Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[DeanoAustin]

I think some are underplaying just how strong the goons are at the back. They have conceded just 3 goals away from home in 2024. 2 of those were against us in April (a Raya howler and a pen). And they now they have Timber at left back looks a big upgrade on Zinchenko.

Don't get me wrong, I think we have big problems in our wide attacking positions but yesterday was probably the best defence we will encounter all season. We just couldn't get around or through their defensive line, but I doubt many teams will with any regularity. I have to say it's begrudging respect from me in how Arteta has made them such a solid unit.

As for us, if we don't have the players to play in Anges preferred system (which I don't think we do) he simply has to change it up. Go back to basics, try something else for a few games. 4231 with Maddison as a proper number 10. He is just not in the right areas enough as an 8.

And I guess this is my criticism of Ange. He doesn't and never will make us solid defensively. You'll never see us do what Woolwich did yesterday and we have some quality defenders. I thought, first 15 mins aside, they were brilliant at the back and we could have been there until next Sunday and not scored.

But talk of sacking Ange would be madness IMO. I can't take another go on the managerial merry go round coz it always ends the same. Give the guy time to do the job. And we need to be clear on expectations. Are we expecting to challenge Woolwich or City? If not, we're looking to challenge top 4. Losing at home to Woolwich and away to Saudi Sportswashing Machine, both somewhat unluckily, is not anywhere near fatal to those aspirations.

With this ownership model, ENIC have taken us as far as they can IMO. That's not to say I want them gone. As I always say, there are a handful of owners who can take us forward and dozens who'd take us backwards. But we've got to be realistic. We're gonna finish 4th-7th with any competent manager. And Ange certainly fits that bill even if he has faults.

 

[glasgowspur]

Personally, I don't think it's like AVB although I get the comparison. I think Woolwich defended really well against us and that completely blunted us so we went sideways a lot. With AVB, that was by design.

In the first 3 games, we looked very good for large parts of them and attacked with a bit of intent. We just came up against a side yesterday who, sadly, were too good for us and reduced us to looking clueless by virtue of how well they defended and how disciplined they were.

I also think things just aren't running for us atm, several times yesterday in key moments the spin of ball, a knick off someone, a slip went against us, it has been like that this season.

 

[Cundies undies]

Toothless in attack and a liability in defense. I can't blame the players too much tho (even though I think some are not worthy of the shirt). I'm hoping DL is having an uncomfortable conversation with Ange about his system, if nothing changes I genuinely think it will be a struggle to get 50 points this season, not relegated but no Europe either. Far too soon to pull the trigger and don't want a panic manager change so I'm happy (well at least willing to write of another season) if we take the time to look around and identify who we want for next season, while almost hedging our bets in case Ange comes good.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I also think things just aren't running for us atm, several times yesterday in key moments the spin of ball, a knick off someone, a slip went against us, it has been like that this season.

Agreed. @Bedfordspurs picked me up a few weeks ago saying we needed to give it 10-15 games before starting to judge this season. I think he's right. It's tough to swallow at the moment but this doesn't feel like Ramos, Jose or Nuno territory for me.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Agreed. @Bedfordspurs picked me up a few weeks ago saying we needed to give it 10-15 games before starting to judge this season. I think he's right. It's tough to swallow at the moment but this doesn't feel like Ramos, Jose or Nuno territory for me.

We’ve done well to get rid of so much clutter in this window but regarding the incomings, there’s just no one to get excited about. Fully accept we’ve signed youth so we may not see the benefits for a while. Like you though, I don’t see a lot changing with the current ownership model. We need a big cultural change, not being content with finishing 4th.

 

[JerusalemMan]

The major problem for Ange is the attack. Maddison is not cutting it. Eriksen pre 2020 in that kind of role would be running the show. I recognise that Maddison made some good passes yesterday. Also why are some players refusing to shoot and instead try to pass to Son or Maddison.

Let's see how the attack looks once Solanke is established and his teammates get more used to having him there and using him within the system.
So far he's had one game against Leicester in which he was playing with an injury, and a game against possibly the best defence in the league where he looked to cause trouble for the allegedly unflappable GHod-man Saliba.

 

[metalgear]

We’ve done well to get rid of so much clutter in this window but regarding the incomings, there’s just no one to get excited about. Fully accept we’ve signed youth so we may not see the benefits for a while. Like you though, I don’t see a lot changing with the current ownership model. We need a big cultural change, not being content with finishing 4th.

One of the problem is that the regulars like sarr, udogie, bentancur, maddison, kulusevski, Johnson are not improving. Some actually look worse and others seem to have the wind taken out of their sail. All looks happy in training and on corporate socials, but none of them are enjoying their time out on the pitch. Young and new players like odobert don’t get encouragement from senior players much too.

