solanke will help us be more clinical because right now our wastefulness in front of goal and our sloppy defending is killing us.

 

[Muttley]

I wasn’t claiming you don’t understand spurs, I don’t know where you’ve got that from my post. But I was trying to ascertain where you’ve got this idea that our fans are really impatient and it’s going to be them that decide Ange’s fate and not Levy or Munn/the club hierarchy. Going to matches week in week out, well, you just get a different perspective from following Spurs from afar. When you’re there, you can hear discontent, pleasure/whatever emotion comes from the terraces. Like when people say the crowd were doing the Poznan when we lost to Emirates Marketing Project, in reality it was a handful of idiots. Those that were there would know. Not saying it’s any better or any worse than following from afar, just different.

I go to Spurs maximum 3 times a year. It's normally when season ticket holding mates drop out. What I've always found interesting that the sentiment of fans as a collective in the crowd is very different from chatting to them individually in the pubs before and after matches. The latter resembles more the type of conversation we have online. The collective seems way more optimistic, or just go eerily quiet.

I remember sitting in the South Stand and lambasting Kane for his utter laziness. He was just walking around up front and pretending to compete for his back to goal headers that he had no intention of winning in case he got clattered. You should have seen some of the faces around me when I dared to question the great man. Thing is, I had been an England fan for years. I'd seen the younger Kane who cared, but had also seen the disgrace of a player that played in the delayed Euro's in 2021. I'd seen the whole section of England fans where I was sitting calling him to be hauled off that pitch in the Scotland game. He couldn't even get up for a GB derby. I was also at Nuno's last game when we lost 3-0. Another shameful day for Kane having to watch a 28 year old put half the effort in as Cavani in his mid-thirties.

My feeling is that it would be OK for some of loyal Spurs supporters to have higher expectations on these players. At winning clubs, I think the players feel way more pressure and wouldn't slip into the mode we saw Kane in. It's not just the manager who gets to set that expectation on these highly paid players. After all, it is our hard earned money that pays their salaries whether it's turnstiles or Sky subscriptions.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We don’t score enough from the chances we create because our forwards aren’t good enough which I’ve said many times but people think they are good enough which is their right. Hopefully Solanke will help us be more clinical because right now our wastefulness in front of goal and our sloppy defending is killing us.

We’re he creating the chances we should though because of poor choices
Having a striker as a presence will make a difference on that front but we still need to create better
Twice son, once kulu and twice Odobert last week made the wrong call with shooting rather than passing. That means we can’t even create the chance that the system is set up for and IMO that’s a big big problem
The other one is the speed at which we switch the ball in attacks to has become an issue. It’s regularly one paced. Again a CF wouldn’t fix that, that’s on Maddison and the likes to move quicker

 

[Finney Is Back]

There was fan pressure growing for Jose. For the others there was all obvious factors that led to them being sacked, whether you agree with them or not, it wasn't just a case of Levy being trigger happy (or Lewis in the case of Redknapp).

There was fan pressure for Jose.... but it came much earlier and I don't think anything other than a small proportion of the fanbase wanted him sacked just before a Cup final (something that he has a proven record of excelling in).

Also, it doesn't matter whether or not there were 'obvious factors'. The statement made was that it is not the fans that have led to managers getting sacked, more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy.

@tommysvr's posts countering that seem to just prove @Jurgen the German's assertions to me?....

Cristian Stellini - obvious (so not the fans)
Antonio Conte - boring, clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Nuno Espirito Santo - the most toxic environment we've seen (most of the calls were ENIC out as opposed to Nuno out.... I guess you could argue therefore that was the fans, though not exactly giving them what they want.
Jose Mourinho - timing is up for debate, but certainly wasn't without pressure (agreed, so kind of the fans but not at the point he actually went?
Mauricio Pochettino - many thought it was time for change (so not the fans)
Tim Sherwood - almost universally disliked (again, not the fans)
Andre Villas-Boas - out of his depth, last game an awful 5-0 loss at home to Liverpool (so not the fans, though I was thrilled to get rid of that charlitan)
Harry Redknapp - loved for most of it but disliked and seen as below Spurs by many (so not the fans)
Juande Ramos - clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Martin Jol - poorly handled, but many thought we'd outgrown him (so not the fans)
Glenn Hoddle - initial promise that went nowhere (so not the fans)
George Graham - never wanted, never liked (definitely the fans)

 

[Finney Is Back]

There was absolutely pressure on 4 of them. To say there wasn’t makes you sound a fool. Poch is the only debatable one, so I’ll give you that. Which makes it one example in 20+ years of what you’re saying. Well done.

