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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

Surfless said:
If you watch it back it's not a terrible pass, but he misses the first contact and it slips away from him. A rationale settled centre half, given the quality of the opposition, would try to recover legitimately, and if we concede should have the presence to realise he's better value on the pitch and a goal down than 10 men after 8 minutes.

The reality is he's young, he's not played much and he's a fair way from having the necessary confidence to play our way..... Yet. He's very highly rated and intelligent so with time (manager affords this, fans less so) he can become a power house for us.
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My question is how many times in his life (boy to man) has Dragu found himself in a position where he has no "out-ball" to either full-back? Would his body shape been the same if he knew it was either keeper or take the man on? I think we have to remember that one year ago, this kid was playing on the right of a back three. I think these positions he finds himself in Ange-ball are alien to him. They won't be for too long.

Yes, he messed up and probably got a hug from his manager. He'll know next time to give it to Venom and receive it in a wide area and keep the ball moving.
 
DeanoAustin said:
They've 7 outfield players behind the ball when VdV wins it. You also have a massive gap between Dalot and De Ligt that VdV strolls through. Man U were anything but compact.

I'll take your word on their game plan but I didn't pick that up from watching the game. I struggled to understand exactly what they were trying to do. Even on the second goal, we end up with 4 against 3 or 4 of their players. I'm not taking away from how good we were but if United were trying to be compact and play counter attacking football we'll encounter teams this season that do it a hundred times more effectively. Those games will be a better test of where we are under Ange.
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Their plan was to play a mid block in a 4-4-2, a few analysis post game go through it, a few big issues
- Front two basically were too far from midfield 4, left Bentancur constantly open between the lines
- Front two didn't press (didn't have a trigger to press), that allowed our back two to consistently get the ball to Bentancur or FBs which (because their front two were so high) instantly created an overload behind them, that Overload then passed on.
- We also (see diagram in match thread) pressed so effectively it killed their ability to counter (they either had no pass on or we intercepted lots)

United has been one of the best counter attacking teams in the country under ETH, it's literally the only thing they have, that's why they have 2 FA Cups and have actually beaten good teams.
 
Raziel said:
His post match interview he stated that in training Ange emphasized the threat United would have is the counter, and that everyone needed to be aware, and yes, it's the most I've seen Johnson defend, one he cleared a ball in the box, great awareness



That is an utter hindsight statement, United is exactly the type of side we are worse suited for, they don't care about possession, happy in that mid-block, habit of raising their game for top opponents, they are best suited for counter/transitions and have the pace/individual quality to hurt you. That first half was extraordinary, if you didn't know you would have said we were playing a side two leagues below.

I don't think Ange has anything to prove on the system on a per game scenario, the sterner test is consistency, this system works, and when it works well it's capable of results like against United. Can we get this to work more games than not? can we get this to play out in a cup run?
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I will say that I said IF we stuck with the Deki/Maddison/Bentancur midfield up there we'd prevail. I felt Utd were the PERFECT side for us to go at, simply because they lack any identity whatsoever. They get stuck in the worst 'mid-block do-we-don't-we' situations, and don't have a clear philosophy to make decisive decisions.

I am interested in how Brighton shape up, because they just got their 'high line' handed to them on a plate. If they lack courage and conviction, we could again have great success. A fast, early start there would be especially helpful.
 
Muttley said:
My question is how many times in his life (boy to man) has Dragu found himself in a position where he has no "out-ball" to either full-back? Would his body shape been the same if he knew it was either keeper or take the man on? I think we have to remember that one year ago, this kid was playing on the right of a back three. I think these positions he finds himself in Ange-ball are alien to him. They won't be for too long.

Yes, he messed up and probably got a hug from his manager. He'll know next time to give it to Venom and receive it in a wide area and keep the ball moving.
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For me, his biggest mistake was not the first error but the choice he made to try and rectify it. His man was heading outside; just shepherd/harrass him into continuing that direction!
 
Raziel said:
Their plan was to play a mid block in a 4-4-2, a few analysis post game go through it, a few big issues
- Front two basically were too far from midfield 4, left Bentancur constantly open between the lines
- Front two didn't press (didn't have a trigger to press), that allowed our back two to consistently get the ball to Bentancur or FBs which (because their front two were so high) instantly created an overload behind them, that Overload then passed on.
- We also (see diagram in match thread) pressed so effectively it killed their ability to counter (they either had no pass on or we intercepted lots)

United has been one of the best counter attacking teams in the country under ETH, it's literally the only thing they have, that's why they have 2 FA Cups and have actually beaten good teams.
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In fairness, they have that second one because the ref fudged Coventry in the SF...
 
thfcsteff said:
I will say that I said IF we stuck with the Deki/Maddison/Bentancur midfield up there we'd prevail. I felt Utd were the PERFECT side for us to go at, simply because they lack any identity whatsoever. They get stuck in the worst 'mid-block do-we-don't-we' situations, and don't have a clear philosophy to make decisive decisions.

