Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Raziel]

Yes, but the problem is who is covering that 6 space when Bents is in the 8 space. That is the problem I see in Ange's system. I don't see the other 2 midfielders spending any significant time there. I'm not even sure that is the plan anyway. I wonder whether it is the full-backs job to tuck in and become the defensive 6. Pep does it the other way, where he lets Walker become the centre half and Akanji become the 6.

What is interesting is that Conte was all about zones. He had Bents as a superb number 6 protecting our back four. When he first joined, Bents would position himself well, he would eat up the ground and cover all the gaps. He was also good on the ball. Now we're saying he's not equipped with the right skillsets. Is that really true?

Ange's system (in it's basic form) is 4-3-3 out of possession transitioning to 2-3-5, The FB's do tuck in alongside the 6, then the two 8's need to know if the 6 or the two FBs (who definitively do) move forward into space, they need to swap back (we have seen Maddison and Udogie swap multiple times in an attack)

Bentancur was on the verge of being elite pre-injury, he carried that Conte midfield (Conte's system issue was he pretty much guaranteed the midfield would be outnumbered in most games, so from a possession perspective we would struggle to consistently out possess the opposition and dominate them via midfield, not an issue with Ange, we out-possess everyone). Is Bentancur that player now? don't know, this season will tell but the argument remains that a purely DM minded midfielder could help.

I still think it's a balance issue, who's the right mix between Biss, Bentancur, Sarr, Gray, Bergvall, Maddison and how do you squeeze Kulu into that midfield?

 

[Muttley]

Hojberg did the role you describe for Conte IMO, not Bentacur
Bentacur was the aggressor doing the small amount of pressing conte wanted
I think the talk about the CM is ignoring the issue that the problem right now is everything is slow.
We don’t need to stop counter attacks if we’re attacking better. Hell we have faced 2 per game so far
What we do need to do is move the ball better

I saw Hoj used in different roles through his period at Spurs. When he joined, I thought he was the holder, and under Jose seemed to spend way too much time in the back four alongside the centre halves. Then as he moved more into the orthodox 6 role, he was just getting passed around and wasn't aways even making the effort at times. Rarely subbed, he just played at the same pace for the 90 mins. The period I'm talking about above was pre Bentancur injury. No doubt in my mind, Conte had given Hoj more freedom to be further forward (22/23) and he got 4 goals and 5 assists in the league. That was at the expense of Bentancur who was sacrificed into the deeper number 6 role. However, we did get CL that season.

I remember moaning that Bents had to do the water carrying for Hoj in that 3-4-3 system. It all fell apart when Bents took the 2 injuries though. I'm not sure he has ever come back with some of the sprinting speeds and stamina that we saw when he first joined.

As for your other point, I do agree that we could see less counter attacks if we attack better. We won't eliminate them though and should be setup in a way that we don't look like a rabbit in the headlights when they inevitably happen. Sprinting back en masse can't be our only defensive tactic.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Liverpool, United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa. There's very little difference between Poch and Ange in terms of victories at this stage in their reign.

Hmm, i'm still not sure Ange has achieved signature wins in the same way Poch did vs Arsenal, Chelsea and to an extent West Ham; games where the opposition's team is better AND there is an aggressive/feverish atmosphere traditionally in said games. That takes a certain approach AND tactical setup to overcome.
Ange came in on the backdrop of us really playing very timidly and defensively and so by default Ange's general appraoch is/was a big breath of fresh air, and remember generally the mantra was that we were happy to be 'better to watch' etc .

I have to say Poch by this stage had showed far less tactical naivety than Ange and generally looked better tactically if not actual results..he also was far better in the cups too

 

[Raziel]

I saw Hoj used in different roles through his period at Spurs. When he joined, I thought he was the holder, and under Jose seemed to spend way too much time in the back four alongside the centre halves. Then as he moved more into the orthodox 6 role, he was just getting passed around and wasn't aways even making the effort at times. Rarely subbed, he just played at the same pace for the 90 mins. The period I'm talking about above was pre Bentancur injury. No doubt in my mind, Conte had given Hoj more freedom to be further forward (22/23) and he got 4 goals and 5 assists in the league. That was at the expense of Bentancur who was sacrificed into the deeper number 6 role. However, we did get CL that season.

I remember moaning that Bents had to do the water carrying for Hoj in that 3-4-3 system. It all fell apart when Bents took the 2 injuries though. I'm not sure he has ever come back with some of the sprinting speeds and stamina that we saw when he first joined.