 

[Yiddo]

I think a lot of the attacking problems will be solved if he stopped the stupid inverted full backs. Let them overlap and bring our attacks inside to shoot. Son’s arguably the best long range shooter in the league and he now no longer shoots from range. Get the ball out-wide, pack the box and keep crossing in.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

It's not so much the individual results (sure, the losses to Arsenal and Saudi Sportswashing Machine were unfortunate but we would be without a win if Everton weren't a shambles at the moment) or the table that have me worried than the general trend. As far as I remember, we never got close to the level we reached early on in Postecoglou's tenure. In fact, it looks like we're getting further and further away from that. Since he's a nice guy and everybody wants him to do well, there's always an excuse/explanation but the bottom line is that, unless things change drastically, it will soon be a year since our last great performance. Implementing a system takes time, for sure, and there's always bumps along the way but from my point of view, it's been a steady decline since last November.

Maybe he can turn things around and I certainly hope he does but the lack of competition for places doesn't feel me with confidence. I can't think of a manager in recent history who made changes to what they thought was a winning formula: Pochettino, Mourinho, Conte... they all persisted with things that weren't working and kept hoping that the tides would turn. And, to be faire, you can't really change your system four games into the season but after such a pedestrian performance, it feels like it will take something special for us to correct the course.

 

[DeanoAustin]

It's not so much the individual results (sure, the losses to Arsenal and Saudi Sportswashing Machine were unfortunate but we would be without a win if Everton weren't a shambles at the moment) or the table that have me worried than the general trend. As far as I remember, we never got close to the level we reached early on in Postecoglou's tenure. In fact, it looks like we're getting further and further away from that. Since he's a nice guy and everybody wants him to do well, there's always an excuse/explanation but the bottom line is that, unless things change drastically, it will soon be a year since our last great performance. Implementing a system takes time, for sure, and there's always bumps along the way but from my point of view, it's been a steady decline since last November.

Maybe he can turn things around and I certainly hope he does but the lack of competition for places doesn't feel me with confidence. I can't think of a manager in recent history who made changes to what they thought was a winning formula: Pochettino, Mourinho, Conte... they all persisted with things that weren't working and kept hoping that the tides would turn. And, to be faire, you can't really change your system four games into the season but after such a pedestrian performance, it feels like it will take something special for us to correct the course.

Someone pointed out a couple of weeks ago that our great start last year wasn't really that great if you looked at the games individually (obviously, collectively, 8 wins and 2 draws was very impressive). Burnley away (5-2) was the only one where we really battered anyone. We had other games like Sheffield United at home, Luton away and Liverpool at home where it was really fine margins that fell in our favour.

 

[Kandi1977]

Rewatch this fixture from 12 months ago, almost to the day (51 weeks ago). We were tonnes better then.

We've barely had one decent performance since that Chelsea game.

We got gifted both goals.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Someone pointed out a couple of weeks ago that our great start last year wasn't really that great if you looked at the games individually (obviously, collectively, 8 wins and 2 draws was very impressive). Burnley away (5-2) was the only one where we really battered anyone. We had other games like Sheffield United at home, Luton away and Liverpool at home where it was really fine margins that fell in our favour.

Brentford, 2-2; could have gone either way. Lots of good signs
Man utd 2-0 win; could have conceded a penalty when ball hit Romero's arm, who knows how game would have gone after that. Stepped up our game in second half and overall deserved to win, but United should probably have scored as great saves made by Vicario (Rashford, Casimero and Varane?)
Bournemouth 2-0 win; Overall deserved to win but they did have good chances to score. We couldn't have complaned if it had ended 2-1 though we also had chances to score more, e.g. Richarlison had a couple of good chances and it was taking him off that soon led to us scoring again
Burnely 5-2 win; deserved but omens shown that we conceded two to them
Sheffield Utd 2-1 win; Spirit to come back with such late goals, but as time goes on this looks like a blueprint game where we concede from such little amount of possession for the opposition and from a set-piece
Arsenal 2-2; the game that gave us all such hope - and made competitors sit up and take notice of how we play
Liverpool 2-1 win; very lucky from all different angle but worrying signs started showing in terms of out attack (doing same things over and over with no effect until Porro crossed much differently to Kulu) and defence (how easy it was for Liverpool to equalise from a set-piece but also create chances even with only ten men). Obviously just beating Liverpool for first time in years papered over that stuff!
Luton 1-0 win; yes they did have a glorious chance to equalise but given we had 10 men for most of the game due to Bissouma stupidity and that we missed at least 3 sitters in the first twenty minutes, the eventual win sholwed great grit which we'd all love to see again sometime! Yes, it was only Luton, but still...
Fulham 2-0 win; very lucky to not concede and it was more our pressing and especially Calvin Bassey's poor touch that gave us the win. Certainly very lucky to win overall
Crystal Palace 2-1 win; very lucky in the end given the late goal and the late chance Porro blocked. Deserved win because Palace were parking the bus but we got through it. Signs showing but we got Bentancur back baby!