There is pressure on all managers. The point is that our club has a history of sacking managers the moment the going gets tough. If we use history as a means of predicting the future then we shouldn't worry about the fans getting on Ange's case as the club are likely to sack him before the fans are demanding it too vociferously.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Nuno says hi!

prolonged?!? Blimey! I've had longer nights out!

 

[Finney Is Back]

How would a sacking even work now that Scott Munn is running football operations? Levy has sort of promised us that he is out of the day-to-day in this area. He would lose face if he got back involved and fired a manager over the heads of his direct reports. My assumption would be that it would be Munn driving the decision and Levy backing his MDoF.

I don't think Ange will get fired for the normal reasons. He just won't be renewed if he hits a plateau and we think someone different can take us higher.

Well usually when things get hairy and Levy has a DoF in place.... he sacks the DoF

 

[tommysvr]

There was fan pressure for Jose.... but it came much earlier and I don't think anything other than a small proportion of the fanbase wanted him sacked just before a Cup final (something that he has a proven record of excelling in).

Also, it doesn't matter whether or not there were 'obvious factors'. The statement made was that it is not the fans that have led to managers getting sacked, more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy.

@tommysvr's posts countering that seem to just prove @Jurgen the German's assertions to me?....

Cristian Stellini - obvious (so not the fans)
Antonio Conte - boring, clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Nuno Espirito Santo - the most toxic environment we've seen (most of the calls were ENIC out as opposed to Nuno out.... I guess you could argue therefore that was the fans, though not exactly giving them what they want.
Jose Mourinho - timing is up for debate, but certainly wasn't without pressure (agreed, so kind of the fans but not at the point he actually went?
Mauricio Pochettino - many thought it was time for change (so not the fans)
Tim Sherwood - almost universally disliked (again, not the fans)
Andre Villas-Boas - out of his depth, last game an awful 5-0 loss at home to Liverpool (so not the fans, though I was thrilled to get rid of that charlitan)
Harry Redknapp - loved for most of it but disliked and seen as below Spurs by many (so not the fans)
Juande Ramos - clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Martin Jol - poorly handled, but many thought we'd outgrown him (so not the fans)
Glenn Hoddle - initial promise that went nowhere (so not the fans)
George Graham - never wanted, never liked (definitely the fans)

I think you missed the point.

And I’m doing with this nonsense debate.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Nathan on the Extra Inch podcast made a similar point iirc. Counter attacks haven't been that big of an issue, but our press getting beaten when we're in our settled high press perhaps has been more or an issue.

For me I think the argument that we're just seeing a continuation of our relatively poor form in the second half of last season is overstated and premature.

The system is such that there is a vulnerability to counter attacks and our press getting beaten. That much is clear and should be accepted imo. The magnitude of that risk is an unanswered question.

As was repeatedly described last season our set piece defensively caused us significant problems. I don't think it could be true that we were unacceptably poor at defensive set pieces, defending counter attacks and our press getting beat in the second half of last season. If that was the case along with not scoring enough in too many games our results would have been even worse than they were.

Positive signs on the set pice front. Time will tell if the other issues are sustained issues at an unacceptable level or just a small sample size thing.

The key here for me is not picking up pointless yellow cards in the game so that our midfield can take a tactical yellow card later in the game. Or to foul in a smarter way so that you're allowed 2 or 3 fouls before the yellow. One thing here is to ensure that you're not giving away pointless fouls out wide, in the opposition half but instead only fouling in central areas when you are perhaps overcommitted. This is they way that Emirates Marketing Project have played for a number of years. That is one of the reasons why they are harder to successfully counterattack than we are.

There is a good discussion on that in this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/csxa1u/bbc_manchester_city_and_tactical_fouls_what_do

It is from years ago but some posters evidence that Emirates Marketing Project had 14 fouls to our 4 despite dominating the ball, yet only picked up 1 yellow card.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think you missed the point.

And I’m doing with this nonsense debate.

Then I think you need to make the point clearer.

I think (please correct me if I am wrong) the point being debated was that at Spurs it doesn't tend to be the fans that get the manager sacked. The hierarchy tend to do it before there is a particularly large amount of fan unrest.

I believe that you feel otherwise. Though I don't think your post trying to show that helped to support your assertion.