As for your other point, I do agree that we could see less counter attacks if we attack better. We won't eliminate them though and should be setup in a way that we don't look like a rabbit in the headlights when they inevitably happen. Sprinting back en masse can't be our only defensive tactic.

The big part of our defensive tactic that most people overlook is the offside trap.

A lot of those "wide open" counters the opposition is offside (late call system makes us miss a lot of that as viewers), even one of the goals we conceded (Romero error) was just a failure to execute on that. For reference, that is how Villa plays a lot, leveraging offside trap as a core strategy.

 

[Muttley]

The big part of our defensive tactic that most people overlook is the offside trap.

A lot of those "wide open" counters the opposition is offside (late call system makes us miss a lot of that as viewers), even one of the goals we conceded (Romero error) was just a failure to execute on that. For reference, that is how Villa plays a lot, leveraging offside trap as a core strategy.

It's a good call. When I put the sprinting back en masse together with playing the high line offside, it still doesn't say to me "trophy winner".

Also, Villa had one of the highest goals conceded ever to get a CL place. They were way out of the range for the teams that normally get top 4.

It will be interesting to see whether both clubs can drop that goals conceded stat in one season.

 

[Kandi1977]

Hmm, i'm still not sure Ange has achieved signature wins in the same way Poch did vs Arsenal, Chelsea and to an extent West Ham; games where the opposition's team is better AND there is an aggressive/feverish atmosphere traditionally in said games. That takes a certain approach AND tactical setup to overcome.
Ange came in on the backdrop of us really playing very timidly and defensively and so by default Ange's general appraoch is/was a big breath of fresh air, and remember generally the mantra was that we were happy to be 'better to watch' etc .

I have to say Poch by this stage had showed far less tactical naivety than Ange and generally looked better tactically if not actual results..he also was far better in the cups too

Either way, the difference is marginal, and certainly not significant.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hmm, i'm still not sure Ange has achieved signature wins in the same way Poch did vs Arsenal, Chelsea and to an extent West Ham; games where the opposition's team is better AND there is an aggressive/feverish atmosphere traditionally in said games. That takes a certain approach AND tactical setup to overcome.
Ange came in on the backdrop of us really playing very timidly and defensively and so by default Ange's general appraoch is/was a big breath of fresh air, and remember generally the mantra was that we were happy to be 'better to watch' etc .

I have to say Poch by this stage had showed far less tactical naivety than Ange and generally looked better tactically if not actual results..he also was far better in the cups too

You should really look back at those results and games much closer
Poch got beat by some brick sides displaying that naivety you talk about
Stoke twice stings a lot
West Brom too
Poch learned but it took time and changes

 

[glorygloryeze]

You should really look back at those results and games much closer
Poch got beat by some brick sides displaying that naivety you talk about
Stoke twice stings a lot
West Brom too
Poch learned but it took time and changes

I do remember that period very keenly and remember some of those poor results. My point is still that Poch showed more rounded 'highs' and built up more 'credit' in the bank in comparison (especially when you look at the fact he achieved some of those highs with more academy youngsters..)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I do remember that period very keenly and remember some of those poor results. My point is still that Poch showed more rounded 'highs' and built up more 'credit' in the bank in comparison (especially when you look at the fact he achieved some of those highs with more academy youngsters..)

I don’t agree
Poch never had us top.. ever I think
That’s a bug high even if uexpected and not maintained
Then pool and united plus a flying villa is comparable
Means fudge all though unless things improve now

 

[glorygloryeze]

I don’t agree
Poch never had us top.. ever I think
That’s a bug high even if uexpected and not maintained
Then pool and united plus a flying villa is comparable
Means fudge all though unless things improve now

True he (Poch) never had us top...he also didn't say let's carry on with our highline even though we have 9 men, are missing our fastest defenders and in doing so give the one thing that the opposition need amongst their mediocre play: space in behind.

Poch looked like he could come up with a solution to ills; one could argue Ange hasn't looked like being able to since the Chelsea 9 men game...

I still maintain that Poch had more credit in the bank at the same stage given that Ange started well and has progressively gotten worse and worse

 

[Muttley]

True he (Poch) never had us top...he also didn't say let's carry on with our highline even though we have 9 men, are missing our fastest defenders and in doing so give the one thing that the opposition need amongst their mediocre play: space in behind.

Poch looked like he could come up with a solution to ills; one could argue Ange hasn't looked like being able to since the Chelsea 9 men game...

