Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[DubSpur]

There was fan pressure for Jose.... but it came much earlier and I don't think anything other than a small proportion of the fanbase wanted him sacked just before a Cup final (something that he has a proven record of excelling in).

Also, it doesn't matter whether or not there were 'obvious factors'. The statement made was that it is not the fans that have led to managers getting sacked, more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy.

@tommysvr's posts countering that seem to just prove @Jurgen the German's assertions to me?....

Cristian Stellini - obvious (so not the fans)
Antonio Conte - boring, clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Nuno Espirito Santo - the most toxic environment we've seen (most of the calls were ENIC out as opposed to Nuno out.... I guess you could argue therefore that was the fans, though not exactly giving them what they want.
Jose Mourinho - timing is up for debate, but certainly wasn't without pressure (agreed, so kind of the fans but not at the point he actually went?
Mauricio Pochettino - many thought it was time for change (so not the fans)
Tim Sherwood - almost universally disliked (again, not the fans)
Andre Villas-Boas - out of his depth, last game an awful 5-0 loss at home to Liverpool (so not the fans, though I was thrilled to get rid of that charlitan)
Harry Redknapp - loved for most of it but disliked and seen as below Spurs by many (so not the fans)
Juande Ramos - clearly had to go (so not the fans)
Martin Jol - poorly handled, but many thought we'd outgrown him (so not the fans)
Glenn Hoddle - initial promise that went nowhere (so not the fans)
George Graham - never wanted, never liked (definitely the fans)

You think it's impatience but there's always been factors that led to the sackings and not just impatience at a bad run of results.
This has been done to death in about a hundred different threads so not going to go through the same tired old discussions.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You think it's impatience but there's always been factors that led to the sackings and not just impatience at a bad run of results.
This has been done to death in about a hundred different threads so not going to go through the same tired old discussions.

Like slagging off the club or the players publicly is never a good look for anyone

 

[camspur]

Difficult to say whether we have under performed or not in terms of trophies won.
Since 2008 we've had 16 seasons and those 48 trophies have been won by 11 different teams with 2 of them only winning 1 trophy.
Our league position, however, has never been out of the top 8 and 7 top 4 places.
Look at other teams and I reckon we better most other than City, Arsenal and Liverpool .

 

[Muttley]

Difficult to say whether we have under performed or not in terms of trophies won.
Since 2008 we've had 16 seasons and those 48 trophies have been won by 11 different teams with 2 of them only winning 1 trophy.
Our league position, however, has never been out of the top 8 and 7 top 4 places.
Look at other teams and I reckon we better most other than City, Arsenal and Liverpool .

Putting trophies aside, if we measured how many semi-finals and finals we've appeared in out of the 32 domestic cup opportunities in 16 years, is it acceptable?

I'm not sure it is actually considering our status as a regular top 4 or 6 finisher. Whilst CL is understandably tough, I'm not sure our EL record is much to write home about either.

Perhaps next step is to get way deeper into these cup competitions.

 

[DubSpur]

Putting trophies aside, if we measured how many semi-finals and finals we've appeared in out of the 32 domestic cup opportunities in 16 years, is it acceptable?

I'm not sure it is actually considering our status as a regular top 4 or 6 finisher. Whilst CL is understandably tough, I'm not sure our EL record is much to write home about either.

Perhaps next step is to get way deeper into these cup competitions.

We've been to 8 domestic semis or finals in those 16 years. A semi-final every two years isn't bad, just need to do better when we get there.

 

[Raziel]

Putting trophies aside, if we measured how many semi-finals and finals we've appeared in out of the 32 domestic cup opportunities in 16 years, is it acceptable?

I'm not sure it is actually considering our status as a regular top 4 or 6 finisher. Whilst CL is understandably tough, I'm not sure our EL record is much to write home about either.

Perhaps next step is to get way deeper into these cup competitions.

The cup runs are actually an interesting conversation

- When last I had run the numbers Spurs had hit a combined 22 QF, SF & Finals in the ENIC era, not counting a 2nd & 3rd place in PL.
- I'd argue our cup runs have actually been acceptable, results at the important end, not soo much. Believe we are at 6 FA Cup SF's without progressing now?
- And out of that, 1 Cup win

Statistically we should have fluked a couple more -> there is a conversation here (e.g. how has the fudge awful ETH United side actually won a cup twice and yet in the Harry/Poch/etc era we haven't?)

- It's also worth mentioning that the average through the entire 142 years of Spurs is and average of <1.5 trophies per decade
- If ENIC won 2 in the next 7 years, we would be on point

 

[Finney Is Back]

Think we picked up a couple of those yellows against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Could perhaps have been smarter about it, but quite pleased to see us have that ruthlessness to us none the less.

