Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Grays_1890]

Reliant yes, not sure about over reliant. Not if everyone is doing their job and playing the system.

I think that part is key for me too

Players need to learn that its a team game and the manager is the man, I know the manager needs to command that respect BUT I think the previous culture we bred from hiring and firing was one where we almost empowered players too much, they downed tools, manager left, new one comes in, quick bounce and the same again. For me we have fresh eyes and ears and I think its key that we don't allow that culture to bed in here.

 

[billyiddo]

It seems that the tactics are leaving our defense exposed and that the players aren't willing/able/coached to play to the tactics in attack - I don't really know where we go from here but the manager has a huge job on his hands to make something of this season from here

 

[Kompakted]

It seems that the tactics are leaving our defense exposed and that the players aren't willing/able/coached to play to the tactics in attack - I don't really know where we go from here but the manager has a huge job on his hands to make something of this season from here

He has a huge job on his hands preventing this from spiralling into a rapid sacking. It was absolutely awful last night I found myself actually laughing at points as to how bad some of our play was.

 

[Baleforce]

Most of our players would suit a "sit deep and counter" style.

In addition to Son, Johnson, Werner, Sarr, Richarlison all would look far more comfortable attacking in behind gaps on the turnover as all of them have pace/legs and technique that is good enough in space at this level but if asked to probe a tightly packed defence in a high possession team are going to be found wanting.

Only Maddison, Kulu and Bentancur IMO have technique to consistently play the fast give and go interchange football you need in tight spaces when you're dominating possession against a deep team.

Others are inconsistent at it or jury is out on them.

Exactly, why we don’t setup like that I don’t know, we’d have better cover defensively and more space offensively.

 

[Kompakted]

Exactly, why we don’t setup like that I don’t know, we’d have better cover defensively and more space offensively.

Ange: "it's just not the way we play, mate."

 

[DeanoAustin]

It seems that the tactics are leaving our defense exposed and that the players aren't willing/able/coached to play to the tactics in attack - I don't really know where we go from here but the manager has a huge job on his hands to make something of this season from here

Purely speculation based on what I'm watching but it looks like the players are reluctant to take the sort of risks needed to get at teams quickly because the margin for error is so small at this level. They make a mistake and lose it, we're wide open and likely to be punished and they're gonna be the ones taking pelters from the crowd and the media.

I really couldn't believe how pedestrian we were last night and on Sunday compared to early last season. Will be interesting to see if it's the same at the weekend.

If that is the problem, Ange needs to seriously compromise on his principles.

 

[SubZero]

Son’s talent suits a team that doesn’t have the ball. I know I keep in repeating it but he isn’t a technically brilliant footballer, he is a technically brilliant finisher. That sounds mad I know because this guy is 2 footed and worked harder on his game than probably anyone, but watch his first touch and the way he passes. It’s really poor for his level. It’s why he thrives on space because he can put it in front for him to run onto and hit those world class strikes.

I don't think it sounds mad, and it isn't like he has regressed technically. It's just that his first two steps are quite a bit slower than they used to be. Bale was much the same, except for the first touch. When I say technically, I mean like being able to get out of small spaces when closed down by multiple players, feinting, trapping the ball and such, like Ronaldinho, Cristiano and those types, not the basics. So we might think of two different things, mind. But with the ball at his feet at full speed running at defenders, Son is technically great (as were Bale).

To me, it looks like Son is being asked to do things he's not very good at, while he's not doing much of the things he's one of the best at. Running into space, crossing (in my head, he's a more than decent crosser, much more than the decent crosser Davies, who's an awful crosser), and not least shooting.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think it sounds mad, and it isn't like he has regressed technically. It's just that his first two steps are quite a bit slower than they used to be. Bale was much the same, except for the first touch. When I say technically, I mean like being able to get out of small spaces when closed down by multiple players, feinting, trapping the ball and such, like Ronaldinho, Cristiano and those types, not the basics. So we might think of two different things, mind. But with the ball at his feet at full speed running at defenders, Son is technically great (as were Bale).

To me, it looks like Son is being asked to do things he's not very good at, while he's not doing much of the things he's one of the best at. Running into space, crossing (in my head, he's a more than decent crosser, much more than the decent crosser Davies, who's an awful crosser), and not least shooting.

But for son to run into space… he needs space. You don’t get that when you have constant possession against a low block

 

[glorygloryeze]

Purely speculation based on what I'm watching but it looks like the players are reluctant to take the sort of risks needed to get at teams quickly because the margin for error is so small at this level. They make a mistake and lose it, we're wide open and likely to be punished and they're gonna be the ones taking pelters from the crowd and the media.

I really couldn't believe how pedestrian we were last night and on Sunday compared to early last season. Will be interesting to see if it's the same at the weekend.

If that is the problem, Ange needs to seriously compromise on his principles.

Yeah, i do wonder if a very good DM (and a system where midfielders are more distinct in their roles, i.e. great if they can all get up and down the pitch but perhaps some more balance in that at least one is told to hang back a bit more, ditto the full-backs) would free a lot of the players' minds and let them worry much less

 

[Grays_1890]

Yeah, i do wonder if a very good DM (and a system where midfielders are more distinct in their roles, i.e. great if they can all get up and down the pitch but perhaps some more balance in that at least one is told to hang back a bit more, ditto the full-backs) would free a lot of the players' minds and let them worry much less

I think the CM role in that 6 is the most crucial in any "good" side in this day and age and we miss one MASSIVELY IMO. A mate of mine reckons Paulinho has been a revelation at Bayern (in and out of having a knock), he basically takes, gives, gos and crunches, he also holds a clear shape where I think sometime our lot are guilty of running all over the shop, sometimes you just have to mark the space which means you can react to either outcome rather than being sucked in.