I still maintain that Poch had more credit in the bank at the same stage given that Ange started well and has progressively gotten worse and worse

It's a tough comparison. Poch's system depended on the full-backs stretching the opposition, the strength of the double pivot and then those amazing attacking players did the rest. Whenever you think of Poch's worst results it was because the opposition had negated the full-backs or swamped the centre mids. That is, and what yous ay above.....expecting the replacements to play the same way. Where poch annoyed me was possession for the sake of possession. We used to pass up every opportunity to cross the ball as an example. The ball just came sideways or backwards.

I think it is fair to say that Ange already has a deeper squad, but the best eleven isn't on par with Poch's. That is, after hundreds of millions have been spent since Paratici walked in, a luxury Poch never had until the last year.

It is sort of irrelevant in some ways. It's about what happens next. We know what Poch did next and we had hope. Ange needs to prove he can mould this set of players into something similar, and even go one step further as this time we have move resources.

 

[Mikey10]

I see our attack has been downgraded on the new FIFA game which came out today

Just when you think things can’t get any worse…

 

[Raziel]

It's a tough comparison. Poch's system depended on the full-backs stretching the opposition, the strength of the double pivot and then those amazing attacking players did the rest. Whenever you think of Poch's worst results it was because the opposition had negated the full-backs or swamped the centre mids. That is, and what yous ay above.....expecting the replacements to play the same way. Where poch annoyed me was possession for the sake of possession. We used to pass up every opportunity to cross the ball as an example. The ball just came sideways or backwards.

I think it is fair to say that Ange already has a deeper squad, but the best eleven isn't on par with Poch's. That is, after hundreds of millions have been spent since Paratici walked in, a luxury Poch never had until the last year.

It is sort of irrelevant in some ways. It's about what happens next. We know what Poch did next and we had hope. Ange needs to prove he can mould this set of players into something similar, and even go one step further as this time we have move resources.

It is, I could easily say Poch never adapted post prime Walker/Rose, he refused to move on from the FB expectation even when it was clear the replacement FB's (Davies & Trippier) where not as suited for the system. I'd also say Poch has never fixed the biggest flaw in his system which is what is the final third pattern (his best side's tactic was either get it to FB or get it to Eriksen and hope from there).

Prime Eriksen instead of Maddison in this system? Dembele instead of Sarr (who I think has a lot of promise), Kane instead of Richi/Solanke? regardless of tactics, huge first 11 advantage there.

 

[Muttley]

It is, I could easily say Poch never adapted post prime Walker/Rose, he refused to move on from the FB expectation even when it was clear the replacement FB's (Davies & Trippier) where not as suited for the system. I'd also say Poch has never fixed the biggest flaw in his system which is what is the final third pattern (his best side's tactic was either get it to FB or get it to Eriksen and hope from there).

Prime Eriksen instead of Maddison in this system? Dembele instead of Sarr (who I think has a lot of promise), Kane instead of Richi/Solanke? regardless of tactics, huge first 11 advantage there.

Absolutely.

Perhaps the only place I would defend Poch is the 16/17 to 17/18 transition completely hijacked by injuries. Not sure if you remember the Chelsea game where Poch went 3-5-2 against Conte's team that won the league. The 2 Dele goals etc. Well that 16/17 season we finished with Dier alongside Toby and Jan and the full-backs playing as orthodox wing-backs. I really thought we'd found the Plan B and a system that got the best out of some of the players. Then Toby, Big Vic and Mousa started the season with injuries and we reverted back to the 4-2-3-1 system that clearly didn't work.

It would be interesting to know what formation and tactics would be utilised with this current squad. I just don't see a 4-3-3 with full-backs narrow and attacking forwards wide as our best option. I'd love to see guys like Kulu, Madds and Bergval playing like Son, Dele and Eriksen did with that secure double pivot behind them and the full-backs "owning" their wide areas.

 

[Raziel]

Absolutely.

Perhaps the only place I would defend Poch is the 16/17 to 17/18 transition completely hijacked by injuries. Not sure if you remember the Chelsea game where Poch went 3-5-2 against Conte's team that won the league. The 2 Dele goals etc. Well that 16/17 season we finished with Dier alongside Toby and Jan and the full-backs playing as orthodox wing-backs. I really thought we'd found the Plan B and a system that got the best out of some of the players. Then Toby, Big Vic and Mousa started the season with injuries and we reverted back to the 4-2-3-1 system that clearly didn't work.

It would be interesting to know what formation and tactics would be utilised with this current squad. I just don't see a 4-3-3 with full-backs narrow and attacking forwards wide as our best option. I'd love to see guys like Kulu, Madds and Bergval playing like Son, Dele and Eriksen did with that secure double pivot behind them and the full-backs "owning" their wide areas.