There were signs of stuff here and there in thsoe games but a great start though of course those who had a keen eye weren't getting carried away.

I still think it was shocking continued use of the highline vs Chelsea that showed the bad omens for me...

 

[glorygloryeze]

We got gifted both goals.

Much like we gifted them both two if you think about it..plus the 3 at WHL last season and the one yesterday somewhat.
Goals win games and what they certainly do is defend better and shoot more.

Our performances since that game at the Emirates have gotten worse as @Gutter Boy says and the players look more and more like they are second-guessing themselves with every pass, like don't have the confidence in what they are being asked to do that we showed at the Emirates last year...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed. @Bedfordspurs picked me up a few weeks ago saying we needed to give it 10-15 games before starting to judge this season. I think he's right. It's tough to swallow at the moment but this doesn't feel like Ramos, Jose or Nuno territory for me.

Honestly
We saw it last year with some teams
It takes time and games
Hopefully the come we have will help, not hinder

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It’s beginning to remind me of that period too. Teams are happy to let us have the ball because we don’t do anything with it. All they have to do is sit back and wait for our errors.

People aren’t reacting to one game, though. They’re reacting to what’s being going on for quite some time.

But it’s very different
I’ve heard we get countered
Did they counter yesterday and score?
We concede on set pieces … yesterday was the first
The issues are multiple but they aren’t the same

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And I guess this is my criticism of Ange. He doesn't and never will make us solid defensively. You'll never see us do what Woolwich did yesterday and we have some quality defenders. I thought, first 15 mins aside, they were brilliant at the back and we could have been there until next Sunday and not scored.

But talk of sacking Ange would be madness IMO. I can't take another go on the managerial merry go round coz it always ends the same. Give the guy time to do the job. And we need to be clear on expectations. Are we expecting to challenge Woolwich or City? If not, we're looking to challenge top 4. Losing at home to Woolwich and away to Saudi Sportswashing Machine, both somewhat unluckily, is not anywhere near fatal to those aspirations.

With this ownership model, ENIC have taken us as far as they can IMO. That's not to say I want them gone. As I always say, there are a handful of owners who can take us forward and dozens who'd take us backwards. But we've got to be realistic. We're gonna finish 4th-7th with any competent manager. And Ange certainly fits that bill even if he has faults.

We were pretty solid yesterday
We conceded a set piece and one other good chance
This was against top opposition depute them missing their whole team
We aren’t conceding the amount of chances people think imo
But our execution both ends isn’t right

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It’s beginning to remind me of that period too. Teams are happy to let us have the ball because we don’t do anything with it. All they have to do is sit back and wait for our errors.

People aren’t reacting to one game, though. They’re reacting to what’s being going on for quite some time.

And the Solanke slaying has to be on one game

 

[DeanoAustin]

We were pretty solid yesterday
We conceded a set piece and one other good chance
This was against top opposition depute them missing their whole team
We aren’t conceding the amount of chances people think imo
But our execution both ends isn’t right

I don't think anyone is claiming we're conceding a lot of chances. But we are conceding very good chances. Martinelli's chance was from Porro being really poor. On a side note, I thought Porro had improved defensively under Ange but yesterday, he was really poor on more than one occasion. A lot of the time his body shape and positioning was well off.

 

[metalgear]

Lol didn't mourinho say something similar

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Someone pointed out a couple of weeks ago that our great start last year wasn't really that great if you looked at the games individually (obviously, collectively, 8 wins and 2 draws was very impressive). Burnley away (5-2) was the only one where we really battered anyone. We had other games like Sheffield United at home, Luton away and Liverpool at home where it was really fine margins that fell in our favour.

I guess it depends on your approach on football. If you're looking at numbers, maybe the difference isn't that huge (although that would warrant a closer look). But, to be fair, I've never been one for stats and, although my memory could be playing tricks on me, the players' body language and the general impression left by the team was completely different, in my opinion.

When we scored the winner against Sheffied United, it felt like nothing less than we deserved. If we'd scored yesterday, it would have felt like a miracle. That's the difference I'm talking about. I'm willing to admit that this is extremely subjective but that general impression, when put together with the lack of competition for places and the fact that the system seems ill-suited to some players (it didn't flatter Son or Johnson), doesn't fill me with optimism but, on the plus side, I've found out over the years that my optimism (or lack of it) doesn't seem to have much influence on our results!