 

[Muttley]

There was fan pressure for Jose.... but it came much earlier and I don't think anything other than a small proportion of the fanbase wanted him sacked just before a Cup final (something that he has a proven record of excelling in).

Also, it doesn't matter whether or not there were 'obvious factors'. The statement made was that it is not the fans that have led to managers getting sacked, more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy.

@tommysvr's posts countering that seem to just prove @Jurgen the German's assertions to me?....

Cristian Stellini - obvious (so not the fans)
Antonio Conte - boring, clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Nuno Espirito Santo - the most toxic environment we've seen (most of the calls were ENIC out as opposed to Nuno out.... I guess you could argue therefore that was the fans, though not exactly giving them what they want.
Jose Mourinho - timing is up for debate, but certainly wasn't without pressure (agreed, so kind of the fans but not at the point he actually went?
Mauricio Pochettino - many thought it was time for change (so not the fans)
Tim Sherwood - almost universally disliked (again, not the fans)
Andre Villas-Boas - out of his depth, last game an awful 5-0 loss at home to Liverpool (so not the fans, though I was thrilled to get rid of that charlitan)
Harry Redknapp - loved for most of it but disliked and seen as below Spurs by many (so not the fans)
Juande Ramos - clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Martin Jol - poorly handled, but many thought we'd outgrown him (so not the fans)
Glenn Hoddle - initial promise that went nowhere (so not the fans)
George Graham - never wanted, never liked (definitely the fans)

Great post. Provoked some memories there.

When I look at that list, the real root cause comes to mind. It's the hiring, not the firing that's the biggest problem.

Cristian Stellini - so obviously should have gone with Conte. Mason and Wells had it covered.
Antonio Conte - one successful season outside of Italy with Chelsea, but such a bad fit for the Spurs way and the English game. He belongs in Serie A.
Nuno Espirito Santo - as you say, toxic environment. Certainly didn't help when Kane undermined the entire club by not turning up and then just doing his own thing. Nice guy, but wrong football philosophy and lack of charisma.
Jose Mourinho - agree about timing as he can't work with inferior players. Utd was the same. Not sure his philosophy and management style of hanging people out to dry would ever work. Dele should have knocked the living sh*t out of him.
Mauricio Pochettino - great hire, exactly what we needed.
Tim Sherwood - never should have been allowed back with Redknapp after the BS as a player under Hoddle. Definitely shouldn't have been over-promoted to a position where he could stab AVB in the back, let alone run a first team for half a season.
Andre Villas-Boas - perhaps a little like Jose in that he needed better player. We needed experience, not a rookie.
Harry Redknapp - Harry was just a coach who needed a DoF to keep him check. Putting him as a manager of a top 6 club was wrong. Bringing him in like we have Ange today could have worked. Harry left our squad in an absolute mess
Juande Ramos - I still scratch my head what happened. Looked like a decent hire but then went into meltdown.
Martin Jol - a good promotion after Santini left us in the lurch.
Jacques Santini - we will never know
Glenn Hoddle - for me, a good hire but joined in a difficult period.
George Graham - was never gonna work.

Then you look at the DoF hires. Arnesen, Commoli, Baldini, Sherwood?, Paratici, Munn. There is a correlation there of course. The one that got away there was Trevor Birch. He would have been fantastic running our football operations. Shame he took the chief exec job at the EFL. He would have given us all that missing football DNA that Levy will never have.

I've probably listed 20 senior hires there. We may have got 5 or 6 right. That is scary.

 

[braineclipse]

The key here for me is not picking up pointless yellow cards in the game so that our midfield can take a tactical yellow card later in the game. Or to foul in a smarter way so that you're allowed 2 or 3 fouls before the yellow. One thing here is to ensure that you're not giving away pointless fouls out wide, in the opposition half but instead only fouling in central areas when you are perhaps overcommitted. This is they way that Emirates Marketing Project have played for a number of years. That is one of the reasons why they are harder to successfully counterattack than we are.

There is a good discussion on that in this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/csxa1u/bbc_manchester_city_and_tactical_fouls_what_do

It is from years ago but some posters evidence that Emirates Marketing Project had 14 fouls to our 4 despite dominating the ball, yet only picked up 1 yellow card.

Think we picked up a couple of those yellows against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Could perhaps have been smarter about it, but quite pleased to see us have that ruthlessness to us none the less.

Not sure how easy it is to get away with more or that. Some players and some clubs just seem to get away with stuff.

But I think we can and should look to react quicker and better to when the press is no longer working as well either because of yellows, tiring legs or a combination of the two.