I am interested in how Brighton shape up, because they just got their 'high line' handed to them on a plate. If they lack courage and conviction, we could again have great success. A fast, early start there would be especially helpful.
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United lack motivation/commitment (side full of mercenaries with brick leadership), this has been going on for years. I had no such confidence because as I said earlier, they have repeatedly over years of bad results shown that when the manager is under pressure and when they are up against a better team they retreat into a pure counter attack mode and pull the odd rabbit out of the hat.

This is exactly the type of game Spurs of old fudge up, chance to put down marker, chance to take advantage of top opposition in bad place, just need to be professional and get the job done.
 
Raziel said:
fudge .. brick stat that .. so Conte never won 5 in a row?
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Nah, looks like the best Conte managed was 4 in a row during the run-in of his first season.

Then another 3 year gap until our previous sequence of 5 consecutive wins, in November of Pochettino’s last full season.
 
5 wins on the spin is not a common occurrence - EL group stages will help pad out a few teams runs (think our last run of 5 included 2 EL wins?) but otherwise you need to be a top side to be getting that sort of run together, which we simply have not been for a good while now
 
billyiddo said:
5 wins on the spin is not a common occurrence - EL group stages will help pad out a few teams runs (think our last run of 5 included 2 EL wins?) but otherwise you need to be a top side to be getting that sort of run together, which we simply have not been for a good while now
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One of those wins was in the 2nd tier domestic cup against a lower league side. I don't think we should get too carried away. 5 wins in a row in the PL would be something to get very carried away with imo. 😅
 
Baleforce said:
its more that their widest player should be covered by our widest player, on both sides, its the wingers job to be the extra man there
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It's not always. At times the winger will stay up forward and midfielder come across to help the FB e.g. Kulu will cover and Johnson will stay further forward to be ready to counter.
 
Bishop said:
One of those wins was in the 2nd tier domestic cup against a lower league side. I don't think we should get too carried away. 5 wins in a row in the PL would be something to get very carried away with imo. 😅
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I wasn't talking up our run of 5 wins, just pointing out that unless you pad it out with games v lesser clubs in the cups you don't really get to that figure without being a top team - more in response to someone expressing surprise that we didn't do so under Conte
 
A win this weekend and it will show we have (overall) responded well to the NLD defeat. We seem slightly less kamikaze with out highline.

I didn't watch the game yesterday as i was out but good to see Johnson score again. Shame we didn't keep another clean sheet but we're getting the job done atm. Will be really good to go into an international break on a high.
 
glorygloryeze said:
A win this weekend and it will show we have (overall) responded well to the NLD defeat. We seem slightly less kamikaze with out highline.

I didn't watch the game yesterday as i was out but good to see Johnson score again. Shame we didn't keep another clean sheet but we're getting the job done atm. Will be really good to go into an international break on a high.
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Very few people are noticing this, I think there has been a subtle adjustment

- Both FB's don't seem to be as suicidality high at same time (yes we still play high line, but not both in box), think Porro is the default stay back
- Against certain sides (United example), the wingers are actually helping out a bit more defensively (Johnson and Werner covered a bit)
- That combined with Solanke & Deki pressing so high makes a difference

Need to sort Romero out on the high line next .. (he always moves first)
 
Raziel said:
Very few people are noticing this, I think there has been a subtle adjustment

- Both FB's don't seem to be as suicidality high at same time (yes we still play high line, but not both in box), think Porro is the default stay back
- Against certain sides (United example), the wingers are actually helping out a bit more defensively (Johnson and Werner covered a bit)
- That combined with Solanke & Deki pressing so high makes a difference

Need to sort Romero out on the high line next .. (he always moves first)
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Yeah, interesting observations. When did you first notice this?

Also, what do you mean by the last line re Romero?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Yeah, interesting observations. When did you first notice this?

Also, what do you mean by the last line re Romero?
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It's this season for sure, I started noticing less attacking contribution from the FBs, was trying to figure out if it was a form/orders thing. To me it's tied to Deki in center, he provides more threat up front, so we don't need the FBs as much? (again, combination observation/assumption)

Re Romero, looked at their disallowed goal last night, think one of the conceded goals from set piece this season, a few times when you see us play high line, as they take the still shot for the offside, he's usually the one closest to playing the player onside, he's not trusting the line (again, observation)
 
billyiddo said:
5 wins on the spin is not a common occurrence - EL group stages will help pad out a few teams runs (think our last run of 5 included 2 EL wins?) but otherwise you need to be a top side to be getting that sort of run together, which we simply have not been for a good while now
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Seems like only yesterday that we were putting together such 5+ game winning steaks every season under Pochettino! Although most did coincide with early rounds of FA or League Cups like you say.

Prior to that we’ve only had 3 other winning streaks of 5+ games this century

Redknapp in 08/09: Wigan, Everton, Blackburn, Stoke, Portsmouth
Jol in 06/07: Everton, Bolton, Wet Spam, Braga x2, Watford, Reading
Santini in 04/05: Middlesbrough, Blackburn, ManC, Southampton, Norwich

Then a 12 year gap to

Livermore & Clemence in 92/93
Venables in 89/90
Pleat in 86/87

I’m too young to remember the glory days which preceded those!
 
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