Not sure how easy it is to get away with more or that. Some players and some clubs just seem to get away with stuff.

But I think we can and should look to react quicker and better to when the press is no longer working as well either because of yellows, tiring legs or a combination of the two.

Bissouma took one. Maddison got booked somewhat needlessly earlier and then couldn't foul Joelinton when he failed with his pressing attempt.

 

[Finney Is Back]

You think it's impatience but there's always been factors that led to the sackings and not just impatience at a bad run of results.
This has been done to death in about a hundred different threads so not going to go through the same tired old discussions.

I think that a vast majority of those managers were not sacked by the fans. The whole point here are that people are worried that the fans will get on Ange's back and then he will be sacked. A few of us are pointing out that whether or not the fans get on the manager's back isn't what tends to determine our leadership sacking our managers.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The cup runs are actually an interesting conversation

- When last I had run the numbers Spurs had hit a combined 22 QF, SF & Finals in the ENIC era, not counting a 2nd & 3rd place in PL.
- I'd argue our cup runs have actually been acceptable, results at the important end, not soo much. Believe we are at 6 FA Cup SF's without progressing now?
- And out of that, 1 Cup win

Statistically we should have fluked a couple more -> there is a conversation here (e.g. how has the fudge awful ETH United side actually won a cup twice and yet in the Harry/Poch/etc era we haven't?)

- It's also worth mentioning that the average through the entire 142 years of Spurs is and average of <1.5 trophies per decade
- If ENIC won 2 in the next 7 years, we would be on point

I did read… a while back admittedly.. that we have lost more semi finals under Enic than in the previous history of the club in its entirety

The guy had the data and I’ll see if I can find it

 

[Jurgen the German]

The cup runs are actually an interesting conversation

- When last I had run the numbers Spurs had hit a combined 22 QF, SF & Finals in the ENIC era, not counting a 2nd & 3rd place in PL.
- I'd argue our cup runs have actually been acceptable, results at the important end, not soo much. Believe we are at 6 FA Cup SF's without progressing now?
- And out of that, 1 Cup win

Statistically we should have fluked a couple more -> there is a conversation here (e.g. how has the fudge awful ETH United side actually won a cup twice and yet in the Harry/Poch/etc era we haven't?)

- It's also worth mentioning that the average through the entire 142 years of Spurs is and average of <1.5 trophies per decade
- If ENIC won 2 in the next 7 years, we would be on point

We’ve lost 8 semis in a row in the FA cup. 5 in the ENIC era (2001-onwards) I believe.

 

[Mcfee]

I think that a vast majority of those managers were not sacked by the fans. The whole point here are that people are worried that the fans will get on Ange's back and then he will be sacked. A few of us are pointing out that whether or not the fans get on the manager's back isn't what tends to determine our leadership sacking our managers.

I think you’re wrong! No, the fans don’t haul the manager into an office and hand him his cards but in every case you mentioned (apart from Poch) the sacking was widely expected and I would say the majority were in favour and the atmosphere (which the fans have huge influence on) reflected that. But it’s a tedious debate at this stage so probably best to leave it.

 

[camspur]

Difficult to say whether we have under performed or not in terms of trophies won.
Since 2008 we've had 16 seasons and those 48 trophies have been won by 11 different teams with 2 of them only winning 1 trophy.
Our league position, however, has never been out of the top 8 and 7 top 4 places.
Look at other teams and I reckon we better most other than City, Arsenal and Liverpool .

When the 16 FA Cup finals have only featured 14 different teams and the EFL Cup 16 teams I think we're actually above average for final appearances with 5 finals.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We’ve lost 8 semis in a row in the FA cup. 5 in the ENIC era (2001-onwards) I believe.

And only 5 in the years before that

 

[Glenda's Legs]

There was fan pressure for Jose.... but it came much earlier and I don't think anything other than a small proportion of the fanbase wanted him sacked just before a Cup final (something that he has a proven record of excelling in).

Personally we could have been 1-0 up at half time in the final and I wouldn’t have been shedding any tears had he been sacked at that point.
Ok slight exaggeration but my recollection on here and in ‘real life’ is that Spurs fans expected us to get murdered by City. I may well be remembering incorrectly but I don’t recall many, if any, comments that we might just do it because Jose excels in finals. We were all buckling up for a mullering.

 

[Raziel]

Personally we could have been 1-0 up at half time in the final and I wouldn’t have been shedding any tears had he been sacked at that point.
Ok slight exaggeration but my recollection on here and in ‘real life’ is that Spurs fans expected us to get murdered by City. I may well be remembering incorrectly but I don’t recall many, if any, comments that we might just do it because Jose excels in finals. We were all buckling up for a mullering.