 

[Kompakted]

I think the CM role in that 6 is the most crucial in any "good" side in this day and age and we miss one MASSIVELY IMO. A mate of mine reckons Paulinho has been a revelation at Bayern (in and out of having a knock), he basically takes, gives, gos and crunches, he also holds a clear shape where I think sometime our lot are guilty of running all over the shop, sometimes you just have to mark the space which means you can react to either outcome rather than being sucked in.

I think it's less of a "6" and more thar every top side needs a player willing to make himself available to take the ball off the defence at all times, keep it under pressure and either wriggle past the press himself or turn and distribute it quickly and accurately. The difference between every Spurs team that felt like it worked over the last 20 years and those that didn't is that the ones that worked had Michael Carrick, Luka Modric or Moussa Dembele in them. The other teams didn't have a player like that and hovered between inconsistent and dysfunctional as a result.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think the CM role in that 6 is the most crucial in any "good" side in this day and age and we miss one MASSIVELY IMO. A mate of mine reckons Paulinho has been a revelation at Bayern (in and out of having a knock), he basically takes, gives, gos and crunches, he also holds a clear shape where I think sometime our lot are guilty of running all over the shop, sometimes you just have to mark the space which means you can react to either outcome rather than being sucked in.

Agreed. I also wonder if Ange and him berating players saying "stop going backwards" also adds to the confusion. Sometimes you have to pass back to reset, you can't keep attacking full-pelt all the time.

Funny how we've become pedestrian in our attacking/passing when we need to be more dynamic (and often we are fully front foot when perhaps a bit of calm possession would help reset and recharge). The best systems have balance, hopefully Ange is pragmatic and works towards such a balance

 

[glasgowspur]

One of my Celtic supporting mates tells a story about Joe Hart when he played under Ange at Celtic.
In a European game Hart gifted I think two goals and a few other chances because he can't use his feet. In the interview after the game hart was asked about it and hart reply was that it wasn't his fault, it was the managers and the manager has told him that is the way he has to play, and that ange has told him he doesn't care if he fudge up and that he will not blame hart if he does, it's not harts fault, it's Ange's.
It's a bit like Poch and the be brave, we need to dare to succeed.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Most of our players would suit a "sit deep and counter" style.

In addition to Son, Johnson, Werner, Sarr, Richarlison all would look far more comfortable attacking in behind gaps on the turnover as all of them have pace/legs and technique that is good enough in space at this level but if asked to probe a tightly packed defence in a high possession team are going to be found wanting.

Only Maddison, Kulu and Bentancur IMO have technique to consistently play the fast give and go interchange football you need in tight spaces when you're dominating possession against a deep team.

Others are inconsistent at it or jury is out on them.

I’d love to see Maddison do it again (I’ve seen last nights highlights only)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed. I also wonder if Ange and him berating players saying "stop going backwards" also adds to the confusion. Sometimes you have to pass back to reset, you can't keep attacking full-pelt all the time.

Funny how we've become pedestrian in our attacking/passing when we need to be more dynamic (and often we are fully front foot when perhaps a bit of calm possession would help reset and recharge). The best systems have balance, hopefully Ange is pragmatic and works towards such a balance

Issue is it’s our attackers going backwards because the players behind are passing to them so slowly
Just look at the goals from last night and see the difference quick one touch passing or movement does

 

[DeanoAustin]

Issue is it’s our attackers going backwards because the players behind are passing to them so slowly
Just look at the goals from last night and see the difference quick one touch passing or movement does

It drove me nuts first half, I saw Dragusin get the ball twice in a minute or two and there was literally not one of our players moving for it. He delayed and delayed twice for movement, got none and once went square to Davies and the other time went back to Forster. I get that Coventry were set but not one of ours did anything to give him an option.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Issue is it’s our attackers going backwards because the players behind are passing to them so slowly
Just look at the goals from last night and see the difference quick one touch passing or movement does

Yeah, it's bgecome a bit checken and egg. Players stopped running./showing for the ball because the ball never comes, palyers stop passing because the players aren't making runs to get them into space etc etc.

The biggest culprit is often Maddison, but i don't get why Bentancur and Sarr have become like this as well...again, i guess a good DM/6/Palhinha type solves a lot of this...who is that guy for us? Bissouma? Gray?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It drove me nuts first half, I saw Dragusin get the ball twice in a minute or two and there was literally not one of our players moving for it. He delayed and delayed twice for movement, got none and once went square to Davies and the other time went back to Forster. I get that Coventry were set but not one of ours did anything to give him an option.

I didn’t see the game so I can’t comment but the principle you describe is grim
No movement is part of the issue
I think one stems form the other

 

[Yiddo]

Watching the drills they post up on the youtube channel it seems to be putting the ball in a long the floor for a tap in, looks good when there are no fudging defenders in the box.

 

[DaveT316]

Yeah, it's bgecome a bit checken and egg. Players stopped running./showing for the ball because the ball never comes, palyers stop passing because the players aren't making runs to get them into space etc etc.

The biggest culprit is often Maddison, but i don't get why Bentancur and Sarr have become like this as well...again, i guess a good DM/6/Palhinha type solves a lot of this...who is that guy for us? Bissouma? Gray?

Johnny Cardoso … ;-)