I agree, biggest issue from my perspective in Ange's system. I'm ok with how he utilizes the FB's, it does create an advantage

The challenge is 4-3-3 is a model for Kulu (and he's a form/effective player for us), but he works in the center, so it would seem a 4 man midfield (at least out of possession) makes sense, so do we sacrifice a winger? or does the FB's take more of the winger duties? (counter to my earlier point)

 

[Muttley]

I agree, biggest issue from my perspective in Ange's system. I'm ok with how he utilizes the FB's, it does create an advantage

The challenge is 4-3-3 is a model for Kulu (and he's a form/effective player for us), but he works in the center, so it would seem a 4 man midfield (at least out of possession) makes sense, so do we sacrifice a winger? or does the FB's take more of the winger duties? (counter to my earlier point)

What occurs to me is that you have to play to players strengths. I actually have no problem with Porro drifting into central areas and becoming a midfielder. He has enough ability on the ball in tight spaces and has the passing to be a threat. I just don't see the same with Udogie whose clear strength is powerfully getting us upfield mostly in straight lines. No different from Pep with Cancelo and Walker. Pep didn't try to make Walker a square peg in a round hole. In fact, he made him less of the Spurs player that stayed wide and pushed forward at all times. He helped him to work more with the right centre half. That allowed Cancelo on the other side to become the centre midfielder. He wasn't a great defender but he is superb on the ball.

I do sometimes think that Ange is making his players do unnatural acts compared to their natural strengths and weaknesses. Udogie, Bissouma, Johnson spring to mind. I'm also thinking that the captain, Son, isn't getting this system at all.

 

[Raziel]

What occurs to me is that you have to play to players strengths. I actually have no problem with Porro drifting into central areas and becoming a midfielder. He has enough ability on the ball in tight spaces and has the passing to be a threat. I just don't see the same with Udogie whose clear strength is powerfully getting us upfield mostly in straight lines. No different from Pep with Cancelo and Walker. Pep didn't try to make Walker a square peg in a round hole. In fact, he made him less of the Spurs player that stayed wide and pushed forward at all times. He helped him to work more with the right centre half. That allowed Cancelo on the other side to become the centre midfielder. He wasn't a great defender but he is superb on the ball.

I do sometimes think that Ange is making his players do unnatural acts compared to their natural strengths and weaknesses. Udogie, Bissouma, Johnson spring to mind. I'm also thinking that the captain, Son, isn't getting this system at all.

Always the concern with system managers, hence the need for players for the system. You are right, both Son and Johnson are best when the ball is played in front of them with space to run into, not so much against teams who have given up possession (one of goals is to own possession) and sitting 10 men behind the ball.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You should really look back at those results and games much closer
Poch got beat by some brick sides displaying that naivety you talk about
Stoke twice stings a lot
West Brom too
Poch learned but it took time and changes

We didn’t get continually hammered like we did last season; 3-0 to Fulham, 4-0 to the barcodes, 4-0 down against Liverpool only to come back and make the score more respectable. 3-0 down to scum at home until we were gifted a goal by Raya.

 

[Muttley]

Always the concern with system managers, hence the need for players for the system. You are right, both Son and Johnson are best when the ball is played in front of them with space to run into, not so much against teams who have given up possession (one of goals is to own possession) and sitting 10 men behind the ball.

Personally, I didn't like Conte or his philosphy but he was another system manager. He put the 3-4-3 zonal system in first and then tried to force the square pegs in round holes. That was his way of saying we need to buy a new team of players that fits his system. For me, Ange is doing the same thing but with better players. He's not really playing to the strengths (and weaknesses) of his current squad and fitting a system to them with a view to working towards his ideal system in the future. He's already put his stake in the ground about how they must play now.

You could argue that is why we should keep him. As he gets all these small breakthroughs with these players, then we could end up with something special at the end of it. The other side of my face is saying that I could give Ange the pick of every player in the world and his system won't work. I can't work out whether that is true or not at this early stage.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

True he (Poch) never had us top...he also didn't say let's carry on with our highline even though we have 9 men, are missing our fastest defenders and in doing so give the one thing that the opposition need amongst their mediocre play: space in behind.

Poch looked like he could come up with a solution to ills; one could argue Ange hasn't looked like being able to since the Chelsea 9 men game...

I still maintain that Poch had more credit in the bank at the same stage given that Ange started well and has progressively gotten worse and worse

The line isn’t the issue so far this season

And pochs start in S2 was worse than Anges by some way

He also ended season 1 with 4 wins in 10…which I think is how we ended last season