Exactly, it was a weird timing decision but there was zero logic to the narrative that the result would have been different other than "well, Jose wins finals" to suggest we would seen anything different.

 

[Lilbaz]

Exactly, it was a weird timing decision but there was zero logic to the narrative that the result would have been different other than "well, Jose wins finals" to suggest we would seen anything different.

We had a good record against city though.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Personally we could have been 1-0 up at half time in the final and I wouldn’t have been shedding any tears had he been sacked at that point.
Ok slight exaggeration but my recollection on here and in ‘real life’ is that Spurs fans expected us to get murdered by City. I may well be remembering incorrectly but I don’t recall many, if any, comments that we might just do it because Jose excels in finals. We were all buckling up for a mullering.

Nothing wrong with your memory at all. The only point was that Jose stood more chance of winning than Mason which is fair. Timing of the decision was bizarre, the decision itself wasn’t. Personally, I wanted Jose out after Liverpool at home in January.

The cup runs are actually an interesting conversation

- When last I had run the numbers Spurs had hit a combined 22 QF, SF & Finals in the ENIC era, not counting a 2nd & 3rd place in PL.
- I'd argue our cup runs have actually been acceptable, results at the important end, not soo much. Believe we are at 6 FA Cup SF's without progressing now?
- And out of that, 1 Cup win

Statistically we should have fluked a couple more -> there is a conversation here (e.g. how has the fudge awful ETH United side actually won a cup twice and yet in the Harry/Poch/etc era we haven't?)

- It's also worth mentioning that the average through the entire 142 years of Spurs is and average of <1.5 trophies per decade
- If ENIC won 2 in the next 7 years, we would be on point

That last line is almost hilarious to me. So much brick I see being written and posted about how we don’t win trophies under ENIC. As if we were winning trophies every year before that.

Yes, it’s a justifiable stick to beat ENIC with (if you also acknowledge the good they’ve done) but they haven’t been and aren’t far away from what we’ve been averaging as a club since forever.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Nothing wrong with your memory at all. The only point was that Jose stood more chance of winning than Mason which is fair. Timing of the decision was bizarre, the decision itself wasn’t. Personally, I wanted Jose out after Liverpool at home in January.


That last line is almost hilarious to me. So much brick I see being written and posted about how we don’t win trophies under ENIC. As if we were winning trophies every year before that.

Yes, it’s a justifiable stick to beat ENIC with (if you also acknowledge the good they’ve done) but they haven’t been and aren’t far away from what we’ve been averaging as a club since forever.

From the point that we actually became a top division club….
1950s - 1
1960s - 5
1970s - 3
1980s - 3
1990s - 2
2000s - 1
2010s - 0
2020s (half way through) - 0

We averaged a couple of pots a decade up to the 2000s. <0.5 since then. I think 16 years (and counting) is the longest period since we’ve been a top division club that we’ve gone without winning a trophy.

I’d love us to get back to a couple of pots a decade. My kids (now young adults) have never seen an open top bus drive down Tottenham High road. Hopefully Ange will be the man to change that.

 

[Lilbaz]

From the point that we actually became a top division club….
1950s - 1
1960s - 5
1970s - 3
1980s - 3
1990s - 2
2000s - 1
2010s - 0
2020s (half way through) - 0

We averaged a couple of pots a decade up to the 2000s. <0.5 since then. I think 16 years (and counting) is the longest period since we’ve been a top division club that we’ve gone without winning a trophy.

I’d love us to get back to a couple of pots a decade. My kids (now young adults) have never seen an open top bus drive down Tottenham High road. Hopefully Ange will be the man to change that.

If it wasn’t for the cheating oil/gas clubs we’d have won a league and cup in the last decade.

 

[Muttley]

Nothing wrong with your memory at all. The only point was that Jose stood more chance of winning than Mason which is fair. Timing of the decision was bizarre, the decision itself wasn’t. Personally, I wanted Jose out after Liverpool at home in January.

I guess we'll never know but the strong belief was that Jose had lost the players with his total narcissistic behaviours. They were done with him and his tactics and the only hope we could possibly win that final was if we had sacked him earlier. Mason proved in his 6 games that he could get the changing room culture back and bring some easier tactics for the players. Mason's current legacy is stopping Leicester from getting that last CL place and sending them into free fall. That and demoting Leeds. Not bad for 12 or 13 games.

I still think we sacked Jose too late. It didn't give Mason enough time to get the players heads